Civil War

[Shai]

In the end Civil War ruined Spider-Man, Cap, and Iron Man.

I now have no reason to buy any Marvel book.

What about Hulk ?

 

[Icemizer]

Well this ended up being utter drivel. Another stellar effort destined to go down in Marvel history with such great works as Atlantis Attacks, Operation Galactic Storm, Secret War II, and the Evolutionairy War. Marvel may indeed be the house of ideas, but they suck at getting those ideas down in comic form.

Can anyone explain why Captain America was crying at the end? Anyone? This man fought through WWII and no doubt saw horrors that would shake any man to his soul. Yet being grabbed by some fireman and policeman reduces this proud symbol of America to tears.

Now I can see a good and solid reason for Cap to actually change his mind and surrender. It wasnt presented in the comic but I could see it.
"As Cap is about to bring his shield down on Stark and end the battle he pauses just long enough to glance around. He sees horrors worse than any he has seen before. Heroes lay broken and killed(yes killed) about the battle field. Some walk in a daze. Others still battle inflicting terrible damage upon one another. Firemen and policemen struggle to help civilians caught in the carnage. Finally Cap sees a mother holding a bloody blanket to her chest, a crushed baby buggy to her side, she cries and wails rocking back and forth. A look of shock on his face, Cap slowly lowers his shield and surrenders." This would have been a much more powerful ending to the story. One where Cap realizes he made a mistake. Internal conflict always has more power than external.

But we get Cap crying. Horrible!!!!!!

 

[Bonehead15]

What about Hulk ?

Since Hulk has been gone I really don't feel his character suffered at all.

In fact Hulk probably ended up the best. The Planet Hulk storyline has been great.

Let's face it if Hulk was on either one of these sides, Cap or Tony would be dead. Banner don't take crap from nobody. I tend to think he'd side with Cap but who knows.

 

[rogueboy]

Can anyone explain why Captain America was crying at the end? Anyone? This man fought through WWII and no doubt saw horrors that would shake any man to his soul. Yet being grabbed by some fireman and policeman reduces this proud symbol of America to tears.

Actually, I think it was because the commen men (like the fireman and policeman), for who's freedom he fought his entire life, grabbed him because they felt he was wrong. That's what triggered him.

 

[Anton Phibes]

That's about how I feel as well.

This ending sucked.

I thought DC's Crisis series weren't fabulous but at least in the end I wasn't absolutely pi$$ed. Civil War was very entertaining, much more than DC's recent crossovers, but that doesn't matter if the story ends so badly like this. The momentum was just killed with Cap's conclusion.

In the end Civil War ruined Spider-Man, Cap, and Iron Man.

I now have no reason to buy any Marvel book.

Wow. For a guy who calls himself Bonehead, you seem to have given a brilliant summation of exactly why Civil War was terrible. I wholeheartedly agree. Furthermore, the story itself wouldn't work at all if the Hulk and Nick Fury had been around. Hulk would've just smashed anybody he thought was trying to exercise control over him and Nick could've talked Captain America down, being from his generation, and also his lifelong friend. Either that or Nick could've talked the president down. Nick Fury is like General MacArthur...he could talk anybody down. Even Wolverine respects him.

That's why Nick "disappeared" and Hulk was shot into space. With Thor gone, these were the only two elements/problems left to consider besides Dr. Strange. Who went on a "fast" and played Switzerland in this ordeal. Loki owes Spider-man a "boon" from the JMS run. Let's hope that "boon" is to put the genie back in the bottle about the unmasking. Its Spider-man's only hope.

Iron Man is a horse of a different color. I will forever feel as if I am reading an issue of Super Villain Team Up when I read his book now. Millar wrote him so terribly. You know how Bruce Wayne goes out of his way to make people think he is an unbearable goofy snob? This is how Millar wrote Tony's actual personality in Civil War. The character is ruined very much in the same fashion as DC ruined Hal Jordan all of those years ago when they drove him mad. Years later, realizing their mistake, they gave the assignment of restoring Hal to someone who loved what he used to be. Yet the taint is still there. Iron Man is now forever tainted.

Captain America. This is the characterization I am having the most trouble with. Captain America isn't a crybaby. Captain America doesn't quit. Captain America would give his life for what he views as right. Captain America is the last vestige of a the greatest American generation. Now he is in prison and his view is shown to be wrong. Despite the fact that Tony's group was being shown as the heavies throughout the whole series. The "bad guys" won, and Captain Ameirca (who represents the values of our greatest generation of Americans) is viewed as an unwelcome reminder of morals that the "New America" doesn't embrace. With some work, Captain America can be restored. Yet its going to take a while. Fortunately for us, Ed Brubaker is a wonderful storyteller with a terrific mind. He fixed Bendis's Daredevil mess. He wrote a terrific history of Dr. Doom. He is an exquisite talent and he has a respect for Captain America. If anyone can fix this Civil War crapfest...it's him.

