Captain America: Civil War (May 6, 2016)

[xmentoysplease]

PMd you a link. I checked it out, works fine.

Thanks

 

[ChronoBreak]

did anyone else notice

Spoiler

all the spoiler tags?

 

[Platty]

Just got back.

Loved it. Still prefer winter soldier but this is a very very close second.

My one complaint, and this is a complaint about every marvel movie, not jist this one, is that they make cap look really weak sometimes. Dude has super strength, super speed, agility, sometimes they really downplay it. I know he's no pushover but, spidey stops Bucky's arm mid punch, cap can't. Stuff like that. Maybe that's how it is in the comics, I don't know. There's one scene in civil war where he's beating down iron man and ironmans onboard computer says 'you can't take him on hand to hand' and you're like '**** yeah! Cap!!' Then iron man randomly stops him and puts him down.

Great movie though. Wasn't as grim and emotionally depleting as I was expecting. The two teams spend more 'friendly' time together than I was expecting too. The whole reason they were fighting was kind of weak, but so was the fight, so it's kind of okay.

 

[Victοr]

Just got back.

Loved it. Still prefer winter soldier but this is a very very close second.

My one complaint, and this is a complaint about every marvel movie, not jist this one, is that they make cap look really weak sometimes. Dude has super strength, super speed, agility, sometimes they really downplay it. I know he's no pushover but, spidey stops Bucky's arm mid punch, cap can't. Stuff like that. Maybe that's how it is in the comics, I don't know. There's one scene in civil war where he's beating down iron man and ironmans onboard computer says 'you can't take him on hand to hand' and you're like '**** yeah! Cap!!' Then iron man randomly stops him and puts him down.

Great movie though. Wasn't as grim and emotionally depleting as I was expecting. The two teams spend more 'friendly' time together than I was expecting too. The whole reason they were fighting was kind of weak, but so was the fight, so it's kind of okay.

Cap is peak-human or super-human, depending on the writer. But he can in no way compete with Tony or Spider-Man. The former, depending on the version, can lift up to 100 tons, and Spidey hovers around the 10-20 ton area. There's no way Cap can tank their hits at full strength. As for Bucky, he's got a state-of-the-art bionic arm, and the Red Room did some tinkering with him in the comic-verse. Cap's no pushover, but he's not amongst them. Having him be able to say, punch Spider-Man and actually hurt him would as PIS as that time Batman knocked out the Hulk... If anything, the MCU has done him justice, as he's able to kick whole jeeps and send dudes flying.

 

[Platty]

Makes you wonder what's the point in the super soldier serum

 

[Spartan Rex]

Makes you wonder what's the point in the super soldier serum

I think the movies have shown well how capable the serum makes Rogers.

 

[cmiller99]

Makes you wonder what's the point in the super soldier serum

He was made in the '40's.

He's still plenty capable though. Spiderman and Stark have the advantages of modern tech to help them in their super abilities while Cap just usually wears a suit and carries his shield.

 

[fosing]

so who died...

Spoiler

 

[Oxnard Montalvo]

There's literally only one thing that didn't sit right with me......

Spoiler

When they told Scott, that 'if you join us you're a criminal.....and he was like,.... "ok so whats new"....., there's no way that he'd do that to Cassie...... it just seemed a liitle too easy, just to have Ant/Giant Man in the fight

 

[LOTRfan85]

You know I thought it would have been better if they had used this as the government's excuse for oversight; rogue creations (including Vision probably) does give genuine concern over the safety of the general public.

But Ross pointing out the events of Avengers, TWS & AoU (when Ultron had already been created) as the trigger for government control? I thought that was kinda weak. I mean, with the power levels of those villains, wouldn't it have been total annihilation if the Avengers hadn't been there?

Which is why I agree with Cap's stance that it is impossible to save everyone, not with that thin roster of heroes. And considering the events of TWS, I thought it weird that any of the team would even entertain the idea ceding control to the government. If there's anything, or anyone, that needed oversight, it should only be directed towards the mad/brilliant scientists themselves, i.e. Stark and Banner.

I guess that is my only gripe with the plot - the kinda weak reason for government oversight in the first place.

