Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2)

[Khev]

“For me, the reason that Luke had to turn off the Force was because of Leia. Because if he didn’t, if he had a connection to Leia, if he could see his sister suffering, if he could hear her calls for help, there’s no way he’d be able to do what he thinks in his head is what he has to do – which is to stay on that island (Ach-to) for the greater good of the galaxy.”

Never said in the movie. What he did say in the movie was that the legacy of the Jedi is failure and that even his own hubris was part of the problem. He also stated that powerful light (which he was) equals powerful dark which he didn't want to be responsible for inadvertently creating. Again I'm not saying that that was the best way to go or that you have to like it but nowhere on film is that actual quote you state above exemplified.

 

[Franken Berry]

You have to think of his character arc as going from William the Conqueror to Ghandi.

I agree with this. However, the failure of TLJ unintentionally demonstrates the absurdity of pacifism, which I presume Johnson subscribes to. You'd literally have to sit back and watch, in the event that a tyrant (ie. Kylo) murders everyone you love... Not a great plan. Only a pacifist could enjoy Luke's arc. You'd have to agree that avoiding violence is better than stopping someone who harms others. Most people don't find it convincing.

If you're going to defend pacifism, you have to be a lot more persuasive than Johnson was, with TLJ.

Ghandi's advice to the Jews during the Holocaust:

"If I were a Jew and were born in Germany... I would claim Germany as my home even as the tallest gentile German may, and challenge him to shoot me or cast me in the dungeon.... And suffering voluntarily undergone will bring them an inner strength and joy.... The calculated violence of Hitler may even result in a general massacre of the Jews by way of his first answer to the declaration of such hostilities. But if the Jewish mind could be prepared for voluntary suffering, even the massacre I have imagined could be turned into a day of thanksgiving and joy that Jehovah had wrought deliverance of the race even at the hands of the tyrant.”

 

[Sachiel]

Never said in the movie. What he did say in the movie was that the legacy of the Jedi is failure and that even his own hubris was part of the problem. He also stated that powerful light (which he was) equals powerful dark which he didn't want to be responsible for inadvertently creating. Again I'm not saying that that was the best way to go or that you have to like it but nowhere on film is that actual quote you state above exemplified.

Luke sensed darkness in Ben and when he read Ben's mind while he slept (not creepy at all), Luke saw a vision of "destruction, pain and death and the end of everything I love".

He closed himself off from the Force so he wouldn't have to feel the deaths of his sister, his friends and countless others that he knew was coming because for some asinine reason he thought running away and staying out of it was the right thing to do.

 

[pixletwin]

I agree with this. However, the failure of TLJ unintentionally demonstrates the absurdity of pacifism, which I presume Johnson subscribes to. You'd literally have to sit back and watch, in the event that a tyrant (ie. Kylo) murders everyone you love... Not a great plan. Only a pacifist could enjoy Luke's arc. You'd have to agree that avoiding violence is better than stopping someone who harms others. Most people don't find it convincing.

If you're going to defend pacifism, you have to be a lot more persuasive than Johnson was, with TLJ.

Ghandi's advice to the Jews during the Holocaust:

"If I were a Jew and were born in Germany... I would claim Germany as my home even as the tallest gentile German may, and challenge him to shoot me or cast me in the dungeon.... And suffering voluntarily undergone will bring them an inner strength and joy.... The calculated violence of Hitler may even result in a general massacre of the Jews by way of his first answer to the declaration of such hostilities. But if the Jewish mind could be prepared for voluntary suffering, even the massacre I have imagined could be turned into a day of thanksgiving and joy that Jehovah had wrought deliverance of the race even at the hands of the tyrant.”

All great points. I basically agree. Are anti-SW fans basically doing what Ghandi says to do? Hmmmmm.... food for thought.

 

[Khev]

Luke sensed darkness in Ben and when he read Ben's mind while he slept (not creepy at all)

He closed himself off from the Force so he wouldn't have to feel the deaths of his sister, his friends and countless others that he knew was coming because for some asinine reason he thought running away and staying out of it was the right thing to do.

Would have been a perfect tagline for the poster, lol.

 

[crows]

the fact that Luke was never able to face Leia or Han and just hid away is what makes him a coward too..... Ghandi stood against his oppressors. so did Jesus. so did Martin Luther king.

