1/6 QORANGE QOTOYS QOM-1033 American Civil War 4th Texas Regiment at Chickamauga (1863)

[Asta]

https://history.stackexchange.com/q...e-a-plain-oval-cs-buckle-during-the-civil-war

I believe the CS Oval buckles existed, but the number found may be extremely low, as they were not actual issued gear as with the Union buckles.

Captioned:

Several of the buckles in the Virginia Historical Society's Maryland-Steuart Collection, Richmond, VA that I used to cast my master patterns.

It seems like they were unofficial and produced more locally and roughly than the standard issue 'US' plates.


Their rarity is indicated by the price of these:

https://www.armyoftennesseerelics.com/?page_id=11

CSBP 6. Confederate Enlisted Man’s Accoutrement Belt.​

Here is a stamped brass “Rope Border” CS oval belt plate on the original leather belt it was issued with. Almost all Confederate belts are relatively recent marriages, so this belt is a rare survivor. These were issued in quantity to Western Theater troops and are a relatively faithful copy of the US M-1839 oval US belt plate. Condition is superb. Face of buckle was cleaned at some point in the past. Note soldier’s initials “HS” carved into the leather.

$7500.00

CSBP 13. Confederate Enlisted Man’s Belt Plate.​

Another top of the line Confederate belt buckle. This stamped brass ‘Rope Border” CS oval is in mint condition with an untouched patina. Ex. Gary Bisacky collection. See page 82, Plate # 140 in Steve Mullinax’s “Confederate Belt Buckles and Plates” reference book for more details on this variant.

$6500.00

CSBP 19. Confederate Enlisted Man’s Belt Plate.​

Very rare solid cast brass CS “regulation” oval in very good condition with all attachment hooks intact. Found long ago near Vicksburg MS. See page 85, Plate #146 in Steve Mullinax’s “Confederate Belt Buckles and Plates” reference book for more information on this plate.

 

[karamazov80]

Gimme figures of these guys, please.

 

[lieutenant dan]

I've gone through that book and the results were inconclusive.

If looking for a typical appearance for any particular state, there are various things that discount all of them, such as the design of the buttons, the number of buttons, the colour of the jacket or trousers, the letters or design on the belt and cartridge box plates.

One distinct thing about the figure is the 'CS' buckle and box plate. Narrowing down the states that issued those would help.

Texas issued belt plates (but no cartridge box plates) with the five pointed star on them. Texas buttons also bore a star with the word 'TEXAS' around its points.

So it comes back to being an atypical soldier, but one from a state where the 'CS' plates and 'I' Infantry buttons were issued.

From what I have found online, the South never made a CS box plate. There is only one known box plate pattern of general service, but it is a cast CSA plate. These are known to have been cast in North Carolina and are very early war. There was a rope border CS belt plate, but it was extremely rare. There are examples of State pattern box plates, but again these appear to be early war.
The only examples of kepi insignia for the Texas regiments that I can find, are single stars rather than the regiment number in a red diamond.
As you have found, the oval CS plates were used, but determining by which regiments is tricky.
Texas star buttons and buckles were probably issued when the regiments were first raised, but as uniforms were replaced, pattern would then vary depending on the nearest resupply depot.

 

[Asta]

From what I have found online, the South never made a CS box plate. There is only one known box plate pattern of general service, but it is a cast CSA plate. These are known to have been cast in North Carolina and are very early war. There was a rope border CS belt plate, but it was extremely rare. There are examples of State pattern box plates, but again these appear to be early war.
The only examples of kepi insignia for the Texas regiments that I can find, are single stars rather than the regiment number in a red diamond.
As you have found, the oval CS plates were used, but determining by which regiments is tricky.
Texas star buttons and buckles were probably issued when the regiments were first raised, but as uniforms were replaced, pattern would then vary depending on the nearest resupply depot.

I've gone round in circles with this figure, looking through various books, and can't find any information or photo that could identify it as any particular state.

 

[lieutenant dan]

I've gone round in circles with this figure, looking through various books, and can't find any information or photo that could identify it as any particular state.

Yes, it's easier to identify what it isn't, i.e. 4th Texas Regiment at Chickamagua.

On the plus side, the uniform pieces and equipment look well made.

 

[Asta]

Yes, it's easier to identify what it isn't, i.e. 4th Texas Regiment at Chickamagua.

