Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2)

[EVILFACE]

So “most people” love Solo is incorrect then.

 

[e30ernest]

I don't mind when people express their negative opinion of TLJ. I understand. I even recognize that many criticisms are perfectly valid. But, when people here start projecting their opinion as an objective statement of truth about the artistic failure of TLJ as a film, I can't help but laugh.

If you want to insist that TLJ is an objectively terrible movie (as someone earlier objected to calling it "well-made"), then you have to rationalize that every single professional film critic who praised the film is either a shill for Disney, or an *****. All of them! Or, if you admit that such a premise is unlikely, you'd have to argue that your opinion has more merit than someone who has made a living of reviewing films and has seen hundreds (perhaps thousands) of films through a professional prism. That's a really impressive level of conceit!

To suggest that TLJ is an objectively terrible movie, you have to believe that when compared to other contemporary films within the same genre, TLJ is below average in cinematography, acting, dialogue, visual effects, musical score, etc. Below average in those categories? Seriously? Worse than the prequels? Really!? How about some context, shall we?

In a franchise that included a film where the long-anticipated (nearly 20 years) on-screen revelation of how Anakin fell to the dark side and became Vader gave us a two-minute scene to explain it all, TLJ is somehow the worst SW movie? I'm not exaggerating here: Anakin turned to the dark side TWO MINUTES (maybe even fewer) after insisting to Mace Windu that killing Palpatine would violate the Jedi way (and not just to spare him - having just minutes earlier ratted out Palpatine as the Sith master). From faithful Jedi to servant of evil, and you might miss it if you blink. TWO MINUTES it took for Anakin to be on bended knee pledging his loyalty to serve the master of evil. And why? Because he wanted to keep his love interest from dying. Yes, the same love interest he decided to choke (perhaps to death - while she carried his twins) half an hour or so later. TLJ is a worse story and film than that!? Worse acting? Worse dialogue? Worse effects? Come on!

Please go back and get a whiff of stuff in ROTS like the acting when Anakin tells Mace that Palps is the Sith behind the scenes. Worse acting than those two? More cringe-worthy than, "NNNNOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!?" More poorly done than the explanation of Anakin's turn (kind of a big deal to the whole saga)? Seriously?

 

[crows]

Yeah this was shown to my son's entire school too (ranging from pre-schoolers to senior high) and the general consensus was positive among the kids. Coming out of the theater, they seemed like they had a really good time.

I find the conclusion that "majority hated TLJ" to be absurd because it is still a billion dollar film. It was positive among critics and it got an A Cinemascore. If it was really as universally hated, it wouldn't have had the legs it did, and it wouldn't have broken $1B.

I gave the example earlier in this thread, but BvS was panned critically and audiences. See how far that got....

Im sorry but i dont think Philippines is a good example of whether this is proof of the movie being loved or not.

The box office numbers of TLJ do support the theory that the majority did not hate it though. If it was as hated as some people in the internet say it was, it would have not broken 1 billion. It had a big opening so for it to continue to that height it would have had to have a lot of repeat viewings too.

The people that state the majority hated the film have no numbers to back that up whatsoever.

What about all the bins of clearance toys from the movie? What about the lonely aisles at target and walmart and toys r us?
Do those not count?
What excuse are you guys gonna use now? " kids dont buy toys" doesnt work because jurassic world toys are selling very well. Avengers toys sell very well.
Monster high sells very well. Barbie still sells very well.

Even the funko last jedi toys are on clearance for 3 dollars.... not even sellling for tge low price of 3 dollars... everywhere they sell toys, star wars is always marked down and rotting in clearance bins....

What about that then? How are u and khev gonna disregard the complete failure of the toy lines? Solo is failing just as bad.

If people loved star wars like you guys are saying, selling of the products and blu ray would be high..... like jurassic world...... right?

 

[Neal136]

I think some of the toy line's failure should be attributed to the fact that the figures suck now. I was a massive 3 3/4" collector before Hasbro went back to 5 POA figures. The prices have increased while the quality has decreased. I realize it's all relative because I'll gladly spend over $200 on a doll, but I just don't see the value in most of Hasbro's product any more.

