Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2)

[Python]

That is pretty much in character for Luke though. Looking back at the OT, Luke always had the tendency to whine and give up.

This WAS in his character early on. The whole point of the OT is that we saw Luke grow and develop into a Jedi knight, losing that trait. Rian Johnson threw that out of the window and reverted potentially the most powerful Jedi ever seen (how cool would it have been to see that) back into his teenage farm boy self.

 

[cerealkeller]

That is pretty much in character for Luke though. Looking back at the OT, Luke always had the tendency to whine and give up. Even him turning on Kylo fits his character really well. In RTJ he almost killed his father in a fit of rage. His saving grace was that he always eventually turned around to do the right thing. In RTJ, he stopped himself from killing Vader, in TLJ he didn't kill Kylo, and he eventually decided to help Leia.

As for Ben actually going somewhere, I'm guessing Luke didn't physically go there because maybe his X-Wing was beyond repair and he couldn't fly out once Rey had left and/or maybe he knew that physically he couldn't stand a chance to delay Kylo enough to help his friends, but as a Force Ghost he can buy enough time.

Either way, I found how TLJ handled this to be very creative while still making sense for that universe.




It wasn't. Luke comes to this realization himself at the end of the movie. It also parallels his father's story nicely. In the same way Annakin was lost into Vader, Luke got lost in his regret. They both thought they were doing the right thing. Annakin gets turned around by Luke and he eventually does the right thing (stop the emperor), Rey eventually turns around Luke and Luke does the right thing (help his friends/sister).

Agree with everything you just said. Luke's journey not only makes sense to me, it was unexpected and I love that. After The Last Jedi I love Luke Skywalker even more than I did. He always believes he is doing the right thing even though like Yoda tells him he thinks of the big picture too much which for Luke was taking Jedi out of the equation and not running to rescue his friends which you know killed him inside. I read Hamills performance as someone who has been dying inside trying not to go help but instead doing the hardest thing he has ever done: nothing. He hopes the light will rise from a better foundation than the Jedi Order. His mistake was being stubborn when Rey showed up needing his help. He should have taught her about his failures, but also helped this young girl deal with her own conflicts and help guide her.

But in the end he did the only thing he could do when Yoda smacked some sense into him: sacrifice himself knowing what pouring his existence into the Force and appearing across the galaxy would kill him but that would also save what is left of the Resistance, but rekindle a sense of hope and create a legend the light side can use as inspiration of sacrifice and standing up to do the right thing.

Besides Canto Bight, Last Jedi has stuck with me more than any Star Wars film since ROTJ. Finn and Rose could have been handled better, Holdo and DJ removed completely, and Phasma fighting Finn was eye rolling for me. Those are my biggest gripes with the film. But what it does right far outweighs those parts for me. Chapter skip is a beautiful thing.


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[Franken Berry]

According to the same reviewers who advocated for The Last Jedi, Solo's box office failure is because of "franchise fatigue". I'm reading excuses that range from blaming the release date being too close to Avengers and Deadpool, to blaming Memorial Weekend itself, to blaming too many Star Wars movies in general with their annual release dates.

Reviewers are embarrassed that they got TLJ wrong. So many people hated TLJ that it's destroying the franchise box office. I sincerely doubt there's anything Lucas Film can do to save Episode 9. I wouldn't go so far as to say that TLJ destroyed the mythology. However, they certainly destroyed enthusiasm for nostalgia used to promote every Disney Star Wars film. Would you guys agree? I know some of you sincerely liked TLJ, but for those who don't, I think nostalgia is no longer a convincing sales pitch. The only reason for a Solo movie is nostalgia, and a lot of people don't care. TLJ is most likely to blame for that.

If you read the comments section of Variety and other articles, or Youtube comments, you get the same criticisms over and over again. The word "disrespect" comes up a lot, whether it be disrespect for the source material (The OT) or disrespect toward fans of the OT. Prior to Solo's box office failure, you could argue that angry fans were a minority of disgruntled Alt Right trolls, but now? It's not a convincing argument.

