Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2)

[crows]

Do you understand at all what Luke was LITERALLY trying to do? Read my post a few posts back. That is what Luke was doing.

It's like some people need to be hit over the head with a video review or a vlog where someone tells them exactly what is happening to understand subtext.


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okay so in 30 years luke didnt grow as a person at all
hes is still the whiny teenager we saw in a new hope....
luke didnt learn anything from facing his father or mastering the force
yeah. luke is the exact same character, the same person after all this time.... he did not mature at all. he might be an old guy but deep inside he is still the same quitter teenager that whine about everything

jesus, the leghts you people will go to defend this movie....

 

[pixletwin]

Luke wasn’t a coward. You have to think of his character arc as going from William the Conqueror to Ghandi.

That obviously wasn’t the best choice for the franchise but to brand him as a coward does the character more disservice than what others may accuse Rian Johnson of doing.

 

[xipotec]

Even Obi wan did go to face Vader before his death and he didnt freaking Project himself via Skype using the force, he actually went to fight him one last time.

Luke was made SUCH A coward he couldn't even face Kylo for real..... thats how scared he was and how weak he was. Luke literally becomes the most coward and weak character in all of star wars

Wow ? Surprised you feel that way. I took it as Luke was attempting to teach Kylo a final lesson. For all his talk about killing the past, Kylo clearly cannot. He is hell bent of killing Luke, that in itself shows he himself is obsessed with the past, chasing ghosts if you will.

Luke was schooling Kylo BIGTIME , getting in his head , and showing him he was stuck in his own haunted past.

Without doing anything really, Luke owned Kylo’s head and honestly I think he drove him a bit crazy.


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[Python]

It's like some people need to be hit over the head with a video review or a vlog where someone tells them exactly what is happening to understand subtext.

The flip side of that is that some people like to interpret subtext where there likely isn't any and assume a smug arrogance while doing so (I'm not suggesting you did the last part, but we see it a lot) The last Jedi was not a smart movie imo, it was just a bad and poorly written movie. It is always interesting how people have such different takes on things none the less...

 

[Sachiel]

Luke wasn’t a coward. You have to think of his character arc as going from William the Conqueror to Ghandi.

That obviously wasn’t the best choice for the franchise but to brand him as a coward does the character more disservice than what others may accuse Rian Johnson of doing.

He ran away to hide on some island until he died. He cut himself off from the force so he wouldn't have to feel the death and destruction Kylo and the First Order would bring. He abandoned his family and friends. He was going to suicide until Rey showed up. He whined about the Prequels.

He was a ****ing coward.

okay so in 30 years luke didnt grow as a person at all
hes is still the whiny teenager we saw in a new hope....
luke didnt learn anything from facing his father or mastering the force
yeah. luke is the exact same character, the same person after all this time.... he did not mature at all. he might be an old guy but deep inside he is still the same quitter teenager that whine about everything

jesus, the lengths you people will go to defend this movie....

He felt like ANH Luke without the character development of ESB and ROTJ.

 

[YoNoSe]

He whined about the Prequels.

He was a ****ing coward.

That's a pretty wide net.

 

[pixletwin]

He ran away to hide on some island until he died. He cut himself off from the force so he wouldn't have to feel the death and destruction Kylo and the First Order would bring. He abandoned his family and friends. He was going to suicide until Rey showed up. He whined about the Prequels.

He was a ****ing coward.





He felt like ANH Luke without the character development of ESB and ROTJ.

He was going to suicide? What on earth gave you that impression? LOL

 

[crows]

Luke wasn’t a coward. You have to think of his character arc as going from William the Conqueror to Ghandi.

That obviously wasn’t the best choice for the franchise but to brand him as a coward does the character more disservice than what others may accuse Rian Johnson of doing.

Wow ? Surprised you feel that way. I took it as Luke was attempting to teach Kylo a final lesson. For all his talk about killing the past, Kylo clearly cannot. He is hell bent of killing Luke, that in itself shows he himself is obsessed with the past, chasing ghosts if you will.

Luke was schooling Kylo BIGTIME , getting in his head , and showing him he was stuck in his own haunted past.

Without doing anything really, Luke owned Kylo’s head and honestly I think he drove him a bit crazy.


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I wonder what JJ had in mind for luke, I wonder what would his plans be. I doubt he would have made what Rian did.

