Are Hot Toys figures losing thier value on the secondary market?

[asgardianboy]

On average, pleather last 6-8yrs.

Sure it will crumble to pieces eventually, but why 6-8 years? Any proof of that?

As mentioned in another thread, the figure needs to be aired.

I don't know about that....... I always thought that the problem with pleather is that it is not completely inert. It does react with oxygen. Some crytical part of it oxydizes little by little, especially if exposed off its box. If pleather is of a particularly bad quality, even with the artbox' limited amount of oxygen, pleather would deteriorate and degrade to dust. That was what I always considered the most plausible explanation to pleather decay, given my restricted knowledge of Chemistry.
Should this theory be correct, airing the fig would not help. Quite the contrary.
So, is there any evidence provided in that other thread?

There is no way these pleather figures will last years and years.

They have a limited lifespan and should depreciate over time as you get less useful life out of it.

But most profiteers don't realise this simple scientific fact.

If you buy this figure new and then sell it near same price at year 6 then you have had complete free enjoyment of it.

The sucker that bought at year 6 will suddenly find that two years down the line the figure starts falling apart and looking skanky taht they are even afraid of displaying it to friends.

Correct. I bought HT Dutch and Billy some years back and their pleather equipment was very damaged.......
That's why learning to do your own pleather would be a very useful skill. As long as the pleather piece is not too complex (maybe the boots, maybe sheaths/holsters and small accessories like a bandolier or a pouch), you could try and do it yourself. Problem comes with such items as e.g. Finn's jacket....... no way, too complex. And so far down the line, there won't be spares, or they will be decaying too. It would take an artist to redo such a piece... :-/

Pleather looks awesome, but it is a problem yet to be fixed... And no oil application will save it from decay, as far as I know.

:-(
RfC
m.

 

[asgardianboy]

I think some Hot Toys will lose value over time simply because some of the cheaper materials used means that it has quite a limited shelf life.

I made a post about the Fire Toys Catwoman and started getting confirmation about the flaking faux leather and rubber.

Googling shows this is quite a common issue.

I think as soon as your figure reaches that flaking stage then its value will plummet as it is mainly about aesthetics and the majority of buyers would not want a flaking figure.

People around here are doing their own pleather. Some of them are even buying real leather patches on ebay and refining them for use in 1/6 scale. Learning how to do that would help you keep your figures in the very long run, as long as the broken pleather piece is doable.

But rubber... that really is undoable, unless 3D printers begin to print on rubber... right?
RfC
m.

 

[asgardianboy]

Most of the HT figs that I sell either go for retail price or just under. Basically your never gonna make a lot from your HT figs but your not really losing your money because in my experience you can usually always get your money back on these things.

What you say is true, but it is not because older figures are very sought for, but because of generalised and unstoppable 1/6 price inflation.
Thus far I have also normally sold any figure I have bought in the past (even older Sideshow stuff) at such prices that I have recouped what I paid for them (even with a little something to compensate for inflation, even maybe with some marginal benefit). But that is only because prices have gone up at such a nonsensical rate that people are just fine with paying amounts that were directly out of question back in e.g. 2012.

Now, for how long can the 1/6 price bubble keep going? Will we be able to justify buying figs when they reach the $400 mark? For how long can market leaders like Hot Toys keep asking higher and higher prices for figures that just can't physically get any better, as a quality ceiling has clearly been reached and today's figures look like 30cm human beings? Maybe HT's likenesses might become regularly perfect (they can be still today a hit and miss, like in HT's SW range) because they won't be sculpted anymore (a high-cost, time-consuming part of development) but directly, and way more cheaply, taken off the actor via a 3D scanner, but beyond that, I can't see what HT will ever be able to do to improve their products as clothes are always spot-on, bodies have been perfect since TTM was introduced, light-up features are commonplace these days (even sound features too!), paintjobs are always awesome and realism is guaranteed, etc... HT might get to fix the unsolved durability problem (pleather and rubber being long-term fig killers), even though they won't because it will hurt their own business (figures breaking over time is good for them, a guarantee of future purchases when they revisit any character), but once fixed, I can't see how figures will get any better, and at that point, once perfection reached, because of unstoppable technology improvement, manufacture costs and hence prices should start to go down or at least compensate for the also unstoppable rise of standards of living in China (i.e. salaries on the rise).