Luke just went to an island to hide from everyone because of the shame he had at failing......

 

[Franken Berry]

All great points. I basically agree. Are anti-SW fans basically doing what Ghandi says to do? Hmmmmm.... food for thought.

I know you're joking but... It's the difference between self-sufficiency and sanctions. A better analogy would be that anti-SW fans are doing to Disney what the UN has done to North Korea. In this sense, Kathleen Kennedy is Kim Jong-Un, and TLJ fans are convinced that she invented the hamburger, doesn't go potty, and that she's well loved internationally with the exception of a few angry alt right bots. Even as the Star Wars regime collapses around them, TLJ fans insist that everything is fine until Solo is starved. Then they blame the memorial weekend, or Deadpool and the Avengers, or "franchise fatigue". Meanwhile, the regime will continue to starve at the hands of their leader.

 

[TaliBane]

While I don't agree with the full extent of your conclusions there is some real validity to this. Johnson said he had Luke do the Force Projection because he wanted Luke to be fully in control of the duel from beginning to end which proved difficult since "being in control" couldn't translate to Luke killing Kylo because Kylo has to come back for the end of the trilogy.

He wanted:

1. Luke and Kylo to have a face to face showdown
2. Luke not to kill Kylo
3. But not have Luke "defeated" in combat by Kylo either
4. The entire duel to go the way Luke wanted

The problem is by forcing all four elements together (because Rian wanted them together no matter what!) he did indeed create a scenario that begged the question of "why did Luke *the character* want to do those things that Rian *the director* wanted him to do. Was Luke so vain (or if you want to be unkind "cowardly") that he would only enter a battle that he knew he could control from beginning to end? Because you have to find an organic story reason that he'd want to do that.

Why project instead of showing up in person? The film didn't really establish that. I liked TLJ so I hand wave that he either couldn't get there in time even at lightspeed or that he couldn't get his X-Wing working again. And IMO Johnson should have shown that. Like maybe have one last scene at Ach-To before the Crait battle begins showing Luke turn and look at the smoldering tree. Then turn and look at his X-Wing. Furrow his brow, let's out a sigh and lower his head with his eyes closed. He appears to be dejected one last time but the camera lingers on him and we see dejection turn to resolve. He marches to the cliff and raises his hand and we see the water above his X-Wing start to bubble.

Cut back to Crait and the entire finale plays out exactly as it does in the theatrical cut. However when Luke is revealed to be a Projection and then we see him on the island and dying in front of the sunset this time the montage shows the setting sun, shadows falling on the island with two additional shots of Luke's parked X-Wing, on dry land with the cockpit open and a bunch of red warning lights flashing on the dash, revealing to the audience that it didn't work so everyone could go "oh, THAT'S why he had to pull the mother of all Jedi tricks out of his *** with that projection thing, got it!"

I think that would have gone a long way toward bringing the entire audience on board with his actions and IMO was a real oversight by Johnson. Because Luke's motives at the end aren't polarizing because they're so edgy and artistic (which Johnson apparently wants to pretend is the case), they're polarizing because he didn't show the audience enough info for them to come to the right conclusions about Luke's actions, and that's on him.

But as an audience we can accept the Falcon grinding and coughing, and the hyperdrive malfunctioning (because it's fun and feels organic,) but using "Luke's car wouldn't start" as a reason for the projection would have felt pretty weak and a cop-out even if shown in that way in SUCH a key moment. And it'd be like "umm, what do you expect when you store your x-wing UNDER salt water, you dope."

If he couldn't go because of something to do with the force, or leia, or Yoda/Ben, or the tree, or something more about DRAMA or LORE than contrived/coincidental mechanical failure, then we could have bought it.

It's the key problem with the force projection - Luke apparently has the choice to either physically go, or do the projection, and he chooses the way that comes across as vain/cowardly (depending on POV.)

But yeah, there were ways to make it seem both the only choice Luke has, and even perhaps a clever choice - but nothing in the movie as presented did that.

I am currently watching the TLJ recut that Cereal Keller and others here recommended and haven't gotten to that last part yet so maybe they inserted (cut scene) or changed something to achieve that.