On the plus side, the uniform pieces and equipment look well made.

I've been coming at it from another angle, based on the shell jacket.

This looks like a great resource for jacket designs and the depots they came from:

https://www.military-historians.org/company/journal/confederate/confederate-1.htm
https://www.military-historians.org/company/journal/confederate/confederate-2.htm
https://www.military-historians.org/company/journal/confederate/confederate-3.htm
There's no exact match for the seven button Qorange, but the Columbus Depot Type I is similar, and said to be also know to have either five or seven buttons.

These jackets are made of a butternut colored wool jean, probably originally gray wool on an unbleached cotton warp. They have medium blue wool kersey or wool flannel collars, and straight cuffs made of the same material. Linings are made of the standard cotton osnaburg. Most have a six button front, although one has five and one has seven. What appears to be the earliergroup has pockets on the inside only, while the latter group has one exterior pocket.

However, the cuffs are straight rather than pointed.


A jacket I saw yesterday that looked like Qorange's was from the Houston Depot. It's a replica of a "winter" Houston:

https://m.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.1601618656719987.1073741844.1447800168768504&type=3

I'm presuming it's an accurate replica as it's not easy trying to find authentic examples.

Though I did find this extremely useful text:

https://adolphusconfederateuniforms.com/uploads/3/4/1/2/34124152/houston_uniforms.pdf
The "winter" monicker came from Captain Wharton, Chief Quartermaster for the District of Texas, who began operating a quartermaster depot in Houston early in 1862. In the Autumn of that year he began tailoring in his own depot because he felt that contracting was expensive.

Wharton described the jacket as single breasted with seven buttons, made of double width, coarse cadet grey cloth. The jacket facings, when added, were of imported woollen cloth, with the colour according to service. Sky blue cloth was usually meant when Wharton referred to blue. The jacket was cut so as to come below the tops of the hips, similar to those of the Richmond Depot. (To prevent the belt from slipping below the bottom of the jacket).

Wharton used a variety of buttons for his jackets, both imported and locally made. Relic finds on the Upper Texas Coast, where the Houston jacket was known to have been issued, show evidence of "C", "A" and "I" styles, and two varieties of star buttons with "CS" centres. Various other buttons were found in the region including superior quality "CSA"s.

Wharton also made the trousers and cap to complete the uniform.

The cap was described as follows: a coarse, cadet grey cloth body with a narrow yellow, red or blue band of cloth or flannel to indicate the branch of service. Plain leather visors from his shoe shop were added, preferably "glaized". A glazed chin strap, secured by two small lettered buttons was also required by Wharton, but he leaves no record of having actually added them.

Clothing rolls show that cadet grey jackets were being issued in Texas from late 1862 to mid 1863.

Wharton's reports show clothing issued from the Houston Depot from 1st January 1863 to 30th January 1864, and included issues to Arkansas, Louisiana and the Indian Nations.

He continued to issue cadet grey uniforms, as he had received 33,000 yards of cadet cloth and kersey from the Rio Grande between 3rd November 1863 and 29th February 1864.

Houston uniforms were issued to almost every Confederate unit stationed in Texas in 1863. Most of these regiments went to Louisiana, Arkansas and the Indian Nations in early 1864, thus clothed.



The pages from that book turned out to be an excellent resource. Qorange's shell jacket and kepi match the Houston Depot pattern, which appears to have remained unchanged at least until 1864.

Furthermore, beyond identifying the figure as a likely candidate for the 4th Texas Infantry, it also opens the possibility of him being in an Arkansas or Louisiana regiment, since the same jackets and kepis were issued to those states.

 

[Asta]

There's always a fly in the ointment though.

How blue is cadet grey? The reproduction does look too blue for cadet grey.

Was the new supply of cloth used for the 4th Regiment's new uniforms after Gettysburg more blue than before? Therefore giving rise to the reports of them looking different?

Is Qorange's grey too grey for any period of the Houston Depot's supply? You could factor in weathering and the effects of sun damage.

Nothing's ever simple.

Though I do feel closer to having solved the identity crisis.

