Anyone in the States thinks government ran care is a good idea?

[HDGuy84]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCb1BvmTecA


This is me trying to get in to my health care facility (the VA).

If you apply intellectual honesty and realize the US already has an example of universal care then you'll realize it is horrid.

They can't even handle 7% of the population.

 

[Bjjer]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCb1BvmTecA


This is me trying to get in to my health care facility (the VA).

If you apply intellectual honesty and realize the US already has an example of universal care then you'll realize it is horrid.

They can't even handle 7% of the population.

There are a myriad of reasons the VA is horrible but that doesn't mean our government can't competently run a national healthcare system. The will and money has to be there.

 

[devilof76]

Yes, it does. However, it's not the only (or best) one.

 

[cokebabies]

Which states?

 

[HDGuy84]

There are a myriad of reasons the VA is horrible but that doesn't mean our government can't competently run a national healthcare system. The will and money has to be there.

So you think that even though they can't handle 7% of the population that they can handle 100%? There is no logic there.

Veterans actually EARNED these benefits and are dying waiting for care.

If you have a shelter that has 10 spots and the staff only cares about three of them then someone forces this shelter to take in 200 people how would that work?

I'm tired of people using some other socialized medical system as a standard (which wouldn't apply to the US) when the US has a standard.

Try getting treatment at the VA and you're wait listed- or you're treated like I was in this video.

 

[devilof76]

Which states?

The exorbitantly taxed United States.

 

[ali032373]

I dont think your VA analogy is entirely accurate because the patient base at the VA is different than the patient base in universal care. In a VA system youre dealing with what i would imagine to be a high risk pool of patients- many are already in need of care and many have severe (ie expensive) conditions that require lifetime treatment.

In universal care you'd be treating the entire population, including the young and healthy, as well as many who do not have severe medical conditions. I would think that fact would have some impact on the system.

But i dont believe the OP was specific in his/her criticism that would translate over to universal care- is it the quality of care? Is it the waiting? Is it the cost? Is it how one is treated (customer service)? All? Some combination thereof?

I offer no opinion on the govt's ability to provide quality care in a universal system. I only take issue with the analogy.

 

[HDGuy84]

I dont think your VA analogy is entirely accurate because the patient base at the VA is different than the patient base in universal care. In a VA system youre dealing with what i would imagine to be a high risk pool of patients- many are already in need of care and many have severe (ie expensive) conditions that require lifetime treatment.

In universal care you'd be treating the entire population, including the young and healthy, as well as many who do not have severe medical conditions. I would think that fact would have some impact on the system.

But i dont believe the OP was specific in his/her criticism that would translate over to universal care- is it the quality of care? Is it the waiting? Is it the cost? Is it how one is treated (customer service)? All? Some combination thereof?

I offer no opinion on the govt's ability to provide quality care in a universal system. I only take issue with the analogy.

I recognize perhaps I wasn't fully clear. Thanks. I'll do it bullet point style.

- Cost/Access: The VA has a lot of issues with wait lists. Veterans dying waiting for care, turned away from care, etc. This is for routine care. I was put on a wait list to get cancer treatments and when I said that wasn't acceptable they told me (and I have more audio recordings) "heh, well tough luck." I can source out numerous incidents where veterans were put on wait lists, denied, turned away from the health care system they are legitimately entitled to and earned. So they made the the VA Choice system- great right?

Well, no. There is a wait list to get on to the wait list to access VA Choice (a program made if there is over 30 day wait for ANY service you are referred out to civilian care at no cost). I needed to get an MRI to check on my tumors and they had a 58 day wait. So they said they'd refer me to VA Choice. It takes 4-6 business days to get the consult in, another 4-6 business days to "process the consult" then they have to place the consult to civilian providers who choose to accept it. This isn't unreasonable because it takes them up to 18 months to get paid by the VA for these services. Then you have to wait for the provider that accepted the consult (if there is one) to get you which can be up to two weeks. But then my consult for VA Choice got canceled because I was within 30 days of a VA appointment at that point. Come my appointment time they leave me a voice mail that said there was issues with the machine and I'd need to be scheduled to go through the VA Choice and the exact same process listed above. Come to find out I check my medical record and Radiology marked me as "Patient No Show". There was never an issue with the machine, they call the veteran and tell them the appointment cannot happen for one reason or another and then illegally input knowingly false information that I just didn't show up.

This is the US Government ran health care system- so if the US Government ran ALL health care for ALL Americans then how can you say this wouldn't happen in a larger sense?

Here is a recent discussion I had- this is my personal experience (I didn't detail the VA Choice with this guy, because it was pointless as he kept going to "well black people don't get any medical care" which shows he is a moron).