 

[TaliBane]

I agree with this. However, the failure of TLJ unintentionally demonstrates the absurdity of pacifism, which I presume Johnson subscribes to. You'd literally have to sit back and watch, in the event that a tyrant (ie. Kylo) murders everyone you love... Not a great plan. Only a pacifist could enjoy Luke's arc. You'd have to agree that avoiding violence is better than stopping someone who harms others. Most people don't find it convincing.

If you're going to defend pacifism, you have to be a lot more persuasive than Johnson was, with TLJ.

Ghandi's advice to the Jews during the Holocaust:

"If I were a Jew and were born in Germany... I would claim Germany as my home even as the tallest gentile German may, and challenge him to shoot me or cast me in the dungeon.... And suffering voluntarily undergone will bring them an inner strength and joy.... The calculated violence of Hitler may even result in a general massacre of the Jews by way of his first answer to the declaration of such hostilities. But if the Jewish mind could be prepared for voluntary suffering, even the massacre I have imagined could be turned into a day of thanksgiving and joy that Jehovah had wrought deliverance of the race even at the hands of the tyrant.”

Ghandi's words on pacifism to the Allies during WWII are even more striking:

“This manslaughter must be stopped. You are losing; if you persist, it will only result in greater bloodshed. Hitler is not a bad man.”

The deeper lesson for TLJ's take on the Rebellion is that quote about war itself: war doesn't determine who is right, only who is left.

You really have to wonder - had Luke stepped in to help much earlier instead of getting lost and bitter... would there be much more of the rebellion left than that couple of dozen stragglers who escape from Crait at the end of TLJ?

Luke is right - and none are left.

"The Lost Jedi" indeed.

 

[e30ernest]

I wonder what JJ had in mind for luke, I wonder what would his plans be. I doubt he would have made what Rian did.

I seriously doubt JJ actually had a plan. He's notorious for writing "mystery boxes" with no intent to revealing what that may be. Look at "Lost" for example. It ended in a mess.

fear, fear fear fear. fear fear. so according to Rian Luke's character arc is that he goes from becoming the most courageous character in the original trilogy who learns about forgiveness and literally saves his father and brings him into the light side...

to the most scared character of the entire universe? even freaking Jar Jar binks wasn't as scared as luke was now.... the only one as scared would be C3PO... so luke went from hero and a badass jedi to mirror C3PO's worried mind set?
thanks rian.

I didn't see it as fear, but rather as regret. Luke's arrogance in ESB lost him his arm. His arrogance in ROTJ almost lost him his sister (but he got lucky when Vader turned). His arrogance this time around lead to him turning Ben Solo into Kylo Ren when he thought he can train Ben despite him sensing the darkness inside him.

Everything Luke did in TLJ looked to me as a reaction to regret.

Who knows what JJ's broader plans for Luke were but we do know that he never intended for Luke to be cut off from the Force. The final scene of TFA was originally Luke standing on the cliff levitating some giant boulders when Rey approached him until Johnson begged JJ to change it so that'd it sync up with his film.

If JJ didn't intend Luke to be cut out of the Force then I think TFA would make even less sense. Why would Luke leave his sister and the rebels then? That would be worse I think.

Actually, I think to some extent, JJ wrote Rian into a corner.

I admit that I cringe every time I hear Luke say, "I came here to die." And I cringe at the goofy lightsaber toss at the beginning. But I'm still surprised that there's so much objection to the Force projection tactic (Luke on Crait).

I don't have a problem with it because Luke uses his mastery of the Force to salvage a victory when no victory should have been possible. How else would Luke have won? By going to Crait and killing his nephew (after getting credit for refusing to kill Vader years earlier)? By having his nephew kill him in a LS battle and get everything he wants?

Kylo has a thirst for blood because he feels that's how he can prove himself worthy of the Vader legacy. It's clear that he's obsessed with fulfilling his grandfather's destiny. He killed Han for it, and he most certainly wanted to kill Luke. Killing Luke would be like a graduation for Vader Jr. (Kylo). Luke knew that. Maybe the dumbest thing Luke could have done is let Kylo have that victory, and assume the mantle that he's so desperate for.

