The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power | Amazon Prime Video - September 2, 2022

[Lejuan]

I keep checking here for a reason to watch this, and I can't find any.

I watched the first three or four episodes of the first season and wondered how they could make Middle Earth so boring. After a few scenes of episode one of season 2 it was more of the same.

Utterly soul-less television. The writing, the characters, the CG… boring as batsh**

 

[Landry]

All the hate I see for this show... Is it perfect? No. But can someone please point me in the direction of a better live action TV show about a god-being deceiving a vain elven smith into forging magical trinkets of destruction while a dwarven kingdom mines it's way to doom? No? Okay then.

 

[Landry]

WHY in the NAME OF ERU ILUVATAR would Tom Bombadil know more about the Flame Imperishable than Olorin of the Maia.
Why would some wild pagan nature-deity know more about God than one of his own angels....

God I hate this show so much

Because the maiar come to Middle Earth without full memory of where they came from.

"For it is said indeed that being embodied the Istari had need to learn much anew by slow experience and though they knew whence they came the memory of the Blessed Realm was to them a vision from afar off, for which (so long as they remained true to their mission) they yearned exceedingly."

 

[lordnastrond]

Because the maiar come to Middle Earth without full memory of where they came from.

"For it is said indeed that being embodied the Istari had need to learn much anew by slow experience and though they knew whence they came the memory of the Blessed Realm was to them a vision from afar off, for which (so long as they remained true to their mission) they yearned exceedingly."

1. The Istari came via ship (though not all together) to the Grey Havens where they met Cirdan, when they arrived they informed him of their divine mission to counter Sauron (and here Cirdan secretly gave Gandalf Narya in the belief that he, and not Saruman, was the wisest of the order) and so they clearly did not arrive with amnesia as to who they were, what their purpose was and where they came from and on whose behalf.

2. Yes they had to learn stuff anew, but you are highlighting the wrong section of the quote. They didn't need to learn anew their magic or connection to Iluvatar or The Utmost West. What they had to learn anew was the experiences of being truly incarnated or "embodied" in a physical form with wants, needs, emotions they ad angelic beings were not used to as made clear with this other section of the Unfinished Tales chapter on the Istari you are quoting:
"For they must be mighty, peers of Sauron, but must forgo might, and clothe themselves in flesh so as to treat on equality and win the trust of Elves and Men. But this would imperil them, dimming their wisdom and knowledge, and confusing them with fears, cares, and weariness coming from the flesh."

3. Yes their memories of Valinor were dimmed, but this was done to prevent their pangs of homesickness for the divine perfection of Valinor to distract them from their mission in ME, made clear by the above quote you use "....though they knew whence they came the memory of the Blessed Realm was to them a vision from afar off, for which (so long as they remained true to their mission) they yearned exceedingly. Thus by enduring of free will the pangs of exile and the deceits of Sauron they might redress the evils of that time." This quote clearly shows, through describing the "exceeding" nature of their "yearning" for home, with yearning already being a word with strong emotional emphasis, the strength of the memory of Valinor on these beings even as dimmed as it is, with the further compounding language describing the "pangs" of "exile" supporting this. The suggestion being that unless dimmed and made hazy the memory of Valinor would distract the Istari from their important mission. What is clear is that the memory is merely dimmed, not removed, as that would also be detrimental to their ability to counter Sauron.

4. Tom Bombadil, a merry soul he may be, and deeply ancient. But he is not so far as we can tell angelic in nature nor does he come from Valinor. Nor is he listed as one of the few who came to know the true nature and origin of the Istari (that list being the White Council - which Bombadil was not ever part of) So there would be no way for him to teach Gandalf the ways of the Ainur or his status as a Servant of The Secret Fire/Iluvatar. Not to mention that even if Tom was in such a position it would be completely against his character to actually do this.

Apologies for the long ass post
Let my inner literature lecturer loose for a second there!

 

[Landry]

1. The Istari came via ship (though not all together) to the Grey Havens where they met Cirdan, when they arrived they informed him of their divine mission to counter Sauron (and here Cirdan secretly gave Gandalf Narya in the belief that he, and not Saruman, was the wisest of the order) and so they clearly did not arrive with amnesia as to who they were, what their purpose was and where they came from and on whose behalf.