 

[e30ernest]

If people loved star wars like you guys are saying, selling of the products and blu ray would be high..... like jurassic world...... right?

I don't think anyone ever said it was universally loved. I and many others are saying it's not universally hated. It's a polarizing film for sure, but it's nowhere near as universally hated as people claim here.

Industry consensus on toys is that The Last Jedi didn't really introduce that many new memorable characters other than the ones from the original installment. At least that's what they think. Hasbro also blames poor planning on their part:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...les-fall-in-2017-as-movie-tie-fatigue-sets-in
https://fortune.com/2018/03/28/hasbro-star-wars-toys/

So it could very well be children not liking the movie, or it could be children already having Reys, BB8s, Poes, Finns, Kylos and more from the previous film. Majority of people aren't collectors like us and do not need to buy different versions of characters they already have.

As for digital and disc sales, TLJ was polarizing. It is expected that it won't sell as well as TFA (which was also propelled heavily by being the first SW movie in years). Does it mean it's hated? No, since it still held well for a few weeks.

Again, none of these point to the movie being as heavily hated as many here suggest. All it shows is that the movie was less liked than TFA. It's polarizing yes, and I think the split is still closer to 50:50.

 

[crows]

I don't think anyone ever said it was universally loved. I and many others are saying it's not universally hated. It's a polarizing film for sure, but it's nowhere near as universally hated as people claim here.

Industry consensus on toys is that The Last Jedi didn't really introduce that many new memorable characters other than the ones from the original installment. At least that's what they think. Hasbro also blames poor planning on their part:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...les-fall-in-2017-as-movie-tie-fatigue-sets-in
https://fortune.com/2018/03/28/hasbro-star-wars-toys/

So it could very well be children not liking the movie, or it could be children already having Reys, BB8s, Poes, Finns, Kylos and more from the previous film. Majority of people aren't collectors like us and do not need to buy different versions of characters they already have.

As for digital and disc sales, TLJ was polarizing. It is expected that it won't sell as well as TFA (which was also propelled heavily by being the first SW movie in years). Does it mean it's hated? No, since it still held well for a few weeks.

Again, none of these point to the movie being as heavily hated as many here suggest. All it shows is that the movie was less liked than TFA. It's polarizing yes, and I think the split is still closer to 50:50.

If the split was 50:50 then why did solo flop so hard?
Star wars fatigue?
To close to infinity wars?
No one cares about solo?

It had nothing to do with the dislike for this movie right? This movie was not responsible for making people not wanna spend on star wars.

It all connects. The loss of almost a billion in box office. The loss in toys. The loss in blu ray. The loss in solo. The loss in merch. The probable loss of the fox deal.

This movie might cost kennedy her job dude....................
Come on. Wake up... things were fine with force awakens and rogue one...... people were happy. Sales were good. The franchise was ok

This ONE movie was like a domino effect that will cost disney billions in losses........the fox deal is a huge thing.....

Rian might cost kennedy her job. Rian might have ruined this franchise story wise. Rian ruined solo....

WAKE UP

 

[e30ernest]

If the split was 50:50 then why did solo flop so hard?
Star wars fatigue?
To close to infinity wars?
No one cares about solo?

It had nothing to do with the dislike for this movie right? This movie was not responsible for making people not wanna spend on star wars.

It all connects. The loss of almost a billion in box office. The loss in toys. The loss in blu ray. The loss in solo. The loss in merch. The probable loss of the fox deal.

This movie might cost kennedy her job dude....................
Come on. Wake up... things were fine with force awakens and rogue one...... people were happy. Sales were good. The franchise was ok

This ONE movie was like a domino effect that will cost disney billions in losses........the fox deal is a huge thing.....

Rian might cost kennedy her job. Rian might have ruined this franchise story wise. Rian ruined solo....