 

[The ill Jedi]

Well this ended up being utter drivel. Another stellar effort destined to go down in Marvel history with such great works as Atlantis Attacks, Operation Galactic Storm, Secret War II, and the Evolutionairy War. Marvel may indeed be the house of ideas, but they suck at getting those ideas down in comic form.

Can anyone explain why Captain America was crying at the end? Anyone? This man fought through WWII and no doubt saw horrors that would shake any man to his soul. Yet being grabbed by some fireman and policeman reduces this proud symbol of America to tears.

Now I can see a good and solid reason for Cap to actually change his mind and surrender. It wasnt presented in the comic but I could see it.
"As Cap is about to bring his shield down on Stark and end the battle he pauses just long enough to glance around. He sees horrors worse than any he has seen before. Heroes lay broken and killed(yes killed) about the battle field. Some walk in a daze. Others still battle inflicting terrible damage upon one another. Firemen and policemen struggle to help civilians caught in the carnage. Finally Cap sees a mother holding a bloody blanket to her chest, a crushed baby buggy to her side, she cries and wails rocking back and forth. A look of shock on his face, Cap slowly lowers his shield and surrenders." This would have been a much more powerful ending to the story. One where Cap realizes he made a mistake. Internal conflict always has more power than external.

But we get Cap crying. Horrible!!!!!!

You have no idea what you're talking about. What, a whole section of the city and dead bodies (civilians as well as fellow heroes) are everywhere and that isn't enough to constitute how upset Cap was? He's a a human being first and a soldier second, not a damn robot. Oh and the reason it bothered him so much was that he had a part in the destruction on the soil of his home country!

 

[The ill Jedi]

I'm gonna guess that all of you that disliked the ending are big Steven Seagal and Jean Claude Van Damme movie fans. Lord forbid a hero feel any kind of remorse and not just destroy/kill for the sake of destroying/killing. Now that would make a story suck!

 

[Fritz]

I finally picked up the final books I was waiting for yesterday. Time to start reading.

 

[Anton Phibes]

I'm gonna guess that all of you fools that disliked the ending are big Steven Seagal and Jean Claude Van Damme movie fans. Lord forbid a hero feel any kind of remorse and not just destroy/kill for the sake of destroying/killing. Now that would make a story suck!

First of all, not everyone who disagrees with you and expresses a difference of opinion is a "fool". Second, Steven Who and Jean who? Captain America is a soldier first and foremost. Second he is the comic book equivalent of the WW2 generation. The generation that answered the call of duty when it came, rationed goods, rolled up their sleeves...and brought the war to a close. To make him out to be unsure of himself and his actions undermines his personality...it doesn't make it deeper. Killing? No, Captain America shouldn't have killed Iron Man. Remorse? Could've been handled better. It was rushed and hurried and it was 6 issues of fighting and 2 pages of "whoops". The bigger disaster of Civil War wasn't the damage to New York, it was the damage to a lot of fine characters.

As far as Captain America crying in public like a little girl...I think its stupid. Having remorse, and letting your emotions out...that's fine. But not in front of a group of people who admire and respect you. Would you lose respect for Clint Eastwood's characters if he wept in front of the enemy and his fellow riders? I would. Yet I have no problem with his remorse and private weeping in the Outlaw Josey Wales. Captain America is more like Audey Murphy or John Wayne. He doesn't have to snap everyone's neck like the Punisher. He also doesn't have to cry like a school girl in front of his troops. It costs him respect. Much like a drill instructor would lose all of his respect if he broke down in front of his men at boot camp.

Mark Millar doesn't have what it takes to write Captain America...in my opinion. Ed Brubaker does. Brubaker gets Captain America. So did Frank Miller. Read Born Again in Daredevil. It's Daredevil's book. Yet there is a line in it that sent chills up my spine when I read it. "He(cap) speaks with a voice that could command a god...and does. There's a reason why Thor follows Captain America's lead. There's a reason why Namor follows Captain America's lead. There's a reason why Spider-man switched sides. The reason is Captain America. On Marvel Fanfare #18's cover Cap is shown holding a flag and a single tear is going down his face. It was symbolic of the emotion of the story. Read that story. He doesn't break down in public...and its awesome. Some people get Cap and some do not. Millar does not...in my opinion.

Not trying to start a fight here...but I have been a huge Captain America fan for the last 25 years and this is a really bitter pill to swallow. Civil War ended terribly because it was rushed and poorly written throughout. But the art was out of this world. Kudos to McNiven.