How can you go from facing the most dangerous guy in the galaxy (Vader) and try to redeem him to want to kill your kid nephew because you sensed darkness in him?
how can you want to kill him before talking to his parents at least...... as dark as Kylo could have been, Luke could have at least try to talk to Leia....

thats why it seems so bizarre, if the original trilogy didnt exist then his actions wouldn't be so extremely bizarre. but Luke both faced Vader AND the emperor and was not afraid, it could have meant his DEATH.......

he could have died yet not only did he not give up on his dad but didnt join the dark side.... thats my point, Just like Batman in Rises, Luke faced death and defeat yet he never turned back or got so scared he wanted to hide.
Obi wan hid out of necessity and he kept tabs on Luke, watched him. Obi wan didnt hide because he was afraid or anything. he knew one day he could help luke.
Yoda hid out of defeat. out of necessity

Luke tries to kill Kylo out of fear. Luke abandons everyone out of fear. luke hides in the island out of fear. luke refuses to help rey out of fear. luke Quits training rey out of fear.

fear, fear fear fear. fear fear. so according to Rian Luke's character arc is that he goes from becoming the most courageous character in the original trilogy who learns about forgiveness and literally saves his father and brings him into the light side...

to the most scared character of the entire universe? even freaking Jar Jar binks wasn't as scared as luke was now.... the only one as scared would be C3PO... so luke went from hero and a badass jedi to mirror C3PO's worried mind set?
thanks rian.

 

[Sachiel]

He was going to suicide? What on earth gave you that impression? LOL

Rey found him standing on a cliff in his Jedi robe, then he ran to his hut and changed into his grimy green and brown hermit clothes.

From TLJ visual dictionary:



"Luke now only wears this robe to undertake one final Jedi rite."

i.e. Become one with the Force

Search your feelings. You will know it to be true.

 

[YoNoSe]

According to the novelization he dons his robes when he attempts to burn the tree/library. When Rey meets him (according to the book) he had just returned from one of many abandoned attempts to destroy the texts. It's not stated in the movie, but the only other time we see him wear his robes is when he goes to do exactly that.

 

[crows]

Rey found him standing on a cliff in his Jedi robe, then he ran to his hut and changed into his grimy green and brown hermit clothes.

From TLJ visual dictionary:

View attachment 411843

"Luke now only wears this robe to undertake one final Jedi rite."

i.e. Become one with the Force

Search your feelings. You will know it to be true.

 

[Khev]

He ran away to hide on some island until he died. He cut himself off from the force so he wouldn't have to feel the death and destruction Kylo and the First Order would bring.

I can understand being put off by Luke's arc in TLJ (though I obviously liked it) but your above statement is just flat out wrong. You don't need director commentary or a novelization to know why Luke cut himself off from the Force either, he states it in plain English in the finished film.

I wonder what JJ had in mind for luke, I wonder what would his plans be. I doubt he would have made what Rian did.

Who knows what JJ's broader plans for Luke were but we do know that he never intended for Luke to be cut off from the Force. The final scene of TFA was originally Luke standing on the cliff levitating some giant boulders when Rey approached him until Johnson begged JJ to change it so that'd it sync up with his film.

 

[YoNoSe]

I can understand being put off by Luke's arc in TLJ (though I obviously liked it) but your above statement is just flat out wrong. You don't need director commentary or a novelization to know why Luke cut himself off from the Force either, he states it in plain English in the finished film.



Who knows what JJ's broader plans for Luke were but we do know that he never intended for Luke to be cut off from the Force. The final scene of TFA was originally Luke standing on the cliff levitating some giant boulders when Rey approached him until Johnson begged JJ to change it so that'd it sync up with his film.

I thought the only change Johnson asked for was to swap out BB-8 with R2 on the Luke mission?

 

[ajp4mgs]

I admit that I cringe every time I hear Luke say, "I came here to die." And I cringe at the goofy lightsaber toss at the beginning. But I'm still surprised that there's so much objection to the Force projection tactic (Luke on Crait).

I don't have a problem with it because Luke uses his mastery of the Force to salvage a victory when no victory should have been possible. How else would Luke have won? By going to Crait and killing his nephew (after getting credit for refusing to kill Vader years earlier)? By having his nephew kill him in a LS battle and get everything he wants?

Kylo has a thirst for blood because he feels that's how he can prove himself worthy of the Vader legacy. It's clear that he's obsessed with fulfilling his grandfather's destiny. He killed Han for it, and he most certainly wanted to kill Luke. Killing Luke would be like a graduation for Vader Jr. (Kylo). Luke knew that. Maybe the dumbest thing Luke could have done is let Kylo have that victory, and assume the mantle that he's so desperate for.

