Chagas: Is tropical disease really the new AIDS?

[The Ween]

We should care about the birds - they help control the damn insect populations! Humans have drastically reduced animal numbers on our planet. For instance, Hawai'i has lost over 30% of its native bird species, and Guam has lost 60%! Here in Florida, the Dusky Seaside Sparrow's demise was mostly due to the usage of DDT. It became extinct around 1987.

The bottom line is that we should care about the creatures of the earth, big and small, because they were here long before we were.

I agree Agen, that's why they need to be careful IF they bring this back. When they had it before it was terrible overused and not properly.

Birds, and bees for that matter, are so important to the ecosystem. If they're gone, we're dead!

 

[The Ween]

If you saw a seagull with a broken wing about to get hit by a car, would you dive into the street to push it out of the way?

I've gotten out of the car to help critters in the street.

Behave!

 

[devilof76]

As I understand it, the claims regarding the effects of DDT on birds were fabrications.

Even if they were true, look at the statistics for malaria deaths in India before and after DDT was introduced. Then look at them after DDT was banned.

The EPA director in '71 has a whole lot of blood on his hands.

 

[agen_kolar]

If you saw a seagull with a broken wing about to get hit by a car, would you dive into the street to push it out of the way?

No, of course not! For fear of getting hit - but that's different from using a known lethal pesticide that single-handedly decimated populations of many bird species here in America. The Bald Eagle, Brown Pelican, Osprey, American Robin, etc. etc. populations fell to near-extinction levels. The pesticide didn't usually kill the birds themselves, but caused them to lay underdeveloped egg shells. The shells were so thin that they'd crack well before the chick developed, spilling the contents into the nest. So essentially, no new birds were being successfully raised and they were dying out more and more every year. As we all know, DDT was eventually banned. Though it took decades, most bird species recovered - but some, like the Dusky Seaside Sparrow, were doomed.

Furthermore, DDT isn't nearly as effective in the tropics, so it'd be of no benefit to killing the Chagas problem.

As I understand it, the claims regarding the effects of DDT on birds were fabrications.

It's been debated for years, but certainly not a complete fabrication. Bird populations plummeted after the introduction of DDT. Research showed that DDE is more likely whatcaused much of the thinning egg shells. As a sort of byproduct of DDT, I lumped them together in my previous statements.

 

[thenammagazine]

No, of course not! For fear of getting hit - but that's different from using a known lethal pesticide that single-handedly decimated populations of many bird species here in America..

There are people who not only would, but would expect it of you. Those are the idiots I'm talking about.

 

[agen_kolar]

There are people who not only would, but would expect it of you. Those are the idiots I'm talking about.

Yes, there are some who go to great lengths to save wildlife from traffic and such - some meeting their own end by attempting to save an animal from the same fate. In fact, I saw a news report of a man who saved an injured bald eagle from the middle of the road just tonight. He managed to avoid vehicles on the road, but a woman in Florida was obliterated by a semi a few years back as she tried to help a turtle across the road. Just be smart about it, people.

 

[devilof76]

It's been debated for years, but certainly not a complete fabrication. Bird populations plummeted after the introduction of DDT. Research showed that DDE is more likely whatcaused much of the thinning egg shells. As a sort of byproduct of DDT, I lumped them together in my previous statements.

Those bird populations were declining prior to the introduction of DDT.

https://dwb.unl.edu/Teacher/NSF/C06/C06Links/www.altgreen.com.au/Chemicals/ddt.html

As for effectiveness in the tropics, it worked fine in the Indian sub-continent.

 

[agen_kolar]

We could go back and forth - there are tons of articles about egg shell problems, and apparently some saying DDT wasn't to blame. Considering bird populations increased after DDT was no longer used, and considering there was enough reason for DDT to be banned worldwide, I'm gonna go with it is, indeed, harmful to the environment.

As far as the tropics go, DDT is less effective because mosquitoes breed more frequently in those areas due to the warm, moist environment - requiring much larger amounts of DDT to control them, almost certainly amounts hazardous to the environment.

 

[devilof76]

DDT was banned on account of public outcry. The EPA court that heard the case ruled it safe. The greens had a conniption and the director (Rucklehaus--a former member of the Environmental Defense Fund, the organization that brought the case for banning it to the Federal level) overruled them.

The 'science' against DDT has always started from the Rachel Carson hysteria and sought out facts to support her nonsense. No environmental or human threat has ever been proven, only hypothesized. It is a myth, and hundreds of millions of human beings are dead because of it.

 

[agen_kolar]

Hundreds of millions dead? I think that's a bit of an exaggeration. And I don't buy into the idea that it's completely safe at all. I'd like to see more thorough tests done, but I truly believe DDT/DDE was a main cause of the decline of many species of birds in the wild. The sudden growth of the species supposedly affected after the ban is reason enough to raise my eyebrow to the idea that this is all a myth.

But finally, something we disagree on.

 

[thenammagazine]

Haven't there been recorded events of birds dying in the thousands and tens of thousands due to natural phenomenon?