2. Yes they had to learn stuff anew, but you are highlighting the wrong section of the quote. They didn't need to learn anew their magic or connection to Iluvatar or The Utmost West. What they had to learn anew was the experiences of being truly incarnated or "embodied" in a physical form with wants, needs, emotions they ad angelic beings were not used to as made clear with this other section of the Unfinished Tales chapter on the Istari you are quoting:
"For they must be mighty, peers of Sauron, but must forgo might, and clothe themselves in flesh so as to treat on equality and win the trust of Elves and Men. But this would imperil them, dimming their wisdom and knowledge, and confusing them with fears, cares, and weariness coming from the flesh."

3. Yes their memories of Valinor were dimmed, but this was done to prevent their pangs of homesickness for the divine perfection of Valinor to distract them from their mission in ME, made clear by the above quote you use "....though they knew whence they came the memory of the Blessed Realm was to them a vision from afar off, for which (so long as they remained true to their mission) they yearned exceedingly. Thus by enduring of free will the pangs of exile and the deceits of Sauron they might redress the evils of that time." This quote clearly shows, through describing the "exceeding" nature of their "yearning" for home, with yearning already being a word with strong emotional emphasis, the strength of the memory of Valinor on these beings even as dimmed as it is, with the further compounding language describing the "pangs" of "exile" supporting this. The suggestion being that unless dimmed and made hazy the memory of Valinor would distract the Istari from their important mission. What is clear is that the memory is merely dimmed, not removed, as that would also be detrimental to their ability to counter Sauron.

4. Tom Bombadil, a merry soul he may be, and deeply ancient. But he is not so far as we can tell angelic in nature nor does he come from Valinor. Nor is he listed as one of the few who came to know the true nature and origin of the Istari (that list being the White Council - which Bombadil was not ever part of) So there would be no way for him to teach Gandalf the ways of the Ainur or his status as a Servant of The Secret Fire/Iluvatar. Not to mention that even if Tom was in such a position it would be completely against his character to actually do this.

Apologies for the long ass post
Let my inner literature lecturer loose for a second there!

It's all interpretations. Just as your interpretation of Bombadil - his origins and nature are as intentionally undefined as are Ungoliant's. You cannot definitively say what Bombadil should or could know any more than the showmakers can.

It doesn't even matter - the books remains the books. This is a TV show. If you're going to pick at problems, pick a large one like the existence of Barrow Wights in the Second Age. But even that doesn't matter. It's just a show, and the only one of it's nature. Certainly not perfect, but I'll take it over the many decades of absolutely zero Tolkien lore inspired TV shows that preceded it.

 

[MeatHookGekko]

I watched the first three or four episodes of the first season and wondered how they could make Middle Earth so boring. After a few scenes of episode one of season 2 it was more of the same.

Utterly soul-less television. The writing, the characters, the CG… boring as batsh**

ROP could use some major battle sequences. Hundreds of dwarves killing tons of orcs. How this show could spend this much money and give no spectacle at all is kind of baffling.

 

[Alatar]

Just restating it, but I’m very okay with the writers taking some creative liberties or artistic license. I’m also not expecting Tolkien level quality to the writer’s efforts.

If I recall correctly Amazon’s deal with the Tolkien estate was that 1) the show must adhere with Tolkien’s canon, and 2) where some freedom exists to create new content they may as long do so just so long as it is consistent with what Tolkien established in his Legendarium.

So for example since Tolkien wrote in his 1958 letter the revision about the blue wizards actually arriving in the Second Age versus the Third, the writers are free to tell that story, including their travels and adventures in the East and South. To tell the tale of how they thwarted Sauron’s efforts to seduce the free peoples of Rhun and Harad to get them under his banner. And perhaps also including how it was said that they (or perhaps at least one of them) may have fallen into creating cults of dark magic in the East and forgot their mission, as Tolkien had first written about them arriving in the Third Age.

I’m hoping that the writers have combined the two narratives that Tolkien wrote about them. Alatar arrived first. He went to the East, got seduced by Sauron via his chief acolyte who has him using a palantir with Sauron at the other end cloaked in a different identity, shapeshifter and deceiver that he is. Pallando his Maiar friend was sent by Illuvatar to try to bring him back to his senses. But together they will both have to regain memory of their true mission and to identify and reject Sauron and his trickery.

Pallando’s relationship to Alatar would then be somewhat reminiscent of Sam’s relationship to Frodo.

 

[chrisstbh]

Just restating it, but I’m very okay with the writers taking some creative liberties or artistic license. I’m also not expecting Tolkien level quality to the writer’s efforts.

If I recall correctly Amazon’s deal with the Tolkien estate was that 1) the show must adhere with Tolkien’s canon, and 2) where some freedom exists to create new content they may as long do so just so long as it is consistent with what Tolkien established in his Legendarium.