 

[lieutenant dan]

After doing more digging myself, I agree with you about the shell jacket looking like the Columbus Type I, apart from the pointed cuff facings. Maybe they based the design on a modern sutler's store replica? I have seen several picture of replica jackets that have the same collar, cuffs and number of buttons.
Given that the number of uniforms needed almost certainly meant that the tailoring was farmed out to the local women and children, then slight variations of the official pattern would probably have occurred. As to shades of grey for locally produced uniforms, then they would have varied a lot... and that's before they had been worn for a few weeks in the sun. Coloured collar and cuff facings, together with "I" buttons would have been uncommon though, especially on uniforms issued in the Western theatre.

I searched for an image of what the imported cloth jacket (issued after Gettysburg) might have looked like. The jacket design is from 1864, but the cloth and colour would have been pretty much the same:

I know people see (and even spell) colour differently, but that looks pretty blueish to me.

 

[Asta]

After doing more digging myself, I agree with you about the shell jacket looking like the Columbus Type I, apart from the pointed cuff facings. Maybe they based the design on a modern sutler's store replica? I have seen several picture of replica jackets that have the same collar, cuffs and number of buttons.
Given that the number of uniforms needed almost certainly meant that the tailoring was farmed out to the local women and children, then slight variations of the official pattern would probably have occurred. As to shades of grey for locally produced uniforms, then they would have varied a lot... and that's before they had been worn for a few weeks in the sun. Coloured collar and cuff facings, together with "I" buttons would have been uncommon though, especially on uniforms issued in the Western theatre.

I searched for an image of what the imported cloth jacket (issued after Gettysburg) might have looked like. The jacket design is from 1864, but the cloth and colour would have been pretty much the same:

View attachment 661167

I know people see (and even spell) colour differently, but that looks pretty blueish to me.

That is a very blue jacket.

The Columbus Type I was the only one on that site that seemed to fit the bill. However, they didn't mention the Houston at all.

It was several searches later that I found the PDF chronicling the history of Captain Wharton, his Houston Depot, and how dominant his design was in Texas, which isn't surprising based on his location.

I think Qorange based theirs on the Houston. I don't know if that was by luck or judgement, and how much research they did, but it took me a while to get there as none of the artwork of Texas Confederates looked remotely like it. Some even showed black collars and cuffs.

The Qorange and the Houston have the same number of buttons; pointed cuffs; service colours on the collar and cuffs and no epaulettes. The Qorange kepi, in the same colour as the jacket and with the service band, also tallies with the Houston uniform.

Houston's selection of buttons also appears to allow for the "I" that Qorange used on theirs.

The only tailoring issue left for me is the colour Qorange chose. It's a bit too grey for cadet grey, which has a hint of blue in it - though that could depend on the deliveries of cloth Wharton was receiving.

Beyond tailoring there's the question of the period the figure represents. To avoid the matter of the 4th's new blue uniforms after Gettysburg, the figure in his shell jacket could more comfortably slot into time between late 1862 and mid 1863. (Wharton began tailoring in Autumn 1862, and issued uniforms before the end of the year).

The frock coat could then be used to represent 1861 to 1862.


Alternatively, there's the possibility of having him represent the 4th Infantry Regiments of Louisiana or Arkansas, as both those states received supplies of the Houston jackets and kepis.

Switching states is feasible since the "CS" belt plate was non-regulation and non-state specific, and the buttons are the generic infantry version.

 

[Asta]

https://bbs.bbicn.com/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=396840&_dsign=f1203c63

The armbands of QORANGE QOTOYS QOM-1032 and QOM-1033 will be knitted will be better, Thank you for your support .

 

[abake]

Somebody should do figures of the Long Riders...

 

[Asta]

Somebody should do figures of the Long Riders...

Hot Toys started, but, as usual, failed to complete the team...

 

[lieutenant dan]

That is a very blue jacket.

The Columbus Type I was the only one on that site that seemed to fit the bill. However, they didn't mention the Houston at all.

It was several searches later that I found the PDF chronicling the history of Captain Wharton, his Houston Depot, and how dominant his design was in Texas, which isn't surprising based on his location.

I think Qorange based theirs on the Houston. I don't if that was by luck or judgement, and how much research they did, but it took me a while to get there as none of the artwork of Texas Confederates looked remotely it. Some even showed black collars and cuffs.

The Qorange and the Houston have the same number of buttons; pointed cuffs; service colours on the collar and cuffs and no epaulettes. The Qorange kepi, in the same colour as the jacket and with the service band, also tallies with the Houston uniform.

Houston's selection of buttons also appears to allow for the "I" that Qorange used on theirs.