When Obi-Wan had his duel with Vader in ANH, there were a lot of similarities. Kenobi had defeated Anakin when both were closer to their prime, but he knew he couldn't defeat Vader after his full descent into the Dark Side (and fueled further by a need for revenge). The best Kenobi could hope for was to buy Luke and crew the time they needed. I see it as Vader wanting to kill Obi-Wan way more than Obi-Wan would ever want to destroy any remnant of Anakin. Obi-Wan had no chance this time.

Luke faced the same situation in the ST. Kylo sees Luke as the last barrier between him and his grandfather's legacy (plus fueled by revenge). Kylo wants to kill Luke; Luke doesn't want to kill his nephew. Even if Luke is stronger with the Force, a fully-committed Kylo (drawing power from the Dark Side) would have an advantage over a heartbroken Luke who would merely be fulfilling his duty in killing his nephew. It's almost a desire-versus-duty thing.

Vader had the same problem when battling Luke in the OT. He didn't want to kill his son. And Luke only truly got the upper hand on Vader (no pun intended) in the LS battle from ROTJ after he was fueled by rage when Vader threatened Leia. It was Luke's "Oh, hell no!" moment. Rage takes away restraint. An unobstructed willingness to kill provides a major advantage in any duel. Kylo had it. Luke didn't. Letting Kylo have that victory would have been dumb. And seeing Luke murder his nephew would have been problematic too.

Luke found a way to still best Kylo. Win. He used a mastery of the Force. Win! He bought his sister and her crew the time they needed. Win. He went out on his own terms, leaving Kylo empty, embarrassed, and outsmarted (bettered) by Luke. Win!! I'm okay with all of that. Luke could have gone out in worse ways (Han).

 

[YoNoSe]

I'm okay with the Force projection as a demonstration of Luke's ultimate power and concern/involvement in the story as constructed but I fundamentally disagree with the construction of the story to get it there.

 

[Khev]

I thought the only change Johnson asked for was to swap out BB-8 with R2 on the Luke mission?

Hmm when I pull up stories about TFA's modified ending it reads as if Johnson himself was actually planning on Luke levitating boulders until changing his mind about Luke's connection to the Force. So who knows who asked who to change what:

https://www.slashfilm.com/star-wars-the-force-awakens-original-ending/

 

[YoNoSe]

Hmm when I pull up stories about TFA's modified ending it reads as if Johnson himself was actually planning on Luke levitating boulders until changing his mind about Luke's connection to the Force. So who knows who asked who to change what:

https://www.slashfilm.com/star-wars-the-force-awakens-original-ending/

Hm. That info in the link is confusing because it implies floating rocks at the end of TFA but also says it was Johnson's idea and then he changed it.... Maybe it's a translation issue since it says it's from a Chinese outlet. It quotes Hamill as saying "I called JJ or Johnson to say..." So, again,

I guess the bottom line is Johnson was definitely under the gun to complete the TLJ scripts and in communication with Abrams so anything is possible. My own opinion based on everything I read is that Johnson came in more interested in leaving a mark on SW than being a team player. I keep going back to that Abrams quote saying he had read the TLJ script and wished he was directing it, and how differently that sounds before and after seeing the movie.


But also part of me kind of likes one filmmaker sort of daring another to follow him, on a strictly craftsman level.

 

[Bravomite]

I believe Mark mentioned in an interview that JJ originally had him levitating the boulders at the end of TFA - however, when he read the script for TLJ he realised that the ending for TFA and the beginning of TLJ no longer matched up. He said he called up JJ to point out the discrepancy and JJ told him not to worry and that he and Rian had already caught it in post production and the levitating boulders had been scrubbed.

 

[YoNoSe]

I believe Mark mentioned in an interview that JJ originally had him levitating the boulders at the end of TFA - however, when he read the script for TLJ he realised that the ending for TFA and the beginning of TLJ no longer matched up. He said he called up JJ to point out the discrepancy and JJ told him not to worry and that he and Rian had already caught it in post production and the levitating boulders had been scrubbed.

That makes more sense, thanks.

 

[Sachiel]

I can understand being put off by Luke's arc in TLJ (though I obviously liked it) but your above statement is just flat out wrong. You don't need director commentary or a novelization to know why Luke cut himself off from the Force either, he states it in plain English in the finished film.

“For me, the reason that Luke had to turn off the Force was because of Leia. Because if he didn’t, if he had a connection to Leia, if he could see his sister suffering, if he could hear her calls for help, there’s no way he’d be able to do what he thinks in his head is what he has to do – which is to stay on that island (Ach-to) for the greater good of the galaxy.”