So for example since Tolkien wrote in his 1958 letter the revision about the blue wizards actually arriving in the Second Age versus the Third, the writers are free to tell that story, including their travels and adventures in the East and South. To tell the tale of how they thwarted Sauron’s efforts to seduce the free peoples of Rhun and Harad to get them under his banner. And perhaps also including how it was said that they (or perhaps at least one of them) may have fallen into creating cults of dark magic in the East and forgot their mission, as Tolkien had first written about them arriving in the Third Age.

I’m hoping that the writers have combined the two narratives that Tolkien wrote about them. Alatar arrived first. He went to the East, got seduced by Sauron via his chief acolyte who has him using a palantir with Sauron at the other end cloaked in a different identity, shapeshifter and deceiver that he is. Pallando his Maiar friend was sent by Illuvatar to try to bring him back to his senses. But together they will both have to regain memory of their true mission and to identify and reject Sauron and his trickery.

Pallando’s relationship to Alatar would then be somewhat reminiscent of Sam’s relationship to Frodo.

Indeed. At the end of that day it's an adaptation, even Peter Jacksons movies were not strictly adherent to the books or lore. Christopher Tolkien hates those movies yet fans widely regard it as one of, if not, the best movie trilogies of all time.

It's also crazy to me that anyone could enjoy The Hobbit trilogy over this show because that strays even further than the LOTR trilogy.

I'm not a huge Tolkien nerd, my love is for the 3 movies and that's what I grew up with. I don't find this show to be utterly offensive. I did find the first season to be very lacking and overall a waste of time, but this season has been a huge improvement imo.

AFAIK they're taking a lot of things that were just one or two sentences in the lore and expanding them into a TV show.

 

[Sassafras]

Indeed. At the end of that day it's an adaptation, even Peter Jacksons movies were not strictly adherent to the books or lore. Christopher Tolkien hates those movies yet fans widely regard it as one of, if not, the best movie trilogies of all time.

It's also crazy to me that anyone could enjoy The Hobbit trilogy over this show because that strays even further than the LOTR trilogy.

I'm not a huge Tolkien nerd, my love is for the 3 movies and that's what I grew up with. I don't find this show to be utterly offensive. I did find the first season to be very lacking and overall a waste of time, but this season has been a huge improvement imo.

AFAIK they're taking a lot of things that were just one or two sentences in the lore and expanding them into a TV show.

Not being an expert but -
Hobbit movies had great cast, performances, charisma, WETA's design work, and for me anyway really enjoyed the depictions of Mirkwood, Laketown, Eregor, Dol Guldur, Gundabad, Beorn's farm.

There's stuff I didn't like, but plenty there to seize the imagination. Like the interaction between Galadriel and Gandalf in Rivendell is really beautiful, whether it was in the book or not.

WETA is involved in this show, but dunno, like I should have been excited about "new elves" like Arondir; I always like well done fleshing out of worlds/characters I hadn't seen before (Outer Rim/Mandalorian) but the elves are dull. They don't look like elves (unlike PJ who carefully selected body/face types and said in an article that only about 10% - I think it was - people in the world could be an elf - he was being funny but he did take care casting). The script is often - not interesting. Other stuff feels forced/memba berries.

Both with the Hobbit and LOTR there are bridge scenes that make it clear there's journeys and time passing. Instead of elves teleporting to visit the dwarves in ROP.

Haven't watched S2 - when I get there, I hope it's better. PJ's work casts a long shadow, and his team can write dialogue that works. IMO there's been problems with this show being "too superficial" for lack of a better way to put it. And things that make no sense at all, like Celebrimbor not knowing about alloys WTF..

 

[MeatHookGekko]

All the hate I see for this show... Is it perfect? No. But can someone please point me in the direction of a better live action TV show about a god-being deceiving a vain elven smith into forging magical trinkets of destruction while a dwarven kingdom mines it's way to doom? No? Okay then.

 

[Landry]

This is an incorrect use of the false dilemma fallacy.

 

[Alatar]

Episode 7 was kind of a mixed bag for me. Really strong performances by the actors playing Sauron/Annatar, Celibrimbor, and Elrond. In particular Charlie Vickers as Sauron is doing a great job. The battle itself was a little underwhelming, though.

 

[chrisstbh]

Episode 7 was kind of a mixed bag for me. Really strong performances by the actors playing Sauron/Annatar, Celibrimbor, and Elrond. In particular Charlie Vickers as Sauron is doing a great job.

The actor for Celebrimbor really did a great job showing his broken mental state.