 

[xipotec]

Agree with everything you just said. Luke's journey not only makes sense to me, it was unexpected and I love that. After The Last Jedi I love Luke Skywalker even more than I did. He always believes he is doing the right thing even though like Yoda tells him he thinks of the big picture too much which for Luke was taking Jedi out of the equation and not running to rescue his friends which you know killed him inside. I read Hamills performance as someone who has been dying inside trying not to go help but instead doing the hardest thing he has ever done: nothing. He hopes the light will rise from a better foundation than the Jedi Order. His mistake was being stubborn when Rey showed up needing his help. He should have taught her about his failures, but also helped this young girl deal with her own conflicts and help guide her.

But in the end he did the only thing he could do when Yoda smacked some sense into him: sacrifice himself knowing what pouring his existence into the Force and appearing across the galaxy would kill him but that would also save what is left of the Resistance, but rekindle a sense of hope and create a legend the light side can use as inspiration of sacrifice and standing up to do the right thing.

Besides Canto Bight, Last Jedi has stuck with me more than any Star Wars film since ROTJ. Finn and Rose could have been handled better, Holdo and DJ removed completely, and Phasma fighting Finn was eye rolling for me. Those are my biggest gripes with the film. But what it does right far outweighs those parts for me. Chapter skip is a beautiful thing.


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I agree totally. The Luke arc was the best part of the film, the rest felt like to filler for the kids, which is to be expected from a SW film. At least Canto Blight, as hokey as it was, was not Gungans and “Meesa dis” and “Boss Nass dat....”

I think alot of folks had trouble accepting the Luke narrative because they believe that at (what 26?) Luke had achieved perfection at a Jedi Knight, simply because he was willing to commit suicide to save his father. That ultimate self sacrifice somehow translated in them to Luke being an all powerful Jedi. Yet we know from PT that the Jedi, for all their talk of peace and not giving in to the Dark Side, seemed to fight ALOT. Only Yoda, in the end , after losing a fight “in exile does he go” removing himself from the equation till he could be in a position to be useful. Luke felt his position of usefulness was also to remove himself from the conflict, as he believed he was causing the imbalance.

I also think perhaps Luke believed he was turning to the Dark Side as he did in the EU. That his judgement was not sound. I think he didnt want to go through the pain of what happened with Vader with Kylo, and he couldnt think of any way to stop what was coming from his vision. In a moment of weakness he fell to the Dark Side and thought of killing Kylo as the solution....

People wanted a simple hero Luke, a Luke who at 26 ? Had become the man he would be forever. Thats not how life works. Most people at age 55 will tell you they are nothing like their 25 year old selves.....life and trauma and experience changes you.

Folks didnt want that....they wanted their childhood hero infallible.





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[xipotec]

According to the same reviewers who advocated for The Last Jedi, Solo's box office failure is because of "franchise fatigue". I'm reading excuses that range from blaming the release date being too close to Avengers and Deadpool, to blaming Memorial Weekend itself, to blaming too many Star Wars movies in general with their annual release dates.

Reviewers are embarrassed that they got TLJ wrong. So many people hated TLJ that it's destroying the franchise box office. I sincerely doubt there's anything Lucas Film can do to save Episode 9. I wouldn't go so far as to say that TLJ destroyed the mythology. However, they certainly destroyed enthusiasm for nostalgia used to promote every Disney Star Wars film. Would you guys agree? I know some of you sincerely liked TLJ, but for those who don't, I think nostalgia is no longer a convincing sales pitch. The only reason for a Solo movie is nostalgia, and a lot of people don't care. TLJ is most likely to blame for that.

If you read the comments section of Variety and other articles, or Youtube comments, you get the same criticisms over and over again. The word "disrespect" comes up a lot, whether it be disrespect for the source material (The OT) or disrespect toward fans of the OT. Prior to Solo's box office failure, you could argue that angry fans were a minority of disgruntled Alt Right trolls, but now? It's not a convincing argument.