WAKE UP

Me personally, I fell in the "did not care" bracket. I was simply not interested enough to see it in a theater (I'll watch it on digital streaming when it comes out). I was faced with the choice between Infinity War, Deadpool 2, Jurassic World 2 and Solo. I chose to drop Solo because I was not interested enough to make time for it.

I did not care to watch Solo because it adds nothing to the current SW stories. I can watch it anytime I want, and it won't lessen any future installment of the sequel trilogy. I've seen a young Solo (OT) and I've seen an old Solo (ST). I know how he rises up to become a hero from being just another smuggler and I know how his life ends.

As for other people, I don't know... but even before TLJ, Solo was already getting a lot of negative press. From rumors of bad acting, to bad scripts causing the directors to be fired, at one point there were rumors that they even wanted to recast Solo.

As for Rian costing Kennedy her job, you have it the other way. Kennedy let Rian do what he did. Any failure TLJ causes is on Kennedy's head. If she was able to fire the directors of Solo over "creative differences", then she could have done the same to Rian. JJ Abrams is also to blame as he holds a role as a producer. Rian and Abrams did communicate with each other during the writing process of the trilogy. While Rian did write VIII, the script passed through both Kennedy and Abrams.

If Star Wars as a whole fails because of TLJ, then it's on those 3 people.

 

[crows]

Me personally, I fell in the "did not care" bracket. I was simply not interested enough to see it in a theater (I'll watch it on digital streaming when it comes out). I was faced with the choice between Infinity War, Deadpool 2, Jurassic World 2 and Solo. I chose to drop Solo because I was not interested enough to make time for it.

I did not care to watch Solo because it adds nothing to the current SW stories. I can watch it anytime I want, and it won't lessen any future installment of the sequel trilogy. I've seen a young Solo (OT) and I've seen an old Solo (ST). I know how he rises up to become a hero from being just another smuggler and I know how his life ends.

As for other people, I don't know... but even before TLJ, Solo was already getting a lot of negative press. From rumors of bad acting, to bad scripts causing the directors to be fired, at one point there were rumors that they even wanted to recast Solo.

As for Rian costing Kennedy her job, you have it the other way. Kennedy let Rian do what he did. Any failure TLJ causes is on Kennedy's head. If she was able to fire the directors of Solo over "creative differences", then she could have done the same to Rian. JJ Abrams is also to blame as he holds a role as a producer. Rian and Abrams did communicate with each other during the writing process of the trilogy. While Rian did write VIII, the script passed through both Kennedy and Abrams.

If Star Wars as a whole fails because of TLJ, then it's on those 3 people.

Im just saying the rejection of the last jedi can be seen and felt on multiple places. Different layers.
It is not just " people watched it in theaters therefore they like it duuuhhhhh" it made a billion dollars duuhhh

The everlasting effects of the last jedi are a domino effect that is still affecting other aspects of star wars and disney.
Even mark haamill hated it.... come on dudes. This movie will affect the brand for a long time....... will affect sales, will affect future deals...come on...

You can love this movie as much as you want, it doesnt change the ill effects of the movie as a whole

 

[Khev]

I don't mind when people express their negative opinion of TLJ. I understand. I even recognize that many criticisms are perfectly valid. But, when people here start projecting their opinion as an objective statement of truth about the artistic failure of TLJ as a film, I can't help but laugh.

Yes, for whatever reason it's very important to the most vocal group of bashers to state their opinions as facts and to dismiss facts (critical reviews, box office, etc.) as opinions, lol. Calling them out on such silliness isn't going to make them own up to what they're doing so I find it best to simply not address them directly at all anymore.

Obviously that's not to say that criticisms against TLJ (or even open dislike/hate) aren't true or valid for any given person but the lengths that some bashers will go to distort reality in an attempt to prove that their singular opinions are objective and "correct" is pretty mind boggling.

 

[Popnfresh98]

Yes, I suppose it's "spin" to point out TLJ never reached #1 on iTunes DTO (which controls between 1/3 and 1/2 of all that streaming of new releases) or on the core rentals charts... over its first 2-3 weeks of release.

