Questions for Asmus

[FlyAndFight]

I've got a bad feeling about this...

I hope I'm wrong, though.

 

[Chopper Face]

Any time something The Rings of Power related is shown

 

[Bucky Underbelly]

I don't know ... I'm actually feeling better and better about it the more I see ...

It's definitely feeling more like the trilogy to me at this point. Though, to be fair, I'm not a huge canon person, so I don't care much about how strictly they're hewing to the Silmarillion. As long as they tell compelling stories and it looks and feels like Middle-Earth ... I'm in. As long as they are worth the telling, I want more stories from that world.

Cautious optimism rising ...

 

[FlyAndFight]

I don't know ... I'm actually feeling better and better about it the more I see ...

It's definitely feeling more like the trilogy to me at this point. Though, to be fair, I'm not a huge canon person, so I don't care much about how strictly they're hewing to the Silmarillion. As long as they tell compelling stories and it looks and feels like Middle-Earth ... I'm in. As long as they are worth the telling, I want more stories from that world.

Cautious optimism rising ...

I believe that they don't have the rights to "The Silmarillion"...

They just have the television rights to “The Fellowship of the Ring", "The Two Towers", "The Return of the King", the appendices, and "The Hobbit". This is quite limiting, as the appendices are a limited source of information on the First and Second Ages, hence I can see in part why they are adding non-canon characters, situations and that the time-line is all over the place.

 

[DioramaMaker]

I believe that they don't have the rights to "The Silmarillion"...

They just have the television rights to “The Fellowship of the Ring", "The Two Towers", "The Return of the King", the appendices, and "The Hobbit". This is quite limiting, as the appendices are a limited source of information on the First and Second Ages, hence I can see in part why they are adding non-canon characters, situations and that the time-line is all over the place.

So that means, inevitably, we're gonna see Amazon's take on the Trilogy, aren't we? If they have the rights, I can't imagine that it's not on their radar to do it.

 

[Bucky Underbelly]

True. But while they may not have explicit rights to the SIlmarillion, they're definitely getting permission to use tons of stuff from it. I've heard they can ask and the Estate can grant permission. (That said, I'm not going to spend too much time parsing the rumored terms of a contract they're never going to let me read! )

But, yeah, even if they did have complete access to everything, they'd still need to invent characters, plotlines and dialogue to fill in the gaps. Tolkien gives the broad strokes, but it's such a huge, mostly unstructured mass of material spread over such a long timespan ... if you're going to hammer that into a form the audience will accept, you're going to have to do a lot of adaptation. Which I am fine with. As long as it's good!

 

[BagginsOfBagEnd]

I'm still not sure either, although have to say that was a very good trailer - visually it looks fantastic and the Orcs and Gil-Galad very on-point. Just hoping it's not going to be a case of style over substance and that the storylines are good. Not long until we get to find out!

 

[ObiGlennKenobi]

wouldn't be surprised if another trailer OR at least first episode or sizzle reel is shown.at SDCC next week.

 

[Sassafras]

True. But while they may not have explicit rights to the SIlmarillion, they're definitely getting permission to use tons of stuff from it. I've heard they can ask and the Estate can grant permission. (That said, I'm not going to spend too much time parsing the rumored terms of a contract they're never going to let me read! )

But, yeah, even if they did have complete access to everything, they'd still need to invent characters, plotlines and dialogue to fill in the gaps. Tolkien gives the broad strokes, but it's such a huge, mostly unstructured mass of material spread over such a long timespan ... if you're going to hammer that into a form the audience will accept, you're going to have to do a lot of adaptation. Which I am fine with. As long as it's good!

The other thing too, tho, is for all the uproar online, there's the huge indifferent majority who isn't a fan of Tolkien, LOTR, the Hobbit, etc.

The same aspect that PJ must have dealt with - and now Amazon is competing with lots of streaming services. They need to tell a story that normies will invest in, as well.