Dunno, alot of the Solo reviews to me sound like bitter fans....so perhaps there is a shred of truth to that. The reviewers are just trying to get their “clicks” in to feed their bank accounts. What do they know? They thought TLJ would be a success and wanted to be the first reviewer to say it was a masterpiece. Then the reverse happened.....they wanted to be the first to say Solo was bad.

And most commenters are basically the same. Bandwagon people.

Just about everyone I know with an opinion not backed by some you-tuber liked Solo, (its still 50/50 with TLJ for those folks.)

The general public is definitely getting tired of SW and TLJ had alot to do with that. Those folks were happy with a SW film every 5-10 years!

Its a shame it happening, because if you look at this board, whom I feel has a pretty standalone group of people, for the most part people liked it.







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[xipotec]

Another interesting thjng is the sheer amount of “reviews” on RT that just say “I am boycotting this film (Solo) because of Disney and their SJW politics....

They have given it 1/2 a star and admitted in the comments that they have not even seen the film.....




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[Bravomite]

Another interesting thjng is the sheer amount of “reviews” on RT that just say “I am boycotting this film (Solo) because of Disney and their SJW politics....

They have given it 1/2 a star and admitted in the comments that they have not even seen the film.....

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I was one of the foolish who 'took it out' on Solo lol (not leaving a bad review but by not rushing to see it like I have with all other Star Wars movies). I just had no excitement left for Star Wars after TLJ and that combined with the juvenile responses from Rian (which were left unchecked by LFL) and the media in general to those fans who didn't like it really turned me off to the franchise. To my detriment as it turns out because I only just caught Solo this week (my wife wanted to go because she is a fan of Emilia Clarke ... she doesn't really like SW and I read some of the positive reviews on here which piqued by interest). How wrong was I because Solo is it's on beast and dang is it a brilliant Star Wars movie.

The backlash is more real and more substantial than the media represented it. TLJ split the fan base and unfortunately Solo is taking the brunt of it as it is a chance to flip the bird to Kennedy and Disney. There are no winners of course, the fans that hate TLJ will probably like Solo, Disney's bean counters will think that there is franchise fatigue and people don't like the 'Star Wars story movies' as much as the ST (where I would guess that for the majority of fans the opposite is true) and the poor people who worked on Solo most likely and rather undeservedly feel a bit rubbish that their movie is a 'flop'.

From a lot of the analysis I have read on Rotten Tomatoes audience ratings it seems very likely that they don't actually count scores below a 1 so I wouldn't worry about the 1/2 ratings (it worked the same for TLJ). I believe it's their way of trying to remove 'troll' ratings from the equation.

 

[Franken Berry]

Another interesting thjng is the sheer amount of “reviews” on RT that just say “I am boycotting this film (Solo) because of Disney and their SJW politics....

They have given it 1/2 a star and admitted in the comments that they have not even seen the film.....

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I was surprised that Disney resorted to identity politics in promoting Solo. Disney seems to be detached from their own demographic. When I first heard about the SJW droid, I knew there'd be trouble. When Kasdan mentioned that Lando is pansexual, I knew that would be the death of Solo's box office. Kasdan confirmed what many, myself included, feared regarding Disney Star Wars: the politics of TLJ wasn't just Rian Johnson's doing, but a Disney mandate.

Politics aside, from a marketing perspective it was a dumb move.

 

[crows]

Dunno, alot of the Solo reviews to me sound like bitter fans....so perhaps there is a shred of truth to that. The reviewers are just trying to get their “clicks” in to feed their bank accounts. What do they know? They thought TLJ would be a success and wanted to be the first reviewer to say it was a masterpiece. Then the reverse happened.....they wanted to be the first to say Solo was bad.

And most commenters are basically the same. Bandwagon people.

Just about everyone I know with an opinion not backed by some you-tuber liked Solo, (its still 50/50 with TLJ for those folks.)