In early September 2016 I was rear ended by a little girl texting and driving (third person she did that to in three months). Sucks, but at the time I thought "Hey, better me than someone else." For ease I'm going to do the next in bullet points:
- Next day I go to VA Hines in Chicago to visit the ER. Mind you I had been trying to get a primary care appointment for over FOUR MONTHS prior to this and no one would even return my call.
- I was given one xray. One. Single. I had hit my face on the steering wheel, my nose was clearly broken, I had swelling on my clavicle and my neck/back/shoulder was in immense pain. I was told "follow up with your primary care."
- 5 weeks later and 12 calls later to try to get in I finally get seen. Great, right? Except now my soft tissue injuries were worse. I was passing blood (sign of internal injuries amongst other things), random nosebleeds, coughing up blood, a few other awesome things... five weeks folks.
- Referred to radiology for cat-scans and MRIs. Cool, it's over a month since the wreck and just now getting these things. By this point it was hard to turn my neck, use my arm, stand up straight and my abdomen was in pain. But hey, whatever. Soldier on.
- Oh but it is 5-6 weeks to get in for a cat-scan and MRI. Come appointment time for each study they call me and tell me "machine issues, have to reschedule. call back in a few days." Sigh...
- After over a week of trying to call they finally answer the phone. Mind you I left SIX messages for a return call and never got one. Someone picks up the phone and puts me on hold... for 16 minutes. They come back to tell me my consult has expired and I need to see my primary care again to get "fresh consults." Two weeks of phone calls and I finally get the consults back in the system- and also check my record. Radiology knowingly (and illegally) input false information into my medical record: "Patient No-Show." So they call me to cancel and then said I didn't show up- wait list folks. Luckily I record all my calls with the VA.
- Once I call them out a woman said to me "yeah yeah, whatever man, do you want the appointment or do you want me to hang up on you." This is routinely the behavior of VA employees (and at Hines I've had four different departments say the same thing to me). In fact the Optometry Department told me that and another veteran on the phone "If you call me I'm just going to hang up on you."
- So I finally get in with my scans. They show the injuries I listed above. Mind you this is January 2017- five months after I was in the wreck. It took FIVE MONTHS to get care.
Results of the scan, in addition to the injuries I had? Hey, good news Troy, you have two tumors on your spine (one that was concerning) and one in your shoulder.
- So after doing the preop with my primary (lab work, ultrasound, etc) I call to schedule my surgeries (they want to do my arm, shoulder repair, shoulder tumor and back all on the same day- thats the watered down its actually about 6 cases). I leave 5 messages over 8 business days. I call the Patient Advocate and leave 3 messages over 4 days. I use the messaging system on the site- read receipt goes through but no reply. I show up for appointments I was told about on the phone but was never put in the system, therefore taking time off work and driving over two hours to get stuff done. I go there and get told they're not available to talk to me. Finally I call my Congressman's office and he personally calls and magically I get a call back.
- "Yeah this is Mr. Trax, I was told to call you."
- Yes sir, I need to schedule my surgery.
"Are you Derek? Look Derek we can get to your knee about August."
- No sir my name is M***m (last 4 of social provided)
"Oh had wrong record up, sorry Trevor."
- My name is Troy
"Yeah yeah. You need preop clearance" CLICK (he hung up on me). Mind you he didn't even review my record as that was all the last stuff I did and I was looking right at it. Intentional negligence.
So I call my Congressman back, this time Trax calls me again:
*laugh* "Well, maybe learn how the VA works."
- I worked there for six years, I am well aware that employees are able to perform horribly and not get reprimanded. Look I've been trying since the beginning of September to get care and now you tell me I have a potentially serious deal so I need to get in.
"Do you know how many people we treat? Plus I was on vacation and going on vacation next month."
- Thats nice, but I'd like to get this handled.
"Don't be so dramatic. Call back when you do all your preop."
- I've had it all done, everything is within normal ranges. I can explain the science of it to you if you like, or you can open the correct record and review it thoroughly.
"I don't have time to review everyone's record before making recommendations."

This is how the government runs healthcare.

 

[jimmie_dimmick]

A public option / government healthcare is more and more becoming a topic of interest at the state level. Where the Feds won't bat an eye at the possibility of universal healthcare, state governments are looking at ways of doing-so.

To answer your question though: yes, government run healthcare is a good idea. Americans pay the most for healthcare and are one of the most ill populations of an industrialized nation. Part of that is due to people not being able to afford healthcare and do not seek help until they are incredibly ill.


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[HDGuy84]

A public option / government healthcare is more and more becoming a topic of interest at the state level. Where the Feds won't bat an eye at the possibility of universal healthcare, state governments are looking at ways of doing-so.

To answer your question though: yes, government run healthcare is a good idea. Americans pay the most for healthcare and are one of the most ill populations of an industrialized nation. Part of that is due to people not being able to afford healthcare and do not seek help until they are incredibly ill.


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I advocate for more affordable and readily accessible health care- not "free" because the problem with that is eventually you'll run out of someone's money.

I am all for State's rights vs Fed, but how exactly do you think it could work? I'm intrigued on what your plan would be.

 

[TurdFurgusonsHat]

Mountain Dew/Cheetos, laziness/lack of excercise, lack of personal accountability/discipline, tobacco. Take care of these and health care costs would drop over 50% in the US. Probably more.

