Justice League Movie (Nov 17th, 2017)

[Wor-Gar]

Most 80's action or adventure movies didn't (have great villains), unless you count Rocky's villains in part 3 and 4

What? To name a few...

Aliens
Terminator
Predator
Hans Gruber
Mola Ram
Joker (Nicholson)
Darth Vader (ESB)
The Emperor
Jabba the Hutt
Wez
Humungus
Mr. StayPuft

 

[Wor-Gar]

And also, we don't get much great anything from comic movies.

Yes, this.

My god...when did I say that?

I literally posted that a death count might not make a villain great....but it still makes them VILLAINS in a movie!!!

You said Magneto and Loki weren't villains.

No, I said legitimate villains (just like you quoted me) -- because more than half the time they're good guys or working with the good guys. That undermines their villainy to me. So they are not true villains. Sorry. They are not. You can't have it both ways.

But your original point -- that death toll makes a villain, whether great or not -- is not a solid argument because heroes also kill many people. Luke killed a bazillion people on the Death Star. Are you saying he's a villain?

Your argument is void. Void I say.

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

What? To name a few...

Aliens
Terminator
Predator
Hans Gruber
Mola Ram
Joker (Nicholson)
Darth Vader (ESB)
The Emperor
Jabba the Hutt
Wez
Humungus
Mr. StayPuft

Well, Vader and the Alien creature made their debuts in the 70's, so they're not 80's products. Jabba and The Emperor are nice additions, but I don't consider them all time great villains. They have a good look and play a role in the weakest film of the OG trilogy, but other than that, I can't say they're great villains.

Predator and Terminator are great.

Joker is memorable, although I'm not sure if he's considered an all time great.

I'm not a big fan of Hans Gruber, but I know a lot of people like him, so I guess.

The rest are in the average category, imo. They're villains that only people our age know, but don't transcend our or people of a certain generation.

 

[Wor-Gar]

Well, Vader and the Alien creature made their debuts in the 70's, so they're not 80's products. Jabba and The Emperor are nice additions, but Ii don't consider them all time great villains. They have a good look...

Predator and Terminator are great.

Joker is memorable, although I'm not sure if he's considered an all time great.

I'm not a big fan of Hans Gruber, but I know a lot of people like him, so I guess.

The rest are in the average category, imo. They're villains that only people our age know, but don't transcend our or people of a certain generation.

You're tough to please. That list has some of the greatest 'villains' ever. (GB was a joke)

I added Vader, knowing he was from 1977, but he changed so much he's like a whole new villain in ESB. And people seem to much prefer him in ESB, so I think he counts (the OT is mostly 80's).

Also, I said Aliens -- not Alien -- because again I knew your only argument was to catch me on dates. Aliens -- like the Queen, again, many more people seem to love Aliens. Different villains.


I don't expect someone with a TMNT sig to understand or appreciate truly great villains, but you should accept them as fact and learn to love them as you would your green quartet.

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

No, I said legitimate villains (just like you quoted me) -- because more than half the time they're good guys or working with the good guys. That undermines their villainy to me. So they are not true villains. Sorry. They are not. You can't have it both ways.

But your original point -- that death toll makes a villain, whether great or not -- is not a solid argument because heroes also kill many people. Luke killed a bazillion people on the Death Star. Are you saying he's a villain?

Your argument is void. Void I say.

You like to be wrong. Why?

Magneto and Loki are only pretending to be good to get what they want...which is something that's very bad, like killing humans or taking over a world

I don't expect someone with a TMNT sig to understand or appreciate truly great villains, but you should accept them as fact and learn to love them as you would your green quartet.

> Likes Marshmallow man and the Commando guy wearing chaps.

 

[Wor-Gar]

You like to be wrong. Why?

Magneto and Loki are only pretending to be good to get what they want...which is something that's very bad, like killing humans or taking over a world

That's not true. But Magneto and Loki are lonely, sad little people with mommy issues. Particularly Loki who just wants Thor and daddy to say he's the best. He's a trickster more than a villain.

Magneto is closer to a villain, yes. I counted him as a villain for a long time, until they kept making more and more X-Men movies where he ended up having to work with the good guys and continually have this nice cozy relationship with Xavier. He just got too soft... and had to stop calling him a true villain.

BTW, I'm counting movies only, not the comics or comic history. I prefer Magneto as a villain, I wish he'd stay that way.

 

[Wor-Gar]

> Likes Marshmallow man and the Commando guy wearing chaps.

Come on, you have to admit that Wez is a much better villain than any Marvel knucklehead they've thrown at us yet. Humungus, yeah, maybe he's not so great. But the two together have gravitas.

Wez and Humungus rock!

What does Marvel give? Winter Soldier and ... Robert Redford?

 

[jye4ever]

MCU villains have nothing on those 2 desert rats and I shoot up MCU every day.

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

That's not true.

What's not true? Loki taking over earth and Asgar and killing humans like Coulson or Magneto wanting to kill all humans in 3 straight films? Because that's what happened.

But Magneto and Loki are lonely, sad little people with mommy issues. Particularly Loki who just wants Thor and daddy to say he's the best.

You just described Vader. By ROTJ he was as soft as Mr. StayPuft, he even looked like him too.

We live in a post prequel world, so Vader from RO is the same guy with the mommy issues.