These are the actual numbers... not something residing inside someone's subjective take on the world.

But yes, we'll attribute the fact that TLJ is running at 50% of the Blu-Ray and DVD sales of TFA (Blu: $109m vs $56m by week 4, DVD: $16.8m vs $8m by week 3) to those legions of TLJ fans abandoning disc media to rush to... oh, that's right - streaming services, iTunes being the biggest by far. Back to the charts above...

Don't tell me... its BOTS that are creating the sales figures? C'mon, who's spinning here?

I love the smell of cold, hard facts in the morning.

 

[crows]

Yes, for whatever reason it's very important to the most vocal group of bashers to state their opinions as facts and to dismiss facts (critical reviews, box office, etc.) as opinions, lol. Calling them out on such silliness isn't going to make them own up to what they're doing so I find it best to simply not address them directly at all anymore.

Obviously that's not to say that criticisms against TLJ (or even open dislike/hate) aren't true or valid for any given person but the lengths that some bashers will go to distort reality in an attempt to prove that their singular opinions are objective and "correct" is pretty mind boggling.

You equally ignorethe damage this movie did to the franchise.
You use the box office to indicate that everything is fine in the company. You and jye kept saying solo would do like rogue one.
You do exactly the same lol.
Literally lol. Kennedy is about to get fired and u guys still act like everything is ok and perfect.
You guys are the physical representation of this

 

[Khev]

You equally ignorethe damage this movie did to the franchise.
You use the box office to indicate that everything is fine in the company. You and jye kept saying solo would do like rogue one.
You do exactly the same lol.
Literally lol. Kennedy is about to get fired and u guys still act like everything is ok and perfect.
You guys are the physical representation of this

You're an okay kid crows but you post a lot of nonsense. You haven't accurately characterized a single thing I've said on the subject.

 

[crows]

You're an okay kid crows but you post a lot of nonsense. You haven't accurately characterized a single thing I've said on the subject.

I know you said this movie is not perfect and has its flaws but you like it and enjoy it a lot
But You guys you and jye keep denying the bigger problems lol.

 

[xipotec]

Solo is a bit of a mystery, kinda like BR2049.

Both were good films but very poor showings..

I think the IW rush and Star Wars fatigue is to blame a bit for Solo. Also I have said this before, the time they decided to release it was weak. Memorial day weekend is not what it once was for film release. There is a great article somewhere I read about quite a few films over the past few years that should have done better, but were released too early in the summer.

Most average folks just don’t goto the movies 6 times a summer (much less see a film 6 times in a theater like some of the freaks do.)

So seeing IW because it was the first big film , with a continuation story for most people , then they would want to save some cash before blowing another 60 on a film (bad timing for Solo) and alot of people would be waiting for Incredibles 2 , or maybe something else.

Solo was just not a MUsT SEE film....no real story progression for the character as we know where it ends? DeadPool at least had a story where the audience had no idea what would happen....even that film did alot less then I expected.

Maybe the prequel is dying also....


Sent from the inside of a giant slug in outer space.....

 

[Khev]

Solo is a bit of a mystery, kinda like BR2049.

Both were good films but very poor showings..

I think the IW rush and Star Wars fatigue is to blame a bit for Solo. Also I have said this before, the time they decided to release it was weak. Memorial day weekend is not what it once was for film release. There is a great article somewhere I read about quite a few films over the past few years that should have done better, but were released too early in the summer.

Most average folks just don’t goto the movies 6 times a summer (much less see a film 6 times in a theater like some of the freaks do.)

So seeing IW because it was the first big film , with a continuation story for most people , then they would want to save some cash before blowing another 60 on a film (bad timing for Solo) and alot of people would be waiting for Incredibles 2 , or maybe something else.

Solo was just not a MUsT SEE film....no real story progression for the character as we know where it ends? DeadPool at least had a story where the audience had no idea what would happen....even that film did alot less then I expected.

Maybe the prequel is dying also....