The general public is definitely getting tired of SW and TLJ had alot to do with that. Those folks were happy with a SW film every 5-10 years!

Its a shame it happening, because if you look at this board, whom I feel has a pretty standalone group of people, for the most part people liked it.







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solo had to pay the price for the last jedi's insolence
they kept belittling and disparaging the fan base, they kept saying they were not needed, that these movies were not for them... well there you go.
a good movie gets a beating for their arrogance

 

[Sachiel]

Folks didnt want that....they wanted their childhood hero infallible.

We wanted the Luke Skywalker who isn't a coward that runs away and abandons his friends.

"muh 30 years" is just an excuse for lack of creativity and lazy writing.

 

[crows]

Whats funny is that Batman kinda did the same in Rises and he quit and he was hiding.

But when Bane came out and started attacking the city Batman didnt coward on us and he actually went to face bane. he was going to die to save his city.

Luke just wanted to die, Luke didnt care that a new empire rose, luke didnt care that his nephew was slaving people and killing people. Luke didnt care that Han got killed. his own friend

rian just made luke a miserable old grumpy fart.

Heroes having to hide and losing hope is nothing new. Luke hiding in the island was not the problem.
the problem is what he did after Rey found him. the ending doesnt make up for him not training her properly or for him not facing Kylo in real life instead of being a hologram

IF Luke wanted to die why not face kylo face to face. Luke was a coward to the very end. a coward to his death.

 

[Sachiel]

TDKR Bruce > TLJ Luke

 

[crows]

Even Obi wan did go to face Vader before his death and he didnt freaking Project himself via Skype using the force, he actually went to fight him one last time.

Luke was made SUCH A coward he couldn't even face Kylo for real..... thats how scared he was and how weak he was. Luke literally becomes the most coward and weak character in all of star wars

 

[e30ernest]

I am unashamed to say I liked TLJ (more than TFA at least) but I did not watch Solo. I'm one of those who chose to use my time to watch IW then DP2. Maybe this week if I can find the time I'll go out and watch Solo, but that's a big IF. I already have tickets for a charity showing of JW2, so that'll take up some of my time too.

The thing is, Solo was never going to be the success people expected it to be. Whether or not TLJ came before it, I don't think there are enough people interested in a prequel about Solo. Also, the stories of production woes didn't help it at all. I honestly thought the movie would be bad and dismissed it early on (even before TLJ).

So yeah I do believe that Solo and DP2 destroyed each other's box office receipts and to an extent, were affected by the hits that were BP2 and IW. They are also sandwiched by JW2 which I expect to do much better than either Solo or DP2.

 

[Sachiel]

TLJ did more damage to Luke than the prequels did to Vader.

 

[Wor-Gar]

Whats funny is that Batman kinda did the same in Rises and he quit and he was hiding.

Which is one of the many reasons TDKR sucks. Even its title tried to suck life from the great movie before it.

 

[crows]

I am unashamed to say I liked TLJ (more than TFA at least) but I did not watch Solo. I'm one of those who chose to use my time to watch IW then DP2. Maybe this week if I can find the time I'll go out and watch Solo, but that's a big IF. I already have tickets for a charity showing of JW2, so that'll take up some of my time too.

The thing is, Solo was never going to be the success people expected it to be. Whether or not TLJ came before it, I don't think there are enough people interested in a prequel about Solo. Also, the stories of production woes didn't help it at all. I honestly thought the movie would be bad and dismissed it early on (even before TLJ).

So yeah I do believe that Solo and DP2 destroyed each other's box office receipts and to an extent, were affected by the hits that were BP2 and IW. They are also sandwiched by JW2 which I expect to do much better than either Solo or DP2.

if solo came out instead of rogue one it would have done rogue one numbers. specially coming before the last jedi

Anything coming after the last jedi was going to suffer because of the last jedi. Rian Jhonson made sure that any project after his movie was going to take a fall.

if this was the first movie after force awakens to come out i could have seen everyone excited about it. i could have seen people being happy. specially after Han died.