When Obi-Wan had his duel with Vader in ANH, there were a lot of similarities. Kenobi had defeated Anakin when both were closer to their prime, but he knew he couldn't defeat Vader after his full descent into the Dark Side (and fueled further by a need for revenge). The best Kenobi could hope for was to buy Luke and crew the time they needed. I see it as Vader wanting to kill Obi-Wan way more than Obi-Wan would ever want to destroy any remnant of Anakin. Obi-Wan had no chance this time.

Luke faced the same situation in the ST. Kylo sees Luke as the last barrier between him and his grandfather's legacy (plus fueled by revenge). Kylo wants to kill Luke; Luke doesn't want to kill his nephew. Even if Luke is stronger with the Force, a fully-committed Kylo (drawing power from the Dark Side) would have an advantage over a heartbroken Luke who would merely be fulfilling his duty in killing his nephew. It's almost a desire-versus-duty thing.

Vader had the same problem when battling Luke in the OT. He didn't want to kill his son. And Luke only truly got the upper hand on Vader (no pun intended) in the LS battle from ROTJ after he was fueled by rage when Vader threatened Leia. It was Luke's "Oh, hell no!" moment. Rage takes away restraint. An unobstructed willingness to kill provides a major advantage in any duel. Kylo had it. Luke didn't. Letting Kylo have that victory would have been dumb. And seeing Luke murder his nephew would have been problematic too.

Luke found a way to still best Kylo. Win. He used a mastery of the Force. Win! He bought his sister and her crew the time they needed. Win. He went out on his own terms, leaving Kylo empty, embarrassed, and outsmarted (bettered) by Luke. Win!! I'm okay with all of that. Luke could have gone out in worse ways (Han).

Agreed

 

[TaliBane]

I admit that I cringe every time I hear Luke say, "I came here to die." And I cringe at the goofy lightsaber toss at the beginning. But I'm still surprised that there's so much objection to the Force projection tactic (Luke on Crait).

I don't have a problem with it because Luke uses his mastery of the Force to salvage a victory when no victory should have been possible. How else would Luke have won? By going to Crait and killing his nephew (after getting credit for refusing to kill Vader years earlier)? By having his nephew kill him in a LS battle and get everything he wants?

Luke found a way to still best Kylo. Win. He used a mastery of the Force. Win! He bought his sister and her crew the time they needed. Win. He went out on his own terms, leaving Kylo empty, embarrassed, and outsmarted (bettered) by Luke. Win!! I'm okay with all of that. Luke could have gone out in worse ways (Han).

But Luke never actually TELLS anyone about what he plans to do on Crait. Not even Leia, even though he stops to "chat." They're all just standing around watching Luke do his thing out on the salt field - totally unaware he's about to go *poof* and disappear, meanwhile... they're all still trapped in the base and not escaping presumably because they want to see this epic "Luke saves the day" showdown. Poe just so happens to figure it out in time (in a somewhat Scooby Doo Fred/Velma-revelation moment.)

The issue isn't even just the holo-projection thing, which has a host of issues centered on perceived cowardice, logic errors and violation of established saga rules (as seen in many debates on here) - it's the whole context in which it's used also.

That is pretty much in character for Luke though. Looking back at the OT, Luke always had the tendency to whine and give up.

Luke's arrogance in ESB lost him his arm. His arrogance in ROTJ almost lost him his sister (but he got lucky when Vader turned).

Whiny, gives up AND arrogant?

I'm not sure you saw the same OT I did. Luke's "arrogance" in ESB for example was to go against Yoda/Ben's advice and go to rescue his friends who were in immense danger. If that's arrogance, then the world needs more of it.

 

[ajp4mgs]

But Luke never actually TELLS anyone about what he plans to do on Crait. Not even Leia, even though he stops to "chat." They're all just standing around watching Luke do his thing out on the salt field - totally unaware he's about to go *poof* and disappear, meanwhile... they're all still trapped in the base and not escaping presumably because they want to see this epic "Luke saves the day" showdown. Poe just so happens to figure it out in time (in a somewhat Scooby Doo Fred/Velma-revelation moment.)

The issue isn't even just the holo-projection thing, which has a host of issues centered on perceived cowardice, logic errors and violation of established saga rules (as seen in many debates on here) - it's the whole context in which it's used also.