Sent from the inside of a giant slug in outer space.....

Yep there are so many aspects that are unique to Solo's release it's impossible to pinpoint the major cause for it's failure at the box office. New release date, a couple months of marketing instead of a year, a previous SW movie that just left theaters two months ago, the first main OT cast member to be recast, fans angry at Rian Johnson...there's just no way to know for sure.

Even taking all SW-specific elements out of the equation it could have simply been the "Fury Road/BR 2049 effect." Because this now makes three separate occurrences that a recent sequel/prequel to a beloved 70's/80's property featured a new younger lead and bombed despite being a good to great film.

 

[ironwez20]

I don't mind when people express their negative opinion of TLJ. I understand. I even recognize that many criticisms are perfectly valid. But, when people here start projecting their opinion as an objective statement of truth about the artistic failure of TLJ as a film, I can't help but laugh.

If you want to insist that TLJ is an objectively terrible movie (as someone earlier objected to calling it "well-made"), then you have to rationalize that every single professional film critic who praised the film is either a shill for Disney, or an *****. All of them! Or, if you admit that such a premise is unlikely, you'd have to argue that your opinion has more merit than someone who has made a living of reviewing films and has seen hundreds (perhaps thousands) of films through a professional prism. That's a really impressive level of conceit!

To suggest that TLJ is an objectively terrible movie, you have to believe that when compared to other contemporary films within the same genre, TLJ is below average in cinematography, acting, dialogue, visual effects, musical score, etc. Below average in those categories? Seriously? Worse than the prequels? Really!? How about some context, shall we?

In a franchise that included a film where the long-anticipated (nearly 20 years) on-screen revelation of how Anakin fell to the dark side and became Vader gave us a two-minute scene to explain it all, TLJ is somehow the worst SW movie? I'm not exaggerating here: Anakin turned to the dark side TWO MINUTES (maybe even fewer) after insisting to Mace Windu that killing Palpatine would violate the Jedi way (and not just to spare him - having just minutes earlier ratted out Palpatine as the Sith master). From faithful Jedi to servant of evil, and you might miss it if you blink. TWO MINUTES it took for Anakin to be on bended knee pledging his loyalty to serve the master of evil. And why? Because he wanted to keep his love interest from dying. Yes, the same love interest he decided to choke (perhaps to death - while she carried his twins) half an hour or so later. TLJ is a worse story and film than that!? Worse acting? Worse dialogue? Worse effects? Come on!

Please go back and get a whiff of stuff in ROTS like the acting when Anakin tells Mace that Palps is the Sith behind the scenes. Worse acting than those two? More cringe-worthy than, "NNNNOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!?" More poorly done than the explanation of Anakin's turn (kind of a big deal to the whole saga)? Seriously?

Bro don’t even go there. Rots just kills TLJ . I’m not even gonna go into it.

Luke goes from faithful Jedi to angry hobbit and it’s all cause of his nephew? Lol dude saved his father. Come on guys. Rey’s acting is not even that good. Always has this dumb founded glare

 

[crows]

Solo is a bit of a mystery, kinda like BR2049.

Both were good films but very poor showings..

I think the IW rush and Star Wars fatigue is to blame a bit for Solo. Also I have said this before, the time they decided to release it was weak. Memorial day weekend is not what it once was for film release. There is a great article somewhere I read about quite a few films over the past few years that should have done better, but were released too early in the summer.

Most average folks just don’t goto the movies 6 times a summer (much less see a film 6 times in a theater like some of the freaks do.)

So seeing IW because it was the first big film , with a continuation story for most people , then they would want to save some cash before blowing another 60 on a film (bad timing for Solo) and alot of people would be waiting for Incredibles 2 , or maybe something else.

Solo was just not a MUsT SEE film....no real story progression for the character as we know where it ends? DeadPool at least had a story where the audience had no idea what would happen....even that film did alot less then I expected.

Maybe the prequel is dying also....


Sent from the inside of a giant slug in outer space.....

