say it ain't so roger

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roger clemens too? he's heading down a nasty road like bonds if he thinks he's going to lie to congress. he insists he didn't use steroids but McNamee, his trainer has already testified that he did. i always pondered just how rocket fired a baseball in the mid-90s at his age. seems my question is being answered.

https://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080104/ap_on_sp_ba_ne/bbo_congress_clemens
ummm... why do you care i thought you said baseball sucks in the last steroids thread?:huh:huh:huh
 
roger clemens too? he's heading down a nasty road like bonds if he thinks he's going to lie to congress. he insists he didn't use steroids but McNamee, his trainer has already testified that he did. i always pondered just how rocket fired a baseball in the mid-90s at his age. seems my question is being answered.

https://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080104/ap_on_sp_ba_ne/bbo_congress_clemens


Yeah, the same McNamee who is in the process of looking for a book deal. That's why he's threatening to sue Clemens if he calls him a liar on 60 minutes - it will hurt his chances of staying in the spot light. The same McNamee who "supposedly" ratted on his friends to save himself jail time. Don't get me wrong, I accept it is possible Clemens took these substances. I just find it unlikely. Clemens has no reason to lie. The drugs were not banned when he is being accused of using them. The drug ban in MLB for them didn't begin til 2003 and all the claims are before then. But, that's not the point. We, as baseball fans are so angry at big names like Bonds and Clemens due to these allegations that we forget one thing - nearly everyone juiced up back in the late 80's and 90's. That doesn't mean it was right, but I get so feed up with people claiming steroids gave the player an unfair advantage. Sure, if he was the only one on either team using them, then they might. But if half the players on the field are juiced, then where's the advantage?

We have players in the Baseball Hall of Fame that were racists, Communist, admitted cheaters (come on, Steroids and other drugs, while more invasive, are no different than the players in the 50's, 60's, and 70's resorting to pine tar, vasoline, "spit" balls, and corked bats), etc. Yet, someone as talented as Bonds isn't going to get in? These drugs may make you stronger and heal quicker ... but I refuse to believe either of those gives you the ability to hit a small ball hurled at you at speeds over 90 MPH 33% of the time. Hell, if pure strength, speed, and athleticism are all you need, then why did Micheal Jordan suck so badly at the game? Feel free to call the 90's the "Steroid Era". It probably deserves that. But don't start throwing records out when everyone was doing it. And, don't start assuming a person is guilty until proven innocent.
 
The Federal Testimony given by his former trainer under oath is pretty much proof of guilt.

Clemens is a lying POS.

You can have your opinions, but Clemens said he'd take a lie detector test. If he does and passes? Also, I'm sure no one has ever lied when giving Federal Testimony :rolleyes:

One thing I actually wonder is if the trainer injected Clemens with this stuff w/o Clemens knowledge so they are both telling the "truth". Perhaps Clemens was under the impression is was B12 and whatever that other stuff he named was, but it was really roids?

Clemens is being pretty outspoken about this. If he were guilty I'd think he'd be hiding out.

It's easy to sit back and call someone a "lying POS" w/o any real proof other than some dick hole's "word" trying to keep his own ass out of jail.
 
Seriously, though, didn't anyone else assume Clemens was using 'roids, HGH or some other performance-enhancing drug for the past few years even BEFORE this all hit? He's the pitching equivalent of a Mark McGwire or Barry Bonds. I don't care how much he protests, imho he's guilty and now instead of fessing up he's doing all he can to try and salvage his legacy (and perhaps his entrance into the Hall of Fame). Not that I don't understant why he'd want to keep it under wraps to the bitter end, and then denying it when he's been outed. But he might be making things even worse for himself if he's guilty, which I am obviously thoroughly convinced he is.
 
Seriously, though, didn't anyone else assume Clemens was using 'roids, HGH or some other performance-enhancing drug for the past few years even BEFORE this all hit? He's the pitching equivalent of a Mark McGwire or Barry Bonds. I don't care how much he protests, imho he's guilty and now instead of fessing up he's doing all he can to try and salvage his legacy (and perhaps his entrance into the Hall of Fame). Not that I don't understant why he'd want to keep it under wraps to the bitter end, and then denying it when he's been outed. But he might be making things even worse for himself if he's guilty, which I am obviously thoroughly convinced he is.