 

[agen_kolar]

No, you're thinking of bird kills. Those occur suddenly and are linked to a single, traumatic event.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bird_kill

In the case of DDT, bird populations, particularly of raptors, began to decline quite rapidly, to the point of many becoming nearly extinct. When DDT was banned, most of these species made a come back.

 

[devilof76]

You're certainly free to believe whatever you like.

Additionally, the evidence regarding the effect of DDT on eggshell thinning among wild birds is contradictory at best. The environmentalist literature claims that the birds threatened directly by the insecticide were laying eggs with thin shells. These shells, say the environmentalists, would eventually become so fragile that the eggs would break, causing a decline in bird populations, particularly among raptors (birds of prey).

In 1968 two researchers, Drs. Joseph J. Hickey and Daniel W. Anderson, reported that high concentrations of DDT were found in the eggs of wild raptor populations. The two concluded that increased eggshell fragility in peregrine falcons, bald eagles, and ospreys was due to DDT exposure.9 Dr. Joel Bitman and associates at the U.S. Department of Agriculture likewise determined that Japanese quail fed DDT produced eggs with thinner shells and lower calcium content.10

In actuality, however, declines in bird populations either had occurred before DDT was present or had occured years after DDT’s use. A comparison of the annual Audubon Christmas Bird Counts between 1941 (pre-DDT) and 1960 (after DDT’s use had waned) reveals that at least 26 different kinds of birds became more numerous during those decades, the period of greatest DDT usage. The Audubon counts document an overall increase in birds seen per observer from 1941 to 1960, and statistical analyses of the Audubon data confirm the perceived increases. For example, only 197 bald eagles were documented in 194111; the number had increased to 891 in 1960.12

At Hawk Mountain, Pennsylvania, teams of ornithologists made daily counts of migrating raptors for over 40 years. The counts—published annually by the Hawk Mountain Sanctuary Association—reveal great increases in most kinds of hawks during the DDT years. The osprey counts increased as follows: in 1946, 191; in 1956, 288; in 1967, 457; and in 1972, 630.13 In 1942 Dr. Joseph Hickey—who in 1968 would blame DDT for bird population decline—reported that 70 per-cent of the eastern osprey population had been killed by pole traps around fish hatcheries.14 That same year, before DDT came into use, Hickey noted a decline in the population of peregrine falcons.15

Other observers also documented that the great peregrine decline in the eastern United States occurred long before any DDT was present in the environment.16,17 In Canada peregrines were observed to be “reproducing normally” in the 1960s even though their tissues contained 30 times more DDT than did the tissues of the midwestern peregrines allegedly being extirpated by the chemical.18 And in Great Britain, in 1969, a three-year government study noted that the decline of peregrine falcons in Britain had ended in 1966 even though DDT levels were as abundant as ever. The British study concluded that “There is no close correlation between the decline in population of predatory birds, particularly the peregrine falcon and the sparrow hawk, and the use of DDT.”19

In addition, later research refuted the original studies that had pointed to DDT as a cause for eggshell thinning. After reassessing their findings using more modern methodology, Drs. Hickey and Anderson admitted that the egg extracts they had studied contained little or no DDT and said they were now pursuing PCBs, chemicals used as capacitor insulators, as the culprit.20

When carefully reviewed, Dr. Bitman’s study revealed that the quail in the study were fed a diet with a calcium content of only 0.56 percent (a normal quail diet consists of 2.7 percent calcium). Calcium deficiency is a known cause of thin eggshells.21–23 After much criticism, Bitman repeated the test, this time with sufficient calcium levels. The birds produced eggs without thinned shells.24

After many years of carefully controlled feeding experiments, Dr. M. L. Scott and associates of the Department of Poultry Science at Cornell University “found no tremors, no mortality, no thinning of eggshells and no interference with reproduction caused by levels of DDT which were as high as those reported to be present in most of the wild birds where ‘catastrophic’ decreases in shell quality and reproduction have been claimed.”23 In fact, thinning eggshells can have many causes, including season of the year, nutrition (in particular insufficient calcium, phosphorus, vitamin D, and manganese), temperature rise, type of soil, and breeding conditions (e.g., sunlight and crowding).25

 

[King Darkness]

Words

 

[devilof76]

Hundreds of millions dead?

Oops. Reported cases are at that level. Apparently the death rate is only about a million plus per year.

https://www.acsh.org/healthissues/newsid.442/healthissue_detail.asp

 

[barryo]

Words

bird words.............CA-CAW !!!!!

 

[King Darkness]

bird words.............CA-CAW !!!!!

Ca-caw...hehe...kahkah....get it...kah caw....ahhh...good times


devilof76 is such a buzz kill.

 

[FLOSI]

Anyone want me to PM them a photo of my Chagas?

 

[King Darkness]

STFU ButtFlosi. No one likes you

 

[thenammagazine]

No, you're thinking of bird kills. Those occur suddenly and are linked to a single, traumatic event.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bird_kill

In the case of DDT, bird populations, particularly of raptors, began to decline quite rapidly, to the point of many becoming nearly extinct. When DDT was banned, most of these species made a come back.

But does anybody know if DDT was the actual cause and not some sort of natural explanation? Anything I've found has been straight-up circumstantial.