In summary: I am guessing prices should soon stop to increase and start to go down in the near future, unless HT begins to be VERY creative, which I don't expect.

What do you guys think? What improvements could market leaders introduce to justify higher prices, which actually derive from China's cost of life escalating?
How long will people (Americans, Europeans, and above all, the really big market: Asia) keep buying figures from shows they forget about a few years down the line, if prices are always on the rise? and if sale decline as prices rise, what will happen to HT and cia, and the hobby at large?

RfC
Thanks,
m.

 

[Tyler1234]

Sure it will crumble to pieces eventually, but why 6-8 years? Any proof of that?



I don't know about that....... I always thought that the problem with pleather is that it is not completely inert. It does react with oxygen. Some crytical part of it oxydizes little by little, especially if exposed off its box. If pleather is of a particularly bad quality, even with the artbox' limited amount of oxygen, pleather would deteriorate and degrade to dust. That was what I always considered the most plausible explanation to pleather decay, given my restricted knowledge of Chemistry.
Should this theory be correct, airing the fig would not help. Quite the contrary.
So, is there any evidence provided in that other thread?




Correct. I bought HT Dutch and Billy some years back and their pleather equipment was very damaged.......
That's why learning to do your own pleather would be a very useful skill. As long as the pleather piece is not too complex (maybe the boots, maybe sheaths/holsters and small accessories like a bandolier or a pouch), you could try and do it yourself. Problem comes with such items as e.g. Finn's jacket....... no way, too complex. And so far down the line, there won't be spares, or they will be decaying too. It would take an artist to redo such a piece... :-/

Pleather looks awesome, but it is a problem yet to be fixed... And no oil application will save it from decay, as far as I know.

:-(
RfC
m.

I am no scientist so this is just from personal experience and talking to other fellow collectors.

My own Hot Toys Catwoman actually started flaking at year 5 but that figure is notoriously famous for flaking due to the huge amount of pleather and rubber used so cannot be used as an average.

My wife also collects a lot leather and pleather handbags so I have had direct experience of how quickly pleather's chemical bond starts breaking down even with pleather protection treatment (there is a reason real leather cost a lot more and is the preferred material).


There is a direct thread on Sideshow forum: https://www.sideshowcollectors.com/...e-anne-hathaway-hot-toys-copy-catwoman-2.html

Where another forum user asked a Chem Major who also gave an 8yr estimate for pleather's average life.

Obviously this is just an average and different handling and environment will be different for every users.

 

[greenpanda]

Yes. I am the guy that asked a Chemistry Major guy about the pleather average life time.

Hot Toys Catwoman have a lot of flaking issue even from year 4 (taken from other owners experience on various forums but I don't actually own one myself).

But then again you have other users here saying their Catwoman have no flaking whatsoever.

So the variation is obviously quite wide.

Either way, his reasoning still stand whether the figure last 8yrs or longer at 12yrs.

This is a product with finite shelf life.

Even if a collector treat it with pleather protection every year or keep it non moving in a detolf, there is no way these figure will last for 15yrs.

Since when pleather flakes, they can really disintegrate to absolute dust and this is a product that relies almost entirely on its aesthetic then its value should actually depreciate over time or at least a lower value to account for the increasingly higher risk of having a worthless product.

There is also the double whammy of figures getting more and more realistic as 3D mapping becomes more mainstream.

Having done some research on the facial mapping mentioned by other collectors.

I have found there are now AI software that can guess the overall shape of a face from just photos being taken from different angles.

The more angles you have the more accurate the AI guess.

It is what most big brother government uses to catch criminals or others they deem undesirables.

So, in the future, a company don't really have to pay a license fee or get the consent of a certain actor to do an accurate head sculpt.

They just need enough different angles of the actor from movies or photos to do a realistic sculpt.

And of course a popular actor will by definition have a large body of work to take these images from.

 

[xipotec]

I am a chemistry guy....

Pleather flaking has several causes besides the initial quality of the material.

Handling: everyone secrets oils ,sweat and other compounds detrimental to the pleather, and many peoples secretions are more acidic than others.

Lighting: types of lighting (and spectrum) cause quicker degridation

Humidity: killer of pleather, dryness. Too much moisture, mold.

Overall , my two pleather figures are looking great, (T800 and Eric Draven)

But I try to follow the above rules.


Sent from the inside of a giant slug in outer space.....