That is not weak plot point, Steve points this out the governments flaws, they are people with Agendas trying to find plotholes to blame the Avengers, like Steve says its shifting the blame, hell look at Ross he is the face that sums up the governments Agendas, this is covered the government is flawed, and these ideology's between Steve and Tony are clashing, look at Avengers Assembled they tried to nuke NY so this does add up to the Government finding ways to blame the avengers, and they have been trying to hang the avengers up to dry which has been the case for years in the MCU.

Tony is not really thinking rationally, from Tony's first scene in CW they show us how much guilt lives within Tony, from his parents death, to then dealing with the Ultron creation with one sokovia's victims family's who calls Tony out, that really starts pushing Tony over the edge, lets not only forget Tony's problems with pepper, Tony is too blind with emotion to see things clearly.

There's literally only one thing that didn't sit right with me......

Spoiler

When they told Scott, that 'if you join us you're a criminal.....and he was like,.... "ok so whats new"....., there's no way that he'd do that to Cassie...... it just seemed a liitle too easy, just to have Ant/Giant Man in the fight

The final act for me makes this film what it truly is, civil war. The film hinges on that final act, and its what makes this film what could have been a generic final act to a masterstroke of emotion, the final 15 minutes are my fave, loved the entire film but that final 15 minutes are really special, it goes deeper into these ideology's clashing from all angles to the breaking point

 

[tdk5]

That is not weak plot point, Steve points this out the governments flaws, they are people with Agendas trying to find plotholes to blame the Avengers, like Steve says its shifting the blame, hell look at Ross he is the face that sums up the governments Agendas, this is covered the government is flawed, and these ideology's between Steve and Tony are clashing, look at Avengers Assembled they tried to nuke NY so this does add up to the Government finding ways to blame the avengers, and they have been trying to hang the avengers up to dry which has been the case for years in the MCU

Yeah if anything, it's the government agencies (SHIELD particularly) that made missteps threatening the safety of the Earth; experimenting with the Tasseract thereby drawing Thanos' attention, attempting to solve the Chitauri issue by nuking an entire city and worse, allowing themselves to be infiltrated by HYDRA for so many years and almost causing instantaneous death to millions of lives. Objectively speaking, had it not been for the Avengers, Earth would be a goner by now...which is why I understood and stand by Cap's decision. Even he knew that his & the other Avengers' role had always been the "janitor" as in TWS.

Tony probably would have though same if he hadn't been directly responsible for Ultron. You're right in that his emotions and guilt got the better of him in his decision-making process because if he had looked at the situation with a clear mind, he would have found that his deduction in Iron Man 2 of the government not being able to be trusted with such great power was right.

But you gotta really feel for Tony; he had a genuine good heart to protect the earth but it all went south. Then he was given the shock of his life in the last act. But am satisfied with how they ended the film.

 

[RavenEye]

I just want pictures of Spider-Man!

 

[amvmm]

Great Movie!

Top 3 MCU so far:

- Civil War
- Guardians
- Avengers

 

[e30ernest]

But you gotta really feel for Tony; he had a genuine good heart to protect the earth but it all went south. Then he was given the shock of his life in the last act. But am satisfied with how they ended the film.

Spoiler

He tried to do the right thing, but ended up doing the opposite. Since AoU, Wanda has been a symbol of Stark's foils. Perhaps that's why he was going out of his way to protect her too. That scene in the "Raft" resonated with me. He couldn't even look her in the eye. He tried to make things right again, only to get the shock of his life in Siberia.

So from the guy who had everything in IM1, one could argue Tony lost everything at the end of CW. I feel for the guy. He's really lost in the middle of his good intentions.

I will watch this again. I have to.

 

[tylerdurden]

Spoiler

I saw it as his weakness. Which in my opinion gave him a more human character. If he had a weak spot, this was it. Even in TWS his leaning towards saving/getting back Bucky can be viewed as a tactical error. He is an idealist, making him a good counter to Stark's cynicism. I think it was a conscious choice in the part of the directors and I think it was a good choice. He can't be always right.