But yeah Charlie Vickers as Sauron kills it every time.

The battle itself was a little underwhelming, though.

I enjoyed it. Reminded me of Helm’s Deep except with the twist that the reinforcements don’t show up.

Also Gil Galad was a badass

 

[r0cket147]

Episode 7 was kind of a mixed bag for me. Really strong performances by the actors playing Sauron/Annatar, Celibrimbor, and Elrond. In particular Charlie Vickers as Sauron is doing a great job. The battle itself was a little underwhelming, though.

Pretty much how I feel.

I read a post on Threads where some user praised that battle scene of one of the best he has seen. My first thought was „Did watch the same show?“.

For me it was a pretty underwhelming and partly clumsy battle scene. It already began when Adar showed his army to Galadriel im episode 6. They were aiming for a reveal like in the Two Towers but Adars army looked really pathetic, a few campfires and a couple of Orcs.

The whole battle itself seemed really patchworked like a lot of guys where in charge drafting that scene and in the end they used a bit of everything. That battle carried no emotions. For example, they introduced that one elve and a couple of minutes later she dies in a slow motion hero scene to make it real shocking for the audience. I couldn’t care less. I cared more for the elves who fell in Helms Deep.

But to be honest the whole portrayal of the elves is a sad experience in this show. For me they are lacking all the elegance and finesse that they have in the trilogy. I mean how they panic and run around like a flock of hens when the city gets attacked. That’s just not how I picture the elves.

Kind of glad that this show might come to an end. I liked quite a few moments, but overall after two seasons it has not delivered up to the expectations. I am sad for the Sauron part of the story, because I think he really delivered and I would like to see how he shapes the character even more.

 

[Alatar]

I remember reading when this series was still in development that Jeff Bezos is a Tolkien nerd and making this series was a dream of his. He’s rich as Croesus. It’s running on a platform that he owns. He has money to burn. I don’t think he cares what the ratings are. I expect this show to continue.

 

[chrisstbh]

I remember reading when this series was still in development that Jeff Bezos is a Tolkien nerd and making this series was a dream of his. He’s rich as Croesus. It’s running on a platform that he owns. He has money to burn. I don’t think he cares what the ratings are. I expect this show to continue.

Yes Bezos is personally invested in this show. And Amazon already paid a huge sum to the Tolkein estate. They paid 250mil just for the rights.

I don't see it getting cancelled, they already pre-committed to 5 seasons.

I know hardcore Tolkein nerds are never going to accept the show but I do think it's found its footing now - or is at least well on the way to doing so. When the A plot (Sauron focused stuff) is in full swing I think it's really good. I just need them to hurry up and progress The Stranger stuff as they keep dragging that on and on.

I think it has potential if they just tighten things up, much like The Clone Wars. If that got cancelled just because it had a rough start then we would have missed out big time.

 

[Alatar]

Pretty much how I feel.

I read a post on Threads where some user praised that battle scene of one of the best he has seen. My first thought was „Did watch the same show?“.

For me it was a pretty underwhelming and partly clumsy battle scene. It already began when Adar showed his army to Galadriel im episode 6. They were aiming for a reveal like in the Two Towers but Adars army looked really pathetic, a few campfires and a couple of Orcs.

The whole battle itself seemed really patchworked like a lot of guys where in charge drafting that scene and in the end they used a bit of everything. That battle carried no emotions. For example, they introduced that one elve and a couple of minutes later she dies in a slow motion hero scene to make it real shocking for the audience. I couldn’t care less. I cared more for the elves who fell in Helms Deep.

But to be honest the whole portrayal of the elves is a sad experience in this show. For me they are lacking all the elegance and finesse that they have in the trilogy. I mean how they panic and run around like a flock of hens when the city gets attacked. That’s just not how I picture the elves.

Kind of glad that this show might come to an end. I liked quite a few moments, but overall after two seasons it has not delivered up to the expectations. I am sad for the Sauron part of the story, because I think he really delivered and I would like to see how he shapes the character even more.

At certain points I was very aware that it was a television production, i.e., these are actors dressed up like orcs and elves. The orcs didn’t feel as menacing as Jackson’s were, and the elves not as graceful and powerful as Jackson’s. The orcs are supposed to be Uruks, right?

But on the plus side, the battle captured what I would presume would be the chaos of an actual military medieval (that being the inspiration) battlefield on muddy ground. The compressed time scale for the damming of the river and the fact that it would probably be completely untraversable muck I was able to look past. And the CGI for the trebuchet assault on Eregion was actually pretty well done.