 

[greenpanda]

I am a chemistry guy....

Pleather flaking has several causes besides the initial quality of the material.

Handling: everyone secrets oils ,sweat and other compounds detrimental to the pleather, and many peoples secretions are more acidic than others.

Lighting: types of lighting (and spectrum) cause quicker degridation

Humidity: killer of pleather, dryness. Too much moisture, mold.

Overall , my two pleather figures are looking great, (T800 and Eric Draven)

But I try to follow the above rules.

Sent from the inside of a giant slug in outer space.....

So would you agree that on average 8yrs is a good rough guess for pleather, rubber degradation or would you say its a lot longer.

Maybe as a Chemistry guy, you can give us a better range of estimate.

Is it also true that pleather treatment helps only minimally?

I think on the other forums, people are saying keeping it in the box unopened is bad because it drys out quicker especially with the moisture absorbing silica - although I feel such "collectors" are probably just speculators / profiteers if they never even take the figure out to appreciate.

Serve them right if they get burned on the secondary market.

 

[asgardianboy]

I am a chemistry guy....

Pleather flaking has several causes besides the initial quality of the material.

Handling: everyone secrets oils ,sweat and other compounds detrimental to the pleather, and many peoples secretions are more acidic than others.

Lighting: types of lighting (and spectrum) cause quicker degridation

Humidity: killer of pleather, dryness. Too much moisture, mold.

Overall , my two pleather figures are looking great, (T800 and Eric Draven)

But I try to follow the above rules.


Sent from the inside of a giant slug in outer space.....

What rules are those?


I'll just speak my mind, even though I am no Chemistry expert.

Regarding handling: this is one of the least problems. In my experience, sweat is never the culprit of pleather rot. Lots of sweat would be needed to damage the pleather. When you open an old MIB fig and pleather becomes dust the moment you start handling it, you understand that the real destroyer is air.

Too much humidity-->mould: that would be in REALLY extreme conditions, right? And on top of that we would be talking about an external process, not related with pleather decay but with microorganisms feeding on it. That is very different, and might be avoided with regular cleaning.

Regarding dryness: I don't think the lack of humidity affects pleather in any way. Pleather is no living tissue, it does not feed on some water supply to stay alive, as plants and animals do. That being said, humidity might be a catalyzer in the rotting process.

Regarding UV presence in lighting: perfectly avoidable, especially with current, inexpensive UV-free LED light sources.

Regarding protective treatments: unless they leave a clear residue that blocks air from attacking the treated pleather, I don't think that stuff makes any difference. UV protection is not needed, and pleather absorving liquids doesn't seem like a good idea (even if it is for protection).

I surmise the only real pleather killer is its porosity, and the presence of elements reactive to oxygen in all layers that form it (remember how it entirely crumbles to dust, as if it was rotten from the inside, as if it was somehow defective in its very composition, not because of external damage). I don't even think higher humidity or average temperature pose problems (otherwise, incidence of pleather rot in hot countries would be sharply higher, which is still unheard of).

RfC
m.

 

[Sassafras]

On average, pleather last 6-8yrs.

Then say you paid $250.

250/8 = $31.25 per year of enjoyment.

If you look at it this way then its quite reasonable.

But I see on Ebays some sellers selling this 6yr old figure brand new mint in box.

As mentioned in another thread, the figure needs to be aired.

So what should happen in a few more years is these profiteers sell it BNMIB but when the buyer opens it and start touching the pleather or start moving and posing the figure then notice the flaking and demanding to be refunded with picture evidence.

It really only starts to flake when you touch or move it if its kept mint in box.

But not being aired would exacerbate the pleather's chemical degradation more quickly.

There is no way these pleather figures will last years and years.

They have a limited lifespan and should depreciate over time as you get less useful life out of it.

But most profiteers don't realise this simple scientific fact.

If you buy this figure new and then sell it near same price at year 6 then you have had complete free enjoyment of it.

The sucker that bought at year 6 will suddenly find that two years down the line the figure starts falling apart and looking skanky taht they are even afraid of displaying it to friends.

Like this post. When I first started collecting read that a reasonable expectation of a fig is 10 years. Maybe mine will last longer, maybe not. I've gotten a lot of happiness out of 'em.

But I will no longer pick up used older figs, or even older new figs - for me it's just not worth it knowing plastic/vinyl is gonna be breaking down. I don't even know if in a few years folks will care about a lot of 'em, too interested in whatever is new in theaters etc.