Magneto is closer to a villain, yes. I counted him as a villain for a long time, until they kept making more and more X-Men movies where he ended up having to work with the good guys and continually have this nice cozy relationship with Xavier. He just got too soft... and had to stop calling him a true villain.

BTW, I'm counting movies only, not the comics or comic history. I prefer Magneto as a villain, I wish he'd stay that way.

Ok, well, we disagree on Magneto.

Do you like Hannibal Lecter? He's got a relationship with the hero of the film, even helps her...only to betray her to get what he wants.

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

Come on, you have to admit that Wez is a much better villain than any Marvel knucklehead they've thrown at us yet. Humungus, yeah, maybe he's not so great. But the two together have gravitas.

Wez and Humungus rock!

I like them very much. I prefer MM2 over Mad Max: Fury Road

As far as the MCU, yeah they have a villain problem. But I think the 2000's have good villains outside of superhero films, but if we're just talking superhero films, then there aren't many to choose from, unfortunately.

 

[Khev]

What? To name a few...

Aliens
Terminator
Predator
Hans Gruber
Mola Ram
Joker (Nicholson)
Darth Vader (ESB)
The Emperor
Jabba the Hutt
Wez
Humungus
Mr. StayPuft

I know your list wasn't comprehensive but I'd add Roy Batty, Clubber Lang, **** Jones, Clarence Boddicker, ED-209, Thulsa Doom and that big horned guy in Legend. The 80's were absolutely crammed with iconic villains from start to finish.

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

I'm surprised there is no mention of Freddy, Jason, Chucky, and the Gremlins. Yeah, they're cheesy, but memorable.

Beetlejuice is a great villain, imo.

 

[Khev]

Yes the gremlins were great. And the dragon from Dragonslayer. And Terrence Stamp Zod (for people who are into that sort of thing.)

 

[Wor-Gar]

Do you like Hannibal Lecter? He's got a relationship with the hero of the film, even helps her...only to betray her to get what he wants.

I like Lecter, yes. And he's not a villain. He's... complicated.

 

[Wor-Gar]

I know your list wasn't comprehensive but I'd add Roy Batty....

I totally forgot Roy!!!! Shame on me.

And Freddy and Jason, etc.... though those really aren't my kind of villains...

 

[karamazov80]

Magneto is a legit terrorist.
Full blown terrorist

Yeah, he is. Time and again he tries to make a big, public, dramatic display of things in order to instill fear in people. The Statue of Liberty thing, threatening Nixon, causing insane levels of destruction in Apocalypse, probably whatever happened in X3 that I blotted from my memory. If you do that, with the theatricality angle, while committing violence, with a political agenda, and if you aren't doing this as an official government sanctioned act, that's enough to consider it terrorism in my book.

Not just a terrorist. Magneto became the very thing he hated. He's a holocaust survivor and a victim of the Nazi regime, which makes him somewhat of a sympathetic figure, and although the films try very hard to justify his actions, given his Jewish background and by having him team up with the heroes, ultimately he always shows that even someone like him, a victim, can become a monster if pushed or oppressed long enough, to the point that he just hates an entire group of people.

There is a strong parallel to what happened with Israel, which I'm sure is intentional on Singer's part. After being treated as the red headed step child of the world for thousands of years, they finally had enough, and once Israel was established (and some of the earliest Zionist Jews did terrorize the British and Palestinians), they became extremely hawkish and extreme. Look how they hunted down the Nazi war criminals after World War 2. The pre-1967 borders are probably never coming back, and the expansions of settlements under Netanyahu is representative of this mindset.

Affleck via EW:
And the character is very different, too. “BvS departed a little bit from the traditional Batman,” says Affleck. “He started out with all this rage directed at Superman, because of his coworkers who had died in the fight Superman had with Zod.” For Affleck, most of the hero’s ensuing actions were defined by barely-repressed fury – in contrast to the Batman we meet in Justice League. “He was holding on to a lot of anger, in a little bit of an irrational way,” Affleck says. “Whereas this is a much more traditional Batman. He’s heroic. He does things in his own way, but he wants to save people, help people.”

That actually helps explain what's going on in BvS a lot. The fact that Batman was totally irrational. Because there was nothing rational at all about his homicidal approach toward Superman (and Luthor's goons). Or his Martha reaction, for that matter.

I agree. It had some great moments too--that plane scene was absolutely awesome on the big screen. I loved the easter eggs and throwbacks--for the most part. It just didn't have enough overall action for me. I would have loved to have seen them throw in a Brainiac and Lex Luthor team-up like they did in the animated series. I still don't know how Brainiac hasn't popped up yet on the big screen. The closest we've gotten is this:

I saw that as a little kid, and that scene legitimately freaked me out. Almost as bad as some scenes from Monty Python's Meaning of Life. Don't show that to kids, people.

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

And Freddy and Jason, etc.... though those really aren't my kind of villains...

They must be weak, complicated, and heroic then

 

[jye4ever]

I know your list wasn't comprehensive but I'd add Roy Batty, Clubber Lang, **** Jones, Clarence Boddicker, ED-209, Thulsa Doom and that big horned guy in Legend. The 80's were absolutely crammed with iconic villains from start to finish.

From Exorcist to Batman 89 it crushes everything in its path.

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

From Exorcist to Batman 89 it crushes everything in its path.

The Exorcist came out in 1973

 

[karamazov80]

Maybe he meant Exorcist 2: Electric Boogaloo. . .but even that was from the '70s