Yeah, I concede the point that having Poe figure out Luke's plan in that way was ill-conceived. The only justifications I can offer would be mere conjecture. Maybe Rian Johnson wrote the scene thinking that Luke would assume that the Resistance folks wouldn't be so stupid as to just stand there instead of taking advantage of the pause in the First Order's advance. I mean, seriously, if they just saw Luke walk in from somewhere in the back, and still decided to just stand there as spectators instead of trying to find a similar way out, then they deserved to be beaten.

It would have made more sense for Leia to tell them what Luke was doing. When I watch Luke hand Leia Han's dice (and I'm starting to hate those dice), and she has that astonished/surprised reaction, I thought it was because she realized that he wasn't really there since she couldn't feel his hand. At that point, she would've been able to put the pieces together and get them to focus on escaping. But, again, the writing here left something lacking because we're not even sure if Leia knew that wasn't really Luke. And she wasn't being proactive; as you noted, it was Poe.

The writing was clunky in several parts, and I'm not going to deny that. I think Johnson wanted to make a Star Wars movie that could also stand on it's own as a great and well-written movie. Frankly, I don't think he's good enough (or proven enough) to have that type of aspiration. But, for me, the Force projection was a highlight. I appreciate that device because it worked to keep the audience guessing, it showed Luke mastering the Force, and it let him best Kylo on a couple of different levels. I didn't see it as cowardice to use the projection; I saw it as Luke's best chance at redemption without giving Kylo what he wanted.

In coming to terms with Luke not actually going in person, I asked myself: what would have been an alternative that would have better served the story? Would it be Luke taking down the whole First Order? That'd be a bit much. Luke defeating Kylo and slaying his nephew? I don't think so. Luke turning Kylo back to the good side? Derivitive and lame. Luke getting killed by Kylo? No thanks.

I know that most fans (yourself included) don't see Luke's storyline in TLJ the same way I do. I respect that. And I recognize tons of problems with TLJ too (injecting SJW nonsense was awful; abandoning Force Awakens storylines annoyed me; Leia Poppins was so regrettable; Canto Bight was as bad as anything in the horrible prequels). But, I overlook a lot of flaws because I appreciate such a stark departure from the pandering and often embarrassing PT. I wanted this material taken seriously again. Even when the writing in TLJ failed, I never questioned the intent to deliver something that sought to elevate Star Wars. And, for me personally, the Luke Force projection was an example of when I fully appreciated the end result (even if still flawed).

 

[TaliBane]

Yeah, I concede the point that having Poe figure out Luke's plan in that way was ill-conceived. The only justifications I can offer would be mere conjecture. Maybe Rian Johnson wrote the scene thinking that Luke would assume that the Resistance folks wouldn't be so stupid as to just stand there instead of taking advantage of the pause in the First Order's advance. I mean, seriously, if they just saw Luke walk in from somewhere in the back, and still decided to just stand there as spectators instead of trying to find a similar way out, then they deserved to be beaten.

It would have made more sense for Leia to tell them what Luke was doing. When I watch Luke hand Leia Han's dice (and I'm starting to hate those dice), and she has that astonished/surprised reaction, I thought it was because she realized that he wasn't really there since she couldn't feel his hand. At that point, she would've been able to put the pieces together and get them to focus on escaping. But, again, the writing here left something lacking because we're not even sure if Leia knew that wasn't really Luke. And she wasn't being proactive; as you noted, it was Poe.

Yeah, there just really needed to be that moment where Luke kinda looks at her, stopping their conversation and Leia knows something is up - and we cut out, then later, everyone's starting to watch and there's Leia calling everyone t escape and Poe kinda goes "ohhhh..." as he realizes it is a ruse.

The writing was clunky in several parts, and I'm not going to deny that. I think Johnson wanted to make a Star Wars movie that could also stand on it's own as a great and well-written movie. Frankly, I don't think he's good enough (or proven enough) to have that type of aspiration. But, for me, the Force projection was a highlight. I appreciate that device because it worked to keep the audience guessing, it showed Luke mastering the Force, and it let him best Kylo on a couple of different levels. I didn't see it as cowardice to use the projection; I saw it as Luke's best chance at redemption without giving Kylo what he wanted.

As I said earlier, I feel like had the context and set-up been differently done, some form of the projection idea could have worked.