Anyway both with LOTR and the Hobbit, Peter Jackson did things I like, and things I don't like. Some things I shamelessly ignore, simply because the actor or look was so good, I think it works, for me. So far, I am liking the Harfoots, simply because they remind me of the many folklore and mythology books I have read over the years.
Like the Time-Life Enchanted World series, for one, tho I've read a fair amount (and Amazon has some excellent, tho dated, free books on mythology, ancient weapons, etc.).

Watching the trailer, to me it looks like someone was doing some research (the Green Man motif on the black elf's armor, for one thing; tho some say that's an Ent....) Even with what little Amazon has to work with, this is a lot of dense material to bring to screen.

So I'll over look the obvious modern messaging and hope ANOTHER illicit and needless romance isn't too cringe, or the warrior Galadriel, and so on. I don't need it to be the ultimate Middle Earth - which for me hasn't been done yet, and probably never will be. I just hope for something good that doesn't end up like GOT. Pretty sure at this point all showrunners should write their endings FIRST.

So that means, inevitably, we're gonna see Amazon's take on the Trilogy, aren't we? If they have the rights, I can't imagine that it's not on their radar to do it.

There's a lot about LOTR that annoys me, including no Glorfindel and the handling of Faramir, and I'd like to see Tom Bombadil and Goldberry, so maybe that wouldn't be the worst thing.

 

[ObiGlennKenobi]

Id like to see Melkor and Balrogs

 

[Chopper Face]

There's a lot about LOTR that annoys me, including no Glorfindel and the handling of Faramir, and I'd like to see Tom Bombadil and Goldberry, so maybe that wouldn't be the worst thing.

Woah, woah, woah- this sounds like you think Amazon could provide you with a more faithful adaption of the LOTR books than Peter Jackson and Co…

I can assure you, they are quite simply incapable of that.

Given the plethora of liberties Amazon has taken with their show- invented characters and (leaked) plot points, uncharacteristic traits and actions of book characters, discarding described physical attributes of the peoples of middle Earth, the mishmashing of Middle Earth history to fit everything into the same age- combined with their insistence that Tolkien’s work NEEDS to be changed for modern audiences and the lie they’ve propagated that the author himself encouraged and would approve of this; how could an Amazon remake of LOTR not be the worst thing?

PJ made changes to maintain focus on the key narratives of a cinematic story and always respected Tolkien’s intentions and messages.
Amazon is making changes because they believe their message is more important and the source material isn’t suitable for today. They think they know better. Tolkien is a dinosaur from a bygone era and his story is unsuitable and unpalatable for people of today.

 

[RandomHero]

I'll take flak for this but it's fine...I'm fine that they skipped out on Bombadil in the films. Would have entirely killed the pace of the movie. I always skip that part when I re-read Fellowship.

 

[Tolkien Nerd]

I'll take flak for this but it's fine...I'm fine that they skipped out on Bombadil in the films. Would have entirely killed the pace of the movie. I always skip that part when I re-read Fellowship.

INCOMING!!!

 

[DakRen]

I believe that they don't have the rights to "The Silmarillion"...

They just have the television rights to “The Fellowship of the Ring", "The Two Towers", "The Return of the King", the appendices, and "The Hobbit". This is quite limiting, as the appendices are a limited source of information on the First and Second Ages, hence I can see in part why they are adding non-canon characters, situations and that the time-line is all over the place.

They have requested and can be given approval from the Tolkien Estate if it’s needed. That’s why we are seeing so much First Age and Silmarillion material like the Oath of Fëanor. It makes sense since these are pivotal moments in the narrative. How can you set the stage for the current era of the Second Age without the War of Wrath for instance.

 

[DakRen]

Woah, woah, woah- this sounds like you think Amazon could provide you with a more faithful adaption of the LOTR books than Peter Jackson and Co…

I can assure you, they are quite simply incapable of that.

