Dear Dave... About this one part in the Customs Commerce rules -

[CREG Customs]

From THIS

a) INTEREST - This is a thread an artist or an artist commissioner will start to gauge interest to see if it's worthwhile to pursue a project. There must be a clear and timely likelihood of the project being executed. Do not publish an "Interest" thread that is just a wish of what you'd like to see. It is expected that if the interest reaches the level the artist set with the first post that the project will be executed. It is against the rules of the forum for any money to change hands if delivery is expected to take longer than 30 days.

Can the above be adjusted to allow deposits?

It seems a little unreasonable for a sculptor to gain interest and move ahead from nothing to full sculpt to all copies produced in a 30 day turn around.

Some sculptors need/require deposits to garner serious interest and not 300 people saying "I want one" to back out when the item is released.

If these were mass produced then the loss of sales could be absorbed but in small run items it can make a big difference.

Please consider this.

Any other sculptors / collectors - please tell me if you agree or think this is uncalled for.

Thanks,

Dean
CREG Customs

p.s. I am the first to admit my sale of the Bale heads to completion have taken way too long in spite of the issues that came up. This is in no way a defense about that but about future projects for not only myself but other sculptors as well. Thank you.

 

[intothevoid]

FULLY support your point Dean. I think 30 days is much too restrictive. Perhaps 90 days is reasonable.

 

[galactiboy]

I think this is done in order to give customers time w/in Paypals limits to file a claim.

90 days is double the amount of time someone has to file a claim and as we found out with the Howe's debaucle even deposits on some items can add up to a lot.

 

[Tekkaman Blade]

Yeah after Howe's I'd go with 30-35 days as well, after that if I hadn't delt with a person before, I'd file a claim, or have to have a long talk with the person.

 

[EVILFACE]

I'd agree with GB and TB, the timeframe is to cover the buyer from getting Howes'd.

 

[intothevoid]

Well why not stretch it to the 45 days at least (is that the paypal limit)?

Also, in my view the 30 day rule should only apply once FULL payment has been sent, not from when an initial deposit is sent

 

[Reinhardt]

I'd agree with GB and TB, the timeframe is to cover the buyer from getting Howes'd.

Hilarious (and frustrating) that that's a verb now...

 

[CREG Customs]

I see your point about buyer protection but I'm telling you it will limit some projects form ever being completed IMO.

Besides - should it not be up to the buyer to "risk" the investment if they choose to? One con-man ruins the whole process now?

 

[intothevoid]

Yeah .. 'you can't give in' lol

 

[TheObsoleteMan]

Besides - should it not be up to the buyer to "risk" the investment if they choose to? One con-man ruins the whole process now?

I've always believed that risk is part of the game when you dabble in customs, but to be fair, it has been more than just one person that's flaked out and left people hanging. Luckily, most of the new artists that have come along have been very reliable, it just seems to be some of the older members who have trouble meeting their responsibilities.

 

[galactiboy]

Well why not stretch it to the 45 days at least (is that the paypal limit)?

Also, in my view the 30 day rule should only apply once FULL payment has been sent, not from when an initial deposit is sent

I see the point about lessening the risk, but if 30 people all loose $10 on a head that's still $300 and getting into felony territory. And usually deposits are higher meaning the potential lost is greater.

45 days would mean zero cushion for filing a claim IMO, so not really much better.

I see your point about buyer protection but I'm telling you it will limit some projects form ever being completed IMO.

Besides - should it not be up to the buyer to "risk" the investment if they choose to? One con-man ruins the whole process now?

Agreed, some projects might not happen... but risk can be shared both ways. Some sculptors will take the risk of making a head completely w/o any promise of getting buyers. So they risk time, money etc. in the process. But if they have a finished head and the ability to cast it there should not be as much of a risk of not completing it in 30 days.

Its not like this rule can be 100% enforced anyway, so I'm sure someone could "risk" breaking it and see if anything comes of it I know for the work you cast the heads took a bit longer to get out, but I didn't hear a lot of complaints or calls for refunds since you were working it out... I'd assume this is how it would generally go if someone was unable to meet the expected 30 deadline.

And sadly one man didn't ruin it... its happened time and time again and continues to happen. I don't think this is a rule that is directed at any singler person, but it is designed to hopefully lessen the chance of a custom project completely going south along with a lot of money.

I've always believed that risk is part of the game when you dabble in customs, but to be fair, it has been more than just one person that's flaked out and left people hanging. Luckily, most of the new artists that have come along have been very reliable, it just seems to be some of the older members who have trouble meeting their responsibilities.

Although it is helpful to keep in mind those "older members" were consistent and had quick turn arounds at one point only to fall further and further behind. I don't think anyone is immune from being overworked or having life get in the way of work... but having stricter guidelines can help avoid it.

 

[Buttmunch]

If a sculptor can't cover the cost of clay to sculpt a head, they probably shouldn't be selling their work in the first place. 30 days is more than reasonable if they are ready to cast. If its not ready to cast, its not ready to sell either.

 

[ones1customs]

If a sculptor can't cover the cost of clay to sculpt a head, they probably shouldn't be selling their work in the first place. 30 days is more than reasonable if they are ready to cast. If its not ready to cast, its not ready to sell either.