Come to think of it, I should re-think getting rid of all those boxes and plastic trays. I dunno. Suppose in theory if u wait 40-50 years ur pricey IM enters the "rarity" market if u keep it pristine with box. But do I wanna bother - I bought for myself, not to resell or turn over the collection. Time may come when I happily recycle all the space-sucking packaging.

 

[greenpanda]

Like this post. When I first started collecting read that a reasonable expectation of a fig is 10 years. Maybe mine will last longer, maybe not. I've gotten a lot of happiness out of 'em.

But I will no longer pick up used older figs, or even older new figs - for me it's just not worth it knowing plastic/vinyl is gonna be breaking down. I don't even know if in a few years folks will care about a lot of 'em, too interested in whatever is new in theaters etc.

Come to think of it, I should re-think getting rid of all those boxes and plastic trays. I dunno. Suppose in theory if u wait 40-50 years ur pricey IM enters the "rarity" market if u keep it pristine with box. But do I wanna bother - I bought for myself, not to resell or turn over the collection. Time may come when I happily recycle all the space-sucking packaging.

As I said in another similar thread, as soon as 3D facial mapping becomes mainstream in the figures market, the bottom will completely fall out of it.

All those profiteers that bought Hot Toys for $300-400 will suddenly find they are competing with new figures that are a lot cheaper and photo realistic.

The fact that older figure have rubber degradation and pleather flaking is the least of their problems.

 

[Grimlock]

As I said in another similar thread, as soon as 3D facial mapping becomes mainstream in the figures market, the bottom will completely fall out of it.

All those profiteers that bought Hot Toys for $300-400 will suddenly find they are competing with new figures that are a lot cheaper and photo realistic.

The fact that older figure have rubber degradation and pleather flaking is the least of their problems.

I confused, I’m a profiteer because I bought HT figures? [emoji848]


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[greenpanda]

I confused, I’m a profiteer because I bought HT figures? [emoji848]


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I don't mean everybody that have bought a Hot Toy is a profiteer.

Sorry, I wasn't very clear but in the other thread, I was referring to people selling it brand new unopened even though the Hot Toys Catwoman is nearly a 7yr old figure.

If they have never even open their collection in all that time, I feel that these are likely to be non collectors buying it purely to cash in.

There are several buyers who have complain they bough these older figures BNIB but it starts flaking and crumblling as soon as they start moving the figure:

https://www.sideshowcollectors.com/...ghlight=Toys+Catwoman&highlight=Toys+Catwoman

 

[Sassafras]

I don't mean everybody that have bought a Hot Toy is a profiteer.

Sorry, I wasn't very clear but in the other thread, I was referring to people selling it brand new unopened even though the Hot Toys Catwoman is nearly a 7yr old figure.

If they have never even open their collection in all that time, I feel that these are likely to be non collectors buying it purely to cash in.

There are several buyers who have complain they bough these older figures BNIB but it starts flaking and crumblling as soon as they start moving the figure:

https://www.sideshowcollectors.com/...ghlight=Toys+Catwoman&highlight=Toys+Catwoman

Yeah, IMO too who knows how a sealed product is kept re temperature - e.g. hot warehouse or other accelerating pleather breakdown. Plus figure HT is all over the place mixing up its batches of vinyl - there's no consistency so some folks have issues, and some don't. One of the saddest vids I watched is rotting Alien figs - and then u have Gumbies and Barbies that last 50 years....

I've picked up older NIB figs, opened, and u can smell the off-gassing. My last older fig was Vision NIB from Timecent, A small part of the protective plastic at the wrist literally fused to the patterned suit underneath. Can't get it off without peeling the pattern off the suit.

The gauntlet covers it so I just cut off plastic where I could and left as is. Glad to have Vision for my AOU display - but, unless it's an insane deal, I'm sticking to new figs and picking up spare costumes - some 3rd party - now and then in case I need to repair something.

 

[jkno]

Hot Toys don't seem to be collectibles you'll be able top pass to the upcoming generations. Too many of them will break down in the next years, some sooner, others later. Besides the low quality pleather/faux leather, Hot Toys also uses low quality rubber suits and bodies, and even lower quality plastic which will degrade in much shorter time than said Barbies. I'm curious how their figures hold in the Hot Toys museum and their own warehouse/archive.