Funby how sequel fatigue or memorial day didnt affect marvel or pirates of the Caribbean.... interesting. Those did not suffer from that... interesting to see how those things only affected solo

Wow

 

[ajp4mgs]

Bro don’t even go there. Rots just kills TLJ . I’m not even gonna go into it.

Luke goes from faithful Jedi to angry hobbit and it’s all cause of his nephew? Lol dude saved his father. Come on guys. Rey’s acting is not even that good. Always has this dumb founded glare

No, please, go into it. Do me that favor so that I can be corrected and see things more properly. Tell me how a story that takes the fall of Anakin Skywalker (one of the most important plot points in the saga), and reduces it to that scene with Mace and Palpatine by the window, is better than how Luke's exile played out.

Remember, Anakin goes from: "Don't kill him, Mace! It's not the Jedi way." to asking himself, "What have I done!?" seconds later. And then after another minute, he's on his knee pledging loyalty to the Dark Side. Jedi to Sith . . . two minutes. That's better writing? That's better plot and character development?

And remember why Anakin fell: to keep Padme from dying. Then he sees Kenobi in the ship and chokes her until she collapses. The woman he gave up his soul and morality to save . . . he puts on the floor as she's carrying his children. That makes more sense than Luke coming out of the rubble that Kylo left behind and deciding to exile himself because he's seeing the Vader tragedy playing itself out again? And because he's partly to blame? And because he has rationalized that the Jedi way hasn't helped the problem? And TLJ actually takes the time to explain that; to offer the justification for Luke exiling himself because he feels it's the best and right thing to do. Even if he was wrong.

And do you think the acting in ROTS is better? Seriously? Christensen, Jackson, and Portman performances were better than any of the acting jobs in TLJ? The visuals are better? The cinematography is better?

I respect everybody's opinion, so please educate me. For all I know, you're like Kenobi here: you've got "the higher ground." So slice me apart.

 

[ironwez20]

No, please, go into it. Do me that favor so that I can be corrected and see things more properly. Tell me how a story that takes the fall of Anakin Skywalker (one of the most important plot points in the saga), and reduces it to that scene with Mace and Palpatine by the window, is better than how Luke's exile played out.

Remember, Anakin goes from: "Don't kill him, Mace! It's not the Jedi way." to asking himself, "What have I done!?" seconds later. And then after another minute, he's on his knee pledging loyalty to the Dark Side. Jedi to Sith . . . two minutes. That's better writing? That's better plot and character development?

And remember why Anakin fell: to keep Padme from dying. Then he sees Kenobi in the ship and chokes her until she collapses. The woman he gave up his soul and morality to save . . . he puts on the floor as she's carrying his children. That makes more sense than Luke coming out of the rubble that Kylo left behind and deciding to exile himself because he's seeing the Vader tragedy playing itself out again? And because he's partly to blame? And because he has rationalized that the Jedi way hasn't helped the problem? And TLJ actually takes the time to explain that; to offer the justification for Luke exiling himself because he feels it's the best and right thing to do. Even if he was wrong.

And do you think the acting in ROTS is better? Seriously? Christensen, Jackson, and Portman performances were better than any of the acting jobs in TLJ? The visuals are better? The cinematography is better?

I respect everybody's opinion, so please educate me. For all I know, you're like Kenobi here: you've got "the higher ground." So slice me apart.

Nah I would but it’d be a long stupid thesis on Star Wars and it’ll be a bunch of back and forth crap and no one will agree with each other. Waste of time. Don’t feel like it. Just another long argument in a Star Wars thread. Don’t worry you’ll get the next one. Honestly I don’t even know why I’m here lol. I spent to much time in this thread then needed.

 

[FlyAndFight]

Hi there guys.
This question is addressed to those of you that have followed this thread for a long time, at least since the film went from pre-release to release.
According to your guys that are the most important issues/fixes and tips/tricks surrounding this particular film? Plot OK? Actors fit OK? Any way to optimize its looks beyond the usual stuff? (alcohol treatment, etc).

Thanks people!!

Regards,
F.