I am glad I am not on trial with you in the jury.

He may or may not be guilty, but I want more than the word of his former trainer who's trying to keep his own ass out of jail while nailing down a book deal. Again, PROOF is what matters in our legal system.

If he failed a lie detector test or if some actual PROOF is shown they yes, he's made a giant ass of himself by being so vocal and saying he never did it.

Look at Clemens and then Mac and Bonds and tell me how they are similar. Bonds and Mac became the Hulk. Clemens put on weight, but it sure as hell wasn't all muscle.
 
I am glad I am not on trial with you in the jury.

You should be. :p :lol

He may or may not be guilty, but I want more than the word of his former trainer who's trying to keep his own ass out of jail while nailing down a book deal. Again, PROOF is what matters in our legal system.

Of course. But this thread isn't exactly a courtroom. Clemens may get his day in court. And if he's indeed innocent then he should be running to the courts right now. Also, keep in mind that just about every other person named by the trainer has corroborated the story, including Andy Pettitte who DID admit to using HGH.

Have you read the Mitchell Report? It's pretty damning on Clemens. And the reason why he has to claim he was injected by B-12 vitamins and some other junk is because there is PROOF that he was injected by his trainer(s) with hypodermic needles. He can't deny that part, so all he can do is dispute what was in the needles. Now, you can give him the benefit of the doubt there and that's fine. But it's a pretty slipperly slope if you ask me, especially when the government investigation is thoroughly convinced of his guilt.


Look at Clemens and then Mac and Bonds and tell me how they are similar. Bonds and Mac became the Hulk. Clemens put on weight, but it sure as hell wasn't all muscle.

Come on, man. Think with your head instead of your heart on this. It's not just about muscle. People (even athletes) just do not improve like these guys did past the age of 35-40 without some kind of "help". That's what they obviously have in common. Suggestions of Clemens being on the juice have been going around for years. It's nothing new at all. Now we just have the smoking gun (at worst) and his hand in the cookie jar (at best).

Also, can't you recall a Clemens "roid rage" incident or two from the past few years? :monkey3
 
I am just saying I will wait for the final outcome before I cast judgement on him. I have not said "He IS innocent", but he says he is and he seems willing to go to whatever length he can to prove it including saying he's willing to take a lie detector.

The real problem is that if he is innocent how can he ever really prove it? People can come out and say whatever the hell they want and it's up to you to somehow prove you're innocent.

Has Clemens ever had a failed drug test? Did they even test for it when he was accused of using it? He also won Cy Young awards before he ever used as well as AFTER he was said to have no longer used it. He got better as he got older only due to the use of roids in your statement, but if that was the case how did he win another Cy Young a few years after he was no longer using?

I just don't like the whole "Oh, he guilty cause someone accused him" method here. The Mitchell report can name Clemens as often as it wants to. It did so because he was the "big name" they wanted. Naming him as often as they did does not change the fact that the evidence of "guilt" is still nothing more than hearsay at this point.
 
We'll agree to disagree.

However, I DO hope that this all comes out in the wash at some point... and definitively so, one way or the other. I think we can both agree on that. :duff
 
You should be. :p :lol



Of course. But this thread isn't exactly a courtroom. Clemens may get his day in court. And if he's indeed innocent then he should be running to the courts right now. Also, keep in mind that just about every other person named by the trainer has corroborated the story, including Andy Pettitte who DID admit to using HGH.

Have you read the Mitchell Report? It's pretty damning on Clemens. And the reason why he has to claim he was injected by B-12 vitamins and some other junk is because there is PROOF that he was injected by his trainer(s) with hypodermic needles. He can't deny that part, so all he can do is dispute what was in the needles. Now, you can give him the benefit of the doubt there and that's fine. But it's a pretty slipperly slope if you ask me, especially when the government investigation is thoroughly convinced of his guilt.