It's a little more complicated than just covering the cost of clay Specially for an artist or customizer. An artist has to take time away from other projects which even more money is invested deposits help allow the artist to continue working on the piece in which he is beginning basically time is money and in order to continue working deposits must be made might seem unfair or whatever but it is what it is and it's not just clay, resin, silicone it's all very expensive your not gonna wait for full payments to start casting you're gonna want everything ready beforehand specially artist who offers 50 heads or more that's quite a feat if you're 1 person at least this is my perspective I might be wrong as far as other artist

 

[The Craw]

leave the rule like it is. i've put down deposits for customs before and have nothing to show for it. i like how customizers on this board think they run the show.

 

[Darklord Dave]

I see your point about buyer protection but I'm telling you it will limit some projects form ever being completed IMO.

Besides - should it not be up to the buyer to "risk" the investment if they choose to? One con-man ruins the whole process now?

Despite all the disclaimers that the forum has no responsibility for any transactions here, everyone came looking to me to help in solving the Howes debacle.

I posted at that time that deposits and/or group projects were not allowed and if someone wanted to commission it - then a single commissioner needs to foot the bill and then sell it once completed. The commissioner can also be the artist. I don't think that's unreasonable.

Of course, if it's clothing - then a significant outlay may be needed by the artist to get started - so a deposit is more reasonable.

And, as always, it's your money - if you choose to send money against the advice of this forum and good sense - it's your money to blow.

 

[ProgMatinee]

Artists need to gut it up or get a loan. Asking your customers to fit your bill early is BS. If one can't afford the $50 in casting material, how can they be trusted at all to not defer all deposits to something else entirely? If you're running that thin then this probably aint the business for you.

Here is a tip. Make a project on your dime. Sell it. Put profit in coffers, use to fund next project. Sell it. Put profit in coffers, use to fund next profit. Sell it. Eventually you actualy have a legitimate cash positive business that doesn't rely on kiting your customers money around.

Said as nicely as possible from my iBlunt.

 

[Buttmunch]

It's a little more complicated than just covering the cost of clay Specially for an artist or customizer. An artist has to take time away from other projects which even more money is invested deposits help allow the artist to continue working on the piece in which he is beginning basically time is money and in order to continue working deposits must be made might seem unfair or whatever but it is what it is and it's not just clay, resin, silicone it's all very expensive your not gonna wait for full payments to start casting you're gonna want everything ready beforehand specially artist who offers 50 heads or more that's quite a feat if you're 1 person at least this is my perspective I might be wrong as far as other artist

When you start a new job, generally they don't pre-pay you for work you may do. You gotta work before they start paying you. I don't see why a sculptor should be any different. If there work is good, people will pay them. If not, then again, maybe this isn't for them. Blind NRD are BS IMO. If the interest is there then people will buy your work if it is good.

Artists need to gut it up or get a loan. Asking your customers to fit your bill early is BS. If one can't afford the $50 in casting material, how can they be trusted at all to not defer all deposits to something else entirely? If you're running that thin then this probably aint the business for you.

Here is a tip. Make a project on your dime. Sell it. Put profit in coffers, use to fund next project. Sell it. Put profit in coffers, use to fund next profit. Sell it. Eventually you actualy have a legitimate cash positive business that doesn't rely on kiting your customers money around.

Said as nicely as possible from my iBlunt.

Not every sculpt needs to be comissioned. Some of the best things on here aren't. Elvis' work stands out for that reason. He makes figures he wants to make. He may sell them later, but he wasn't comissioned to make them, and frankly it shows. Figures always end up better if made for the passion and not the money.

 

[ProgMatinee]

When I worked in the banking industry it was my business customers who came in and cashed the check the day it was issued that were the ones most likely to need their account closed because they failed. If this is you, be advised that failure is immenent. The solution is not to grab as much cash from people as possible increasing your liabilities. You need to look into what you're doing wrong and fix it.

 

[ones1customs]

When you start a new job, generally they don't pre-pay you for work you may do. You gotta work before they start paying you. I don't see why a sculptor should be any different. If there work is good, people will pay them. If not, then again, maybe this isn't for them. Blind NRD are BS IMO. If the interest is there then people will buy your work if it is good.



Not every sculpt needs to be comissioned. Some of the best things on here aren't. Elvis' work stands out for that reason. He makes figures he wants to make. He may sell them later, but he wasn't comissioned to make them, and frankly it shows. Figures always end up better if made for the passion and not the money.

Hey im not saying I agree with it thats just how it is for some artists unfortunately. I myself prefer having a actually product inhand to sell first the profit is stronger but Ive also done things the other way so I know how that goes aswell the longer you take the further the money is stretched its feels like working for minimum wage or even for free thats why with my newest offering I havent taken a cent and wont be til I have product ready to go. Keep the rules the way the are safer for both the artist and customer. BTW some of Elvis's best work have been commissioned pieces just saying.

 

[Darklord Dave]

Hey im not saying I agree with it thats just how it is for some artists unfortunately. I myself prefer having a actually product inhand to sell first the profit is stronger but Ive also done things the other way so I know how that goes aswell the longer you take the further the money is stretched its feels like working for minimum wage or even for free thats why with my newest offering I havent taken a cent and wont be til I have product ready to go. Keep the rules the way the are safer for both the artist and customer. BTW some of Elvis's best work have been commissioned pieces just saying.

Money for work is an incentive - if you have some of the money up front, you have less of an incentive I've found. And if you have all of the money up front you have no incentive at all.

At least for some people that's how it works. If I was sitting on someone's money then I'd be more incentivized, but we have seen from many, many incidents on this forum - that is not the case for most people.