 

[The ill Jedi]

First of all, not everyone who disagrees with you and expresses a difference of opinion is a "fool". Second, Steven Who and Jean who? Captain America is a soldier first and foremost. Second he is the comic book equivalent of the WW2 generation. The generation that answered the call of duty when it came, rationed goods, rolled up their sleeves...and brought the war to a close. To make him out to be unsure of himself and his actions undermines his personality...it doesn't make it deeper. Killing? No, Captain America shouldn't have killed Iron Man. Remorse? Could've been handled better. It was rushed and hurried and it was 6 issues of fighting and 2 pages of "whoops". The bigger disaster of Civil War wasn't the damage to New York, it was the damage to a lot of fine characters.

As far as Captain America crying in public like a little girl...I think its stupid. Having remorse, and letting your emotions out...that's fine. But not in front of a group of people who admire and respect you. Would you lose respect for Clint Eastwood's characters if he wept in front of the enemy and his fellow riders? I would. Yet I have no problem with his remorse and private weeping in the Outlaw Josey Wales. Captain America is more like Audey Murphy or John Wayne. He doesn't have to snap everyone's neck like the Punisher. He also doesn't have to cry like a school girl in front of his troops.

Edited the 'fools' part, I was a little upset.

I understand what you're saying, but it's not like he was sobbing aloud and uncontrollably. The man shed some tears, he was upset that he felt he had a hand in the destruction and that he was no longer fighting for the country he loves, he was just fighting.

 

[Anton Phibes]

Edited the 'fools' part, I was a little upset.

I understand what you're saying, but it's not like he was sobbing aloud and uncontrollably. The man shed some tears, he was upset that he felt he had a hand in the destruction and that he was no longer fighting for the country he loves, he was just fighting.

That's cool. For the record, I think this is the part that was rushed. If it would have been handled a little differently and given more pages with which to properly display his grief it would have been different. Captain America is a legend, not just continuity wise, but in reality. In the comics while he was fighting Hitler, our troops were doing the same in real life. He was stamped "essential" in a time of rationing of all goods including paper. As was Plastic Man. Plastic Man brought humor...Cap brought inspiration.

I could've handled Cap sobbing aloud...at home or at Arlington. It just cut me to the quick that he went from dancing on Tony's chest to Mr. Misty eyes in a couple panels. In an age of extremely decompressed story telling, where it takes Bendis 17 issues to ask Aunt May to pass the butter at breakfast, it seemed very forced rushed and overly compressed to have Cap break like this. Nice chatting with you, but what do you think about the damage that's been done to Iron Man?

 

[Bardoon]

I liked the ending and thought it was pretty appropriate. Though I think the internal conflict description by Icemizer would've helped sum up how Cap felt. Ultimately it was up to one of them realizing that they were becoming no better than the villains they all try to defeat and it was Cap who realized that.

I completely disagree with the comment about Millar not knowing how to write Captain America. If anything, he built upon what Brubaker had started, bringing Captain America into a more interesting character. He's also become more pro-active which I like to see and is not just some "tool" for the US government. He's become edgier and more interesting a la Millar's Ultimate Cap.

This isn't exactly the same, but does anyone have any complaints about how Millar wrote up ULTIMATE Captain America? He is truly the bad-@$$ US super-soldier he is meant to be.

I actually don't think any damage has been done to Iron Man.I actually think it is a great progression of the character.Now he's Director of SHIELD and I wouldn't be surprised if we have a whole "Tony Stark for President" story arc in the near future.The man is a hero to the Marvel public and that's how they'll see him...why else did the firemen,police,etc. stop Cap?

I think Millar did a superb job with CIVIL WAR.He is one of Marvel's best writers and I've been very impressed with his work (especially the ULTIMATES..one of the best series ever).

I haven't been this interested in the regular 616 Marvel characters in a long time. Back in the 90's it was all about the X-Books for Marvel and no one would bat an eyelash at Cap,Iron Man,the Avengers,FF,etc. remember Heroes Reborn and that?Marvel was struggling to get these characters some attention and I think they have finally done it...I think there's more of a spotlight on these characters than there ever has been.Thanks Marvel for making them interesting again.

 

[Anton Phibes]

Ultimately it was up to one of them realizing that they were becoming no better than the villains they all try to defeat and it was Cap who realized that.

I completely disagree with the comment about Millar not knowing how to write Captain America. If anything, he built upon what Brubaker had started, bringing Captain America into a more interesting character. He's also become more pro-active which I like to see and is not just some "tool" for the US government. He's become edgier and more interesting a la Millar's Ultimate Cap.

This isn't exactly the same, but does anyone have any complaints about how Millar wrote up ULTIMATE Captain America? He is truly the bad-@$$ US super-soldier he is meant to be.