Come on, man. Think with your head instead of your heart on this. It's not just about muscle. People (even athletes) just do not improve like these guys did past the age of 35-40 without some kind of "help". That's what they obviously have in common. Suggestions of Clemens being on the juice have been going around for years. It's nothing new at all. Now we just have the smoking gun (at worst) and his hand in the cookie jar (at best).

Also, can't you recall a Clemens "roid rage" incident or two from the past few years? :monkey3


I am going to be flat out honest with you. I am a Mets/ Red Sox's fan, so by proxy I HATE Clemens. But that doesn't make me blind to A.) burden of proof and B.) innocent until proven guilty.

McNamee was trying to avoid a jail term. A pretty long one from what I hear. Do you really think shooting Pettite with HGH 2 times was enough dirt to keep him off his knees in federal prison? No, the government needed someone big to justify all the money and time they have wasted on the Mitchell Report. Clemens lawyers, in the suit filed yesterday, claim A.) McNamee didn't name Clemens in the beginning, but was told he would be prosecuted if he didn't. B.) Changed his story and went from being a defendant to a witness. C.) They have witnesses to prove that all of this is true. The other people who have commented on the Committees procedures agree it was a draconian "McCarthy Red era" style farce - where else in American law can you call a person to testify without A.) full disclosure, B.) proper representation, and C.)basically all your civil rights thrown out the door? Let's be honest, would it really surprise you if the federal government coerced McNamee into naming Clemens? If I was told, "Be at location X on Wednesday to talk about 1998,2000, and 2001" with no other info or instruction, I wouldn't have gone either ... even if I had nothing to fear.

Point being, McNamee has been proven to be an opportunist who would sell out his supposed best friend Clemens to avoid jail time. Why is his word more convincing than Clemens? What has Clemens ever done to deserve this mistrust? I could see Bonds ... he's always been something of a prick. But Clemens, even in hated Yankee stripes, was always a standup guy. So, until someone can provide me some proof other than McNamee's "Yeah, I injected him", I am going to give him the benefit of the doubt. It's not a love/hate thing. It's the way our law system is SUPPOSE to work. Unless they can provide additional testimony to back up McNamee, it's one man's word against anothers. And, I tend to be more distrusting of stoolies trying to avoid jail.

But, the bigger question is WHAT THE HELL DOES IT MATTER? Let's say McNamee is telling the truth. Clemens used HGH and steroids in 1998, 2000, and 2002. So what. The substances were not banned until 2003. Even Mitchell admits their use was widespread during this time period. Why are we wasting all this time and money to "out" someone for doing something that technically wasn't cheating (I say technically because it wasn't against the rules at that time)? It's all the federal governments attempt at smoke and mirrors to take our minds off Iraq, Afghanistan, recession, etc. ... you name it.

P.S. As to your comments regarding his performance in his late 30's early 40's, can you provide scientific proof that this type of performance is impossible without drugs? And, that's impossible, not improbable. No you can't. So, stop assuming someone was guilty just because they were good late in their career. It's could have been drugs, but it also could have been talent.
 
P.S. As to your comments regarding his performance in his late 30's early 40's, can you provide scientific proof that this type of performance is impossible without drugs? And, that's impossible, not improbable. No you can't. .

Nolan Ryan also thanks you. No one is saying he jucied and he pitched well into his mid 40's.


Also, Clemens says he will testify on the 16th as "invited". For someone who who could have just said "Yeah, i did it" and then been done with it like many of the guilty guys did, Clemens sure seems to be willing to really put his ass on the line over this. The court of public opinion needs to take a step back and ask why he'd be willing to take a lie detector and testify on the 16th if he knew he was guilty? Anyone can be accused of anything, but that doesn't mean he did it.

Hell, these days men get accused of sexual harassment for telling a woman she looks nice. It doesn't make it true all the time. Innocent until proven guilty.
 
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Have any of you ever heard of the Salem Witch Trials? How about the McCarthy hearings?

I can't stand Clemens, but I respect the hell out him. And will continue to do so until it's proven that he took any of these substances.
 
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