Spoiler

i see where you're coming from, and i don't necessarily disagree. i also get that cap is an idealist, but he's never an idealist at the expense of practicality or the greater good. in ws, his loyalty to bucky didn't really affect anyone because it came at the end when his mission to bring down all the helicarriers had been completed. all that was left was to try and bring bucky back to the light, so to speak. to cap, the only way to accomplish that was to lay his life on the line, because that's what the old bucky would do for him (hence their shared saying "i'm with you, til the end of the line"). it was a risky gamble but it paid off. it still painted cap as selfless and in a way, tactically sound since he was using deep emotional catharsis to jolt bucky out of his amnesia/brainwashing.

in cw, his stubbornness to accept the sokovia accords initially wasn't about bucky at all, until later in the story. at first it was a purely philosophical rejection, which to me felt out of character. in the comics, there was at least a sizable enough population of masked supers whose safety could be compromised with the superhuman registration act. in the movie version, this was about regulation of jurisdiction and accountability, which is a totally different issue, and actually has some merit. plus, there aren't that many supers/enhanced in the mcu, so who is cap really fighting for? you could say it's an ideal where it applies to all future persons of interest, but right in that moment, it felt like cap was protecting a small bunch of people that weren't really being persecuted in any way to begin with. no action had been taken on any of the avengers, no vengeful mob had come for them, so it didn't feel dire enough for cap to react that way yet. that's why i said in a previous post that they should've brought the issue of bucky murdering tony's parents right upfront, so that at least the character motivations would be much more justifiable, at least from an emotional standpoint.

the thing for me is that this movie is supposed to be cap's. and it's hard to sympathise with a protagonist who feels like he's making a "wrong" choice. i put that in quotes because it's not strictly wrong from a moral or even legal standpoint. it just feels unearned and out of step with the cap we know.

BUT. like i also said, none of this really derails the movie for me. cw is still one heck of a movie.

 

[tylerdurden]

It's a joke bro XD

oh i know, i was just reverse trolling. (is that a thing? nevermind, i'm making it a thing.)

 

[Hydeous]

Spoiler

I saw it as his weakness. Which in my opinion gave him a more human character. If he had a weak spot, this was it. Even in TWS his leaning towards saving/getting back Bucky can be viewed as a tactical error. He is an idealist, making him a good counter to Stark's cynicism. I think it was a conscious choice in the part of the directors and I think it was a good choice. He can't be always right.

Spoiler

i see where you're coming from, and i don't necessarily disagree. i also get that cap is an idealist, but he's never an idealist at the expense of practicality or the greater good. in ws, his loyalty to bucky didn't really affect anyone because it came at the end when his mission to bring down all the helicarriers had been completed. all that was left was to try and bring bucky back to the light, so to speak. to cap, the only way to accomplish that was to lay his life on the line, because that's what the old bucky would do for him (hence their shared saying "i'm with you, til the end of the line"). it was a risky gamble but it paid off. it still painted cap as selfless and in a way, tactically sound since he was using deep emotional catharsis to jolt bucky out of his amnesia/brainwashing.

in cw, his stubbornness to accept the sokovia accords initially wasn't about bucky at all, until later in the story. at first it was a purely philosophical rejection, which to me felt out of character. in the comics, there was at least a sizable enough population of masked supers whose safety could be compromised with the superhuman registration act. in the movie version, this was about regulation of jurisdiction and accountability, which is a totally different issue, and actually has some merit. plus, there aren't that many supers/enhanced in the mcu, so who is cap really fighting for? you could say it's an ideal where it applies to all future persons of interest, but right in that moment, it felt like cap was protecting a small bunch of people that weren't really being persecuted in any way to begin with. no action had been taken on any of the avengers, no vengeful mob had come for them, so it didn't feel dire enough for cap to react that way yet. that's why i said in a previous post that they should've brought the issue of bucky murdering tony's parents right upfront, so that at least the character motivations would be much more justifiable, at least from an emotional standpoint.

the thing for me is that this movie is supposed to be cap's. and it's hard to sympathise with a protagonist who feels like he's making a "wrong" choice. i put that in quotes because it's not strictly wrong from a moral or even legal standpoint. it just feels unearned and out of step with the cap we know.

BUT. like i also said, none of this really derails the movie for me. cw is still one heck of a movie.