I actually don't think any damage has been done to Iron Man.I actually think it is a great progression of the character.Now he's Director of SHIELD and I wouldn't be surprised if we have a whole "Tony Stark for President" story arc in the near future.The man is a hero to the Marvel public and that's how they'll see him...why else did the firemen,police,etc. stop Cap?

I think Millar did a superb job with CIVIL WAR.He is one of Marvel's best writers and I've been very impressed with his work (especially the ULTIMATES..one of the best series ever).

I haven't been this interested in the regular 616 Marvel characters in a long time. Back in the 90's it was all about the X-Books for Marvel and no one would bat an eyelash at Cap,Iron Man,the Avengers,FF,etc. remember Heroes Reborn and that?Marvel was struggling to get these characters some attention and I think they have finally done it...I think there's more of a spotlight on these characters than there ever has been.Thanks Marvel for making them interesting again.

Tony's side should have been the ones to realize they were wrong imho. They were written like the "bad guys" all along including "drafting" Venom, Taskmaster, Green Goblin, etc. into their ranks. Not to mention Clor and the death of Bill Foster, the attack stance on Cap to begin with and chasing Spidey down even after he registered just because he no longer agreed with Stark and co.'s ideas. Dr. Doom would be proud.

Its perfectly fine that you disagree about Millar. More power to you. I don't like his writing on Captain America, and I am actually hard pressed to think of anything he has written that I do like. I don't like Ultimates at all for a variety of different reasons that I will not go into right now. Except the art. Its well drawn. I have no idea what you are referencing with the Cap being a "tool" statement. You are one of the few people I have heard state that they feel no damage has been done to Iron Man. I suppose time will tell. Consider this, however.....not everybody likes the same things. I cannot stand oysters, caviar or lobster. Some folks love that stuff. They are more than welcome to eat as much as they want. But I am not having any.

 

[Fritz]

Well I started reading in chronological order and I'm up to June and Civil War #2 tonight. I'm anti-registration but pro Stark so we'll see how it goes. Anway, I can see why Hulk's not going to be in a very good mood.

 

[Bardoon]

Tony's side should have been the ones to realize they were wrong imho. They were written like the "bad guys" all along including "drafting" Venom, Taskmaster, Green Goblin, etc. into their ranks. Not to mention Clor and the death of Bill Foster, the attack stance on Cap to begin with and chasing Spidey down even after he registered just because he no longer agreed with Stark and co.'s ideas. Dr. Doom would be proud.

Its perfectly fine that you disagree about Millar. More power to you. I don't like his writing on Captain America, and I am actually hard pressed to think of anything he has written that I do like. I don't like Ultimates at all for a variety of different reasons that I will not go into right now. Except the art. Its well drawn. I have no idea what you are referencing with the Cap being a "tool" statement. You are one of the few people I have heard state that they feel no damage has been done to Iron Man. I suppose time will tell. Consider this, however.....not everybody likes the same things. I cannot stand oysters, caviar or lobster. Some folks love that stuff. They are more than welcome to eat as much as they want. But I am not having any.

To each their own my friend. :chew I was just offering up another slice of opinion here.

By Cap being a "tool" I should've been more clear.I suppose "agent" (of the government) or "military super-soldier representative of the US" (and US government) may have been more accurate.

 

[Anton Phibes]

To each their own my friend. :chew I was just offering up another slice of opinion here.

By Cap being a "tool" I should've been more clear.I suppose "agent" (of the government) or "military super-soldier representative of the US" (and US government) may have been more accurate.

I cannot help my opinions either. I am a classic comic nerd for better or worse. I have seen a lot of stories over the years that have made me annoyed. It will be interesting to see where Captain America goes from here. I hope its not downhill. Because Cap has been the epitome of hope and optimism in the face of the most dire circumstances. Spider-man is a close second, even though he seems to get the poopy end of the stick a lot. Its going to take me a long time to not hate Iron Man because I felt he was written like a bad guy in Civil War.

 

[Bonehead15]

It will be interesting to see where Captain America goes from here. I hope its not downhill. Because Cap has been the epitome of hope and optimism in the face of the most dire circumstances. Spider-man is a close second, even though he seems to get the poopy end of the stick a lot. Its going to take me a long time to not hate Iron Man because I felt he was written like a bad guy in Civil War.

Yep. I agree.

Like I said earlier in this thread:

In the end Civil War ruined Spider-Man, Cap, and Iron Man.

 

[Fritz]

Civil War Visual Guide updated March 2nd...

https://www.marvel.com/news/comicstories.766

 

[316what]

Civil War Visual Guide updated March 2nd...

https://www.marvel.com/news/comicstories.766

Stealing my thunder I see.

 

[Fritz]

Stealing my thunder I see.

Stop laying down on the job!