The only tailoring issue left for me is the colour Qorange chose. It's a bit too grey for cadet grey, which has a hint of blue in it - though that could depend on the deliveries of cloth Wharton was receiving.

Beyond tailoring there's the question of the period the figure represents. To avoid the matter of the 4th's new blue uniforms after Gettysburg, the figure in his shell jacket could more comfortably slot into time between late 1862 and mid 1863. (Wharton began tailoring in Autumn 1862, and issued uniforms before the end of the year).

The frock coat could then be used to represent 1861 to 1862.


Alternatively, there's the possibility of having him represent the 4th Infantry Regiments of Louisiana or Arkansas, as both those states received supplies of the Houston jackets and kepis.

Switching states is feasible since the "CS" belt plate was non-regulation and non-state specific, and the buttons are the generic infantry version.

Yes, I think the frock coat and kepi (or civilian hat)would work for an early war look. A "lone star" Texas buckle would probably be more appropriate than the CS one... I think Battlegear make one. (I would still ditch the cartridge box plate, though ).
I think the Texas Brigade would have been resupplied by the Richmond depot, after they joined the Army of Northern Virginia in late Sept 1861, so a Louisiana or Arkansas regiment would fit better wrt the shell jacket. Is good to read that they are upgrading the rank chevrons.

I still have the old Sidehow 1st Texas figure and uniform set somewhere in my spare room.

 

[lieutenant dan]

Somebody should do figures of the Long Riders...

I thought for a second, you meant these guys ...

 

[Asta]

Yes, I think the frock coat and kepi (or civilian hat)would work for an early war look. A "lone star" Texas buckle would probably be more appropriate than the CS one... I think Battlegear make one.

The Lone Star belt plate is a big miss by Qorange in order to really sell the figure as a Texan.

I'll just have to imagine that due to shortages my pair had to get theirs from another source.

(I would still ditch the cartridge box plate, though ).

It may not be too obvious when on display.

If it's the usual weak Chinese glue it might prise off without causing damage to the leather.

 

[lieutenant dan]

I forgot to mention that his rifle must be a captured one, as I just noticed the parts list say Springfield, rather than Enfield.

 

[Asta]

The Texas and Iowa pairs arrived.

I'll show this one first because up until now I haven't been able to find any in hand photos of the Confederate:

Thankfully the sculpt paint improved a lot since those horrible, greasy prototype shots. It's even better than he appears with my flash photography. More matt, proper flesh tones and very lifelike eyes. Unfortunately it's still Vincent van Gogh, and I don't know whether I'll ever be able to un-see that.

 

[Asta]

The bayonet, scabbard and mug are metal. The canteen is fabric covered metal, and the Springfield rifle is metal apart from the 'wooden' parts which are plastic.

I don't know how accurate the Springfield is as I haven't identified which model it's supposed to be. If it's the 1861 then the little metal bars are on the wrong side of the bands.

Photo from the Wikipedia page for reference:

Qorange's has "US Springfield" engraved on the lockplate, with the eagle emblem to the left with one wing under the hammer assembly. The hammer moves and the trigger is on a spring.

EDIT:

Forgot to mention that it comes with a buttonhook, which is something that DID have given up including.

 

[Asta]

On the face of it the body is good quality. A proper narrow shoulder with a similar physique to DID's.

Yet something happened that has never happened to me before.

I was putting his shirt back on after testing out some things in preparation for using spare parts to make a classic Jonah Hex, and the two halves of his right bicep fell apart so the elbow was no longer attached to anything.

It's not a break, but a failure of the glue holding the parts together. I could barely see any evidence of glue. It was a simple fix, but not something you'd want to happen if you'd just finished putting all the gear onto the figure.

 

[Chambea1114]

The Texas and Iowa pairs arrived.

I'll show this one first because up until now I haven't been able to find any in hand photos of the Confederate:

View attachment 685506
View attachment 685510
View attachment 685507View attachment 685508View attachment 685509

Thankfully the sculpt paint improved a lot since those horrible, greasy prototype shots. It's even better than he appears with my flash photography. More matt, proper flesh tones and very lifelike eyes. Unfortunately it's still Vincent van Gogh, and I don't know whether I'll ever be able to un-see that.

This must be Brownart rebranded or they are just using the same factory, everything down to the packaging and the button tool are the exact same as BA's Napoleonic offerings.