But OP is right, can't do free health care. Too many people jobbing the system. Contribute nothing, and bring your taxpayer funded children to the ER with a hangnail or seeking a cure for the common cold.

 

[HDGuy84]

Mountain Dew/Cheetos, laziness/lack of excercise, lack of personal accountability/discipline, tobacco. Take care of these and health care costs would drop over 50% in the US. Probably more.

But OP is right, can't do free health care. Too many people jobbing the system. Contribute nothing, and bring your taxpayer funded children to the ER with a hangnail or seeking a cure for the common cold.

Can we be best friends?

 

[Snake Plissken]

The government can't even run their own post office efficiently.

 

[HDGuy84]

Correct. I've just seen a lot of people not apply any sort of intellectual honesty and say "I want free/gov/universal care!"

But they refuse to recognize the standard bearer is absolutely the VA.

 

[EVILFACE]

Find a way to lower the cost of heathcare first, then worry about being able to afford it later.

 

[ali032373]

Do you think that veterans would be better served if the VA was privatized?

Or do you think a better course would be the government retaining control, just running the VA better to serve the patients?

Note that although the govt is typically highly inefficient, the govt's duty is to the people it serves, to whom it is accountable- you dont like things, you can effecuate change with your vote, organizing, petitioning, etc.

Private companies are likely to be highly more efficient. However, they hold a duty not to the people they serve. They hold a fiduciary duty to their stockholders and investors. They are obligated by law to do so. This means that their job is to be profitable, not necessarily provide the best care. You can change companies, but the duty remains the same.

 

[HDGuy84]

Do you think that veterans would be better served if the VA was privatized?

Or do you think a better course would be the government retaining control, just running the VA better to serve the patients?

Note that although the govt is typically highly inefficient, the govt's duty is to the people it serves, to whom it is accountable- you dont like things, you can effecuate change with your vote, organizing, petitioning, etc.

Private companies are likely to be highly more efficient. However, they hold a duty not to the people they serve. They hold a fiduciary duty to their stockholders and investors. They are obligated by law to do so. This means that their job is to be profitable, not necessarily provide the best care. You can change companies, but the duty remains the same.

I am not saying I have the answer- yet I am knowledgeable on the issue. I see pros/cons for eliminating the VA and going private, the main pro would be then the VA would have to "Compete" for patients and therefore "up their game."

The issue, mainly, is accountability. I worked there for years and witnessed heinous acts by employees that would go unpunished. It is significantly difficult to even verbally reprimand an employee for theft, abuse, dishonesty, etc. I was a supervisor at one point and was officially blocked from reprimanding an employee that told a veteran patient he should have died instead of being a burden. That individual is still there and got promoted as well as a bonus.

Like with tenure/teacher's unions I think there is way too much protection for the bad and not enough reward for the good.

 

[Mad Old Lu]

Sorry you have to deal with all of that.

I honestly don’t know if Govt run healthcare would work. I mean, it could, intellectually speaking. I think Bjjer is right—the will and the money has to be there. Unfortunately I think the VA system is a whole other animal and probably not a good microcosm of how things would run. Right now the VA is woefully underfunded. Just like politicians are now saying that they will cut programs like Meals on Wheels because they don’t give sufficient “return on investment” to make them worthwhile, the Govt probably thinks the same for the VA hospitals—that they’re just throwing money away. Sad but true.

I would imagine if healthcare was universal, the rich, or at least middle to upper class groups would not stand for bad conditions and do something to elevate the way their hospitals and clinics are run. Sadly, this would probably mean that poorer areas would still have bad clinics, and affluent areas would have beautiful facilities, just like it is for public schools.

Unions can be a good thing. My wife is a professor, and let me tell you, the people who run the school and the board of directors are always trying (and mostly succeeding) in screwing over the teachers. Yes, there are absolutely bad teachers out there who coast on their tenure, and there is no recourse for that. Part of the reason, at least at my wife’s school, is that if you tattle on someone from your own department i.e. give them bad marks for their annual reviews, it makes the whole department look bad. And when the department looks bad, the higher ups will cut your budget and take away classrooms, facilities, etc. Unfortunately the union has been ridiculously ineffective in fighting anything against the University president. The teachers have been working without a contract for years, which means no pay raises, even cost of living raises. Sorry for that tangent.

There are always going to be bad apples in every bunch, whether they work for the private sector or for a govt run program. My sister is an accountant and everywhere she’s worked (private companies), there has been at least one horrible person on staff that she couldn’t understand how they possibly still kept their job.

The doctors who tell you “tough luck” probably aren’t getting paid much and maybe look at that job as a stepping stone to a higher paying position—just a place to earn some experience. Maybe better funding would attract better (and more) doctors and workers which would result in better care. Not to mention better facilities and equipment. They can be choosy about who gets hired, instead of settling for anyone, bad or not, who was willing to do the job for a pittance.