In coming to terms with Luke not actually going in person, I asked myself: what would have been an alternative that would have better served the story? Would it be Luke taking down the whole First Order? That'd be a bit much. Luke defeating Kylo and slaying his nephew? I don't think so. Luke turning Kylo back to the good side? Derivitive and lame. Luke getting killed by Kylo? No thanks.

It would take a bigger brainstorming session than we have here to solve it satisfactorily.

But they had like 12 months to do it and what they came up with goes beyond the issues of "do/don't like what they did with Luke" or even the projection thing itself. There's just somewhat non-sensical, and maybe just lazy (or rushed,) things about the whole way its done - the context - that makes it frustrating to watch.

Like does Leia know? Why isn't that made clear (it's an emotional beat)? Why does he give her something that doesn't have more than a passing association with Han to Leia (they're a fun set dresser's joke from ANH)? Does she know the dice aren't real? Does she purposefully leave them for Kylo to find, if so, why don't we see that (for her son, reminder of her husband)? If Luke has died, is he waiting there as spirit until Kylo picks them up so they disappear "on cue"?

I have about another dozen, but mercifully I'll leave it there.

I know that most fans (yourself included) don't see Luke's storyline in TLJ the same way I do. I respect that. And I recognize tons of problems with TLJ too (injecting SJW nonsense was awful; abandoning Force Awakens storylines annoyed me; Leia Poppins was so regrettable; Canto Bight was as bad as anything in the horrible prequels). But, I overlook a lot of flaws because I appreciate such a stark departure from the pandering and often embarrassing PT. I wanted this material taken seriously again. Even when the writing in TLJ failed, I never questioned the intent to deliver something that sought to elevate Star Wars. And, for me personally, the Luke Force projection was an example of when I fully appreciated the end result (even if still flawed).

 

[Prime Clone]

Luke never "ran away". As Han said, he went looking for some ancient Jedi Temple. Somewhere along the line he decided self-exile was safest for the galaxy.

And he didn't shut out The Force for fear of pain, he did it to take his light side out of the equation, in the hope the darkness would not need to rise.

 

[TaliBane]

Luke never "ran away". As Han said, he went looking for some ancient Jedi Temple. Somewhere along the line he decided self-exile was safest for the galaxy.

And he didn't shut out The Force for fear of pain, he did it to take his light side out of the equation, in the hope the darkness would not need to rise.

If you consider that the force is female, all of that sounds very real-world relatable.

 

[e30ernest]

Leia Poppins was so regrettable;

I actually appreciated that this was one of the rare scientifically plausible moments shown in a Star Wars film! I mean, it was badly filmed, but it correctly shows that you can be exposed to the vacuum of space for up to 2 minutes or so and survive with minor injuries.

 

[Sachiel]

If you consider that the force is female, all of that sounds very real-world relatable.

This movie is actually pretty red pilled.

 

[Popnfresh98]

I actually appreciated that this was one of the rare scientifically plausible moments shown in a Star Wars film! I mean, it was badly filmed, but it correctly shows that you can be exposed to the vacuum of space for up to 2 minutes or so and survive with minor injuries.

Immediately followed by one of the most scientifically unplausible moments of all time; where she taps on the glass, and they all run over and hit the button to open the door to let her inside, without any airlock between them and her, and none of them suited up for what’s about to happen

I love how a bunch of mist just conveniently obscures what comes next and it cuts to the next scene

 

[e30ernest]

Immediately followed by one of the most scientifically unplausible moments of all time; where she taps on the glass, and they all run over and hit the button to open the door to let her inside, without any airlock between them and her, and none of them suited up for what’s about to happen

I love how a bunch of mist just conveniently obscures what comes next and it cuts to the next scene

The scene clearly shows the double (orange) doors of an airlock separating the bridge and the rest of the ship:

Scene in question:



And before you can say the doors cannot possibly close that fast.... Canon disagrees:

 

[Popnfresh98]

The door behind her never did close though, and we know SW doesn't follow how sound in space would normally work so we should have heard that door first. But all in all it's hardly the most important beef in a film full of oddities lol, I suppose we can just say that both the inner and outer door did their things at the same time and hence there was no sound beforehand and the camera angle obscured it.

But even then...

I still barely buy it