Spoiler

Cap has always doubted the govt ever since Avengers and also TWS, where he realised all of their agendas changes frequently depending on who's in charge atm. Makes perfect sense he's against signing the Sokovia accords. This isn't like BvS, where Batman decides to off Supes since he feels like he's got too much power for 1 man without any history for the viewers to relate to.

 

[LOTRfan85]

Yeah if anything, it's the government agencies (SHIELD particularly) that made missteps threatening the safety of the Earth; experimenting with the Tasseract thereby drawing Thanos' attention, attempting to solve the Chitauri issue by nuking an entire city and worse, allowing themselves to be infiltrated by HYDRA for so many years and almost causing instantaneous death to millions of lives. Objectively speaking, had it not been for the Avengers, Earth would be a goner by now...which is why I understood and stand by Cap's decision. Even he knew that his & the other Avengers' role had always been the "janitor" as in TWS.

Tony probably would have though same if he hadn't been directly responsible for Ultron. You're right in that his emotions and guilt got the better of him in his decision-making process because if he had looked at the situation with a clear mind, he would have found that his deduction in Iron Man 2 of the government not being able to be trusted with such great power was right.

But you gotta really feel for Tony; he had a genuine good heart to protect the earth but it all went south. Then he was given the shock of his life in the last act. But am satisfied with how they ended the film.

The ideology's are clashing from all angles for different reasons, Steve, Tony, Ross, they doing for all differenent reasons, lets face it Ross is not the most stable of guys, and that is why this plot works on all angles because we have history with these characters, which is why Civil war works they have the backstory of these characters because we all have gone on this journey.

Yea exactly if we look through the MCU these Agendas have been the case for years, and these flaws show through again which is why Steve is not stupid, the Ultron creation Steve and Tony ideology's are clashing then. If we look who is on Tony's side, their agreements with Tony are for different reasons, and Peter does not even have a clue what they are fighting for, even war machine's war mentality shows through, Vision does offer some logical advice, but again human's have caused these problems, its just coincidental since Tony's announcement has iron man has seen a greater possible extinct level of events. I argue Thor's arrival on earth has had a big part to play why Thanos has widened his gaze, so I say Thor has opened the gate for more outside worlds invading.

Tony's Ultron creation defiantly sees Tony driven by an Adrenalin of emotion, and you feel for Tony's guilt, which Ultron himself has really put his personal life and reputation in serious jeopardy, even Hank has no time for Stark. Like I say the 2 third's of the film really goes on that idea of these hero's ideology's clashing, but? the final act makes or breaks if this film really goes through with their title, civil war. They could not rely on the airport scene has civil war, that is where the villain was so crucial in this films engine that is driving the film. There was a 10 minute period where it could have lost so much steam, and the Russo Brothers really added more fuel to the fire and hit the home run, brought the emotion to the forefront of why this film is the best MCU film ever put on screen, its my fave comic book film of all time because the tone, the Ideology's clashing in such a smart way, hero's like Tony really worn down by so much war, and this film does not try to be dark, its just dark because of the stage we are at with these characters, it truly was a brawl of superhero's we finally deserved. That was what has made the latter stages of phase 2 and now 3 so much better, every reaction is having a severe reaction

 

[Sidewinder]

Very valid points, the only one I do have an explanation for is how Steve knew about Bucky and Stark's parents. In WS while Steve and Natasha was in the room talking to Zola(computer) he revealed that Hyrda was behind the deaths of Stark's parents. He explained that "accidents happen" while the screen shows a newspaper clip about Howard Stark's death. Since Hydra controlled Bucky, I think Steve just put 2 and 2 together.

I thought Cap said he didn't know who had killed the Starks, but knew they had been murdered by Hydra? Wasn't Tony under the impression his parents had been just killed in a car accident like it is meant to look? He mentions their car accident in his talk with the students at the beginning of the film after showing them a false memory of his past.

 

[Mr Walker]

Good movie. Really enjoyed it, and the casting of Bruhl as Zemo was imspired. Such a quality actor (I recommend everyone to go get Rush, if you haven't seen it, just for his performance).

Only thing I didn't really gel with was Spidey. They got his constant chatter right, but the suit still looks butt ugly, and I don't think they got some of his movements quite spot on.

Apart from that though, quality movie. The last 2 Cap movies really have been the pick of the bunch.