 

[e30ernest]

if solo came out instead of rogue one it would have done rogue one numbers. specially coming before the last jedi

I don't know about that. Again, there wasn't a lot of interest even in Solo even before TLJ. When Solo was first announced I know a lot of people bummed out since what they wanted to see was an Obi Wan story.

 

[Khev]

Even Obi wan did go to face Vader before his death and he didnt freaking Project himself via Skype using the force, he actually went to fight him one last time.

Luke was made SUCH A coward he couldn't even face Kylo for real..... thats how scared he was and how weak he was. Luke literally becomes the most coward and weak character in all of star wars

While I don't agree with the full extent of your conclusions there is some real validity to this. Johnson said he had Luke do the Force Projection because he wanted Luke to be fully in control of the duel from beginning to end which proved difficult since "being in control" couldn't translate to Luke killing Kylo because Kylo has to come back for the end of the trilogy.

He wanted:

1. Luke and Kylo to have a face to face showdown
2. Luke not to kill Kylo
3. But not have Luke "defeated" in combat by Kylo either
4. The entire duel to go the way Luke wanted

The problem is by forcing all four elements together (because Rian wanted them together no matter what!) he did indeed create a scenario that begged the question of "why did Luke *the character* want to do those things that Rian *the director* wanted him to do. Was Luke so vain (or if you want to be unkind "cowardly") that he would only enter a battle that he knew he could control from beginning to end? Because you have to find an organic story reason that he'd want to do that.

Why project instead of showing up in person? The film didn't really establish that. I liked TLJ so I hand wave that he either couldn't get there in time even at lightspeed or that he couldn't get his X-Wing working again. And IMO Johnson should have shown that. Like maybe have one last scene at Ach-To before the Crait battle begins showing Luke turn and look at the smoldering tree. Then turn and look at his X-Wing. Furrow his brow, let's out a sigh and lower his head with his eyes closed. He appears to be dejected one last time but the camera lingers on him and we see dejection turn to resolve. He marches to the cliff and raises his hand and we see the water above his X-Wing start to bubble.

Cut back to Crait and the entire finale plays out exactly as it does in the theatrical cut. However when Luke is revealed to be a Projection and then we see him on the island and dying in front of the sunset this time the montage shows the setting sun, shadows falling on the island with two additional shots of Luke's parked X-Wing, on dry land with the cockpit open and a bunch of red warning lights flashing on the dash, revealing to the audience that it didn't work so everyone could go "oh, THAT'S why he had to pull the mother of all Jedi tricks out of his *** with that projection thing, got it!"

I think that would have gone a long way toward bringing the entire audience on board with his actions and IMO was a real oversight by Johnson. Because Luke's motives at the end aren't polarizing because they're so edgy and artistic (which Johnson apparently wants to pretend is the case), they're polarizing because he didn't show the audience enough info for them to come to the right conclusions about Luke's actions, and that's on him.

 

[cerealkeller]

Whats funny is that Batman kinda did the same in Rises and he quit and he was hiding.

But when Bane came out and started attacking the city Batman didnt coward on us and he actually went to face bane. he was going to die to save his city.

Luke just wanted to die, Luke didnt care that a new empire rose, luke didnt care that his nephew was slaving people and killing people. Luke didnt care that Han got killed. his own friend

rian just made luke a miserable old grumpy fart.

Heroes having to hide and losing hope is nothing new. Luke hiding in the island was not the problem.
the problem is what he did after Rey found him. the ending doesnt make up for him not training her properly or for him not facing Kylo in real life instead of being a hologram

IF Luke wanted to die why not face kylo face to face. Luke was a coward to the very end. a coward to his death.

Do you understand at all what Luke was LITERALLY trying to do? Read my post a few posts back. That is what Luke was doing.

It's like some people need to be hit over the head with a video review or a vlog where someone tells them exactly what is happening to understand subtext.


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