Given the plethora of liberties Amazon has taken with their show- invented characters and (leaked) plot points, uncharacteristic traits and actions of book characters, discarding described physical attributes of the peoples of middle Earth, the mishmashing of Middle Earth history to fit everything into the same age- combined with their insistence that Tolkien’s work NEEDS to be changed for modern audiences and the lie they’ve propagated that the author himself encouraged and would approve of this; how could an Amazon remake of LOTR not be the worst thing?

PJ made changes to maintain focus on the key narratives of a cinematic story and always respected Tolkien’s intentions and messages.
Amazon is making changes because they believe their message is more important and the source material isn’t suitable for today. They think they know better. Tolkien is a dinosaur from a bygone era and his story is unsuitable and unpalatable for people of today.

This is a bad mischaracterization. The showrunners have said many other things in interviews and articles praising Tolkien and treating the world with deep respect. They never said they think they know better than Tolkien. Your perspective and post is very inaccurate in all fairness. I don’t want to speculate but this type of points raised seem only popularized from various YouTubers like Nerdrotic and Critical drinker. They aren’t deeply ingrained in the lore and it shows.

The plethora of changes are necessary because unlike LOTR, the Second Age only has small contained stories like Of the Rings of Power and the Akallabeth found in the Silmarillion (which even has mistakes as Christopher Tolkien later mentioned regarding Gil-galad’s parentage) . Other than that there are tons of incomplete narratives like History of Galadriel and Celeborn in Unfinished Tales (has various versions). You also have the big issue of various versions of character stories and events. Tolkien never had a definitive version of Galadriel’s backstory and couldn’t even decide on her role in the first Kinslaying at Alqualonde or how she arrived in Middle-earth. It’s a momentous task just to have lore fans arrive at some form of consensus but even then it’s highly contested.

And to your point that PJ’s trilogy was always in the spirit of Tolkien, that’s highly subjective. One we do not have a finished product to compare to and secondly PJ’s films have huge lore changes, many character and chapter omissions and some completely invented subplots. Elrond is completely different as a character for instance and Arwen’s scenes are all invented. I would say it’s good to not be too hasty like Treebeard said and judge a product when it is finished. It’s very easy to harbor preconceptions due to cultural war distractions and fixate on minor elements.

There is plenty to be concerned about regarding the time compression (which there was in FOTR on a smaller scale). New characters are always going to be difficult because there is great potential for them to be poorly executed. There is also a lot to be excited for the practical effects, the deep lore, the PJ film aesthetics and the returning experts and artists like John Howe, Howard Shore, the accent coach, orc designer from LOTR, etc.

 

[DakRen]

Id like to see Melkor and Balrogs

In the prologue you may, I am very excited for it.

 

[FlyAndFight]

I honestly haven't seen enough to win me over. I'm seeing more of an opportunistic exploitation of Tolkien's work and not a respectful commitment to honor his work as well as his world view. I do understand that the writers will possibly have to deviate some due to screenplay adaptation and/or possible limitations of the source material. It is where Tolkien says nothing and Amazon may feel that they need to say something, that has me concerned.

I plan on watching at least the first episode. Hopefully it is entertaining enough to win me over. If not, no big deal. I owe no allegiance to Amazon or the show.

 

[Sixth Scale Man]

Just wondering if a thread could be made for the ROP show? With respect, these discussions are valid and interesting but I feel it’s becoming it’s own thing in a thread meant for something else.

 

[ObiGlennKenobi]

Just wondering if a thread could be made for the ROP show? With respect, these discussions are valid and interesting but I feel it’s becoming it’s own thing in a thread meant for something else.

yes.
I apologise as I started it in here.
sorry

 

[Sixth Scale Man]

yes.
I apologise as I started it in here.
sorry

All good! I'm genuinely enjoying the discussions about the upcoming show and the lore. I just want to keep gently prodding Asmus about upcoming releases.