FIFA World Cup 2014

[RobertoBagg10]

Personally, I'd have given the Golden Ball to Neuer, Robben, and even Schweinsteiger ahead of Messi. In the case of Schweinsteiger, he typified the German spirit and was outstanding in the final. In fact, I'd give him the Golden Ball for his performance in the final alone. He was bloodied and bruised numerous times, but continued on and played until the end.

Another great shout for golden ball winner!

 

[Lejuan]

F&@k Robben, he's a filthy diver. It'd be a disgrace for him to finish ahead of Messi for any gong.

 

[RobertoBagg10]

Just before extra-time:

View attachment 120483

WOW!!! great pic! I never even saw this happen during the match! I rest my case! Messi is no captain but then again maybe I'm being a little harsh on him as its the manager who chooses the captain. However, this picture alone proves everything there is to know about Messi...when the going gets tough Messi disappears! In the words of Yoda

What a great post Andy. Agreed in all accounts.

And yes, Maradona remains untouchable. Best the world has ever seen.

Thanks my friend...

 

[axecutioner18]

See its easy to sit back and choose your favourites.

I already posted links to the whole stat analysis. Which is what the award is based on when FIFA gives it. BTW The Award is not chosen by FIFA but media representatives of each competing country who are in charge of stat management.

If you think Messi only took Argentina past Iran, may I ask who took them past Bosnia, Nigeria, Switzerland?? Maybe you saw only the goal and judge him by it. But stats dont lie. Messi has the highest chance creation over everyone, inspite of being heavily marked. Is it his fault if Aguero, Higuain and Palacio cant score?

And where did Maradona or Pele come into the picture?

I was talking about justifying Messi winning the Golden Ball...

 

[RobertoBagg10]

See its easy to sit back and choose your favourites.

I already posted links to the whole stat analysis. Which is what the award is based on when FIFA gives it. BTW The Award is not chosen by FIFA but media representatives of each competing country who are in charge of stat management.

If you think Messi only took Argentina past Iran, may I ask who took them past Bosnia, Nigeria, Switzerland?? Maybe you saw only the goal and judge him by it. But stats dont lie. Messi has the highest chance creation over everyone, inspite of being heavily marked. Is it his fault if Aguero, Higuain and Palacio cant score?

Its easy to sit back and choose your favourites? I don't understand how this relates to the debate


Anywat, my points were basically covering how I felt that Messi did not deserve the Golden ball at this years World Cup...do you still think he deserved to win it? Honestly?

I also covered how Messi will never ever be better than Diego Maradona and finally I also covered how I felt that Messi was not a one man team in this Argentina squad given the epic displays of both Mascherano and the Argentinian goalkeeper, who I thought had a great tournament...plus I felt that Messi failed miserably as a captain in my opinion.

Its easy to defend Messi by blaming others such as Higuain (who is useless anyway) Aguero (who probably wasn't match fit or still recovering from his injury) and Palacio (who clearly cannot cut it at international level) but was it not Messi who failed to convert a relatively clear cut opportunity (even by his amazing standard) in the second half of the Final?

I watched all the games and still don't think this Argentina team was single handedly carried by one man, that's just my opinion of course so your entitled to think otherwise. Thing that frustrates me with Messi is that he very rarely, if ever, chases for the ball or closes down defenders when not in possession. I was watching him closely in the Final and he constantly allowed the german defenders to casually dribble the ball past him whilst he strolled around expecting his team mates to do the running. Even Ronaldo chases the ball or at least looks interested to put pressure on the defenders! The Final was Messi's chance to show everyone what he's been doing at club level and that he doesn't need to soley rely on players like Xabi, Iniesta, Pedro, etc...to make him play well....however, he failed miserably! As I mentioned in my previous post, it was Lavezzi who actually played with hunger and desire in the first half...infact, anyone would've thought it was Messi but it wasn't

I see you are into your Stats...well my eyes don't lie and despite Messi starting the competition off well with his goals all coming in the group stage, his performances began to diminish in the knockout stages, a time when his country needed him the most. Mediocre against Switzerland and Belgium (despite setting up the goal for Di Maria) totally non existent against the Dutch and arguably even worse against the Germans. Listen, I'm not here to slate Messi its just that sometimes you have to watch the game for what it is and not just have a clipboard in your hand ticking off the number of times Messi passes or shoots or sets up a chance. I think 8 out of 10 football fans will admit that he totally underachieved in this tournament and his performances in both the Semis and the Final was totally below par.

I've said it before and i'll say it again, he's a great player but put him in a team with average joe's and he's totally ineffective...hence why you'll never see him in the Premiership, Serie A or the Bundesliga. Why would he move? In Barcelona he's found the winning formula that gets the best out of his game and that is to have the best players around him in the same team and boy is it working! He's breaking records left right and centre...however, at international level its a different story and THAT is why he'll never be a true champion like Maradona was.

Again, you'd also have to add that even Cristiano Ronaldo has proved his talents at both Manchester United and now Real Madrid...you have to ask yourself, would Messi be as prolific as he is playing for Barcelona if he played for a team like Arsenal for example?

 

[RagingBull]

I will certainly respect your opinion and that you are obviously a huge Messi fan, so rightly you want to defend the decision that he deserved player of the tournament...but in all seriousness, even Messi looked a little embarrassed as he walked up the steps to collect the trophy. As others have mentioned, him winning the golden boot was totally down to marketing...we are talking about FIFA here! That enough should explain everything You also went on to show us previous winners of the golden boot from past tournaments...I would also agree that all of these winners did not deserve to win the trophy either...Zidane winning it in 2006 was just as bad a decision than it was awarding it to Messi for this years tournament imo! The golden boot in 2006 should have gone to Fabio Cannavaro. Same with Forlan in 2010 when it should have been maybe David Villa.

Messi is a great player...arguably one of the worlds best in the present day...I say that respectfully due to a certain Cristiano Ronaldo who this year has been phenomenal. However, put these two players in teams which do not have the financial resources such as Barcelona or Real Madrid and they will struggle to show any of the form that they have shown us over the past few seasons. This conclusion is apparent when they play for their national teams. They are both clearly above any of their fellow international team mates in regards to ability and hence why they constantly appear to look frustrated when their team mates are not on the same wave length. Yes, you will get the odd glimmer of individual brilliance as we saw with some of Messi's goals in the World Cup and by Ronaldo's solo performance in the World Cup play off game vs Sweden but these visions of brilliance are few and far between when wearing the shirts of their countries.

Going back to Messi, he is often compared to one Diego Maradona. Of couse he would be, the comparisons are there to be seen, he's Argentinian, he's left footed, he has a low sense of gravity, his ability to dribble past defenders, blah, blah, blah....however, the one claim that I cannot agree on is that he was better than Maradona! In my opinion, aswell as thousands and thousands of Argentinians is that Messi will never be better and I agree 100%. Maradona will always be the greatest player that has ever lived! No-one will ever reach his ability! My point earlier of how Messi and Ronaldo struggle to discover the form they show us at club level, well Maradona did this for both club and country despite being head and shoulders over all his team mates. He was so good that he literally controlled his teams single handedly...the team played for him, they adored him and would do anything on the field for him. Messi was the captain of Argentina, when do you ever hear his rally cry to his team mates? I didn't see any passion at all from him...and he's supposed to be the captain? Do me a favour! Mascherano showed more passion in his little finger than what Messi did...look when they went a goal down in the final, the camera panned towards Messi and instead of gathering his players around and remind them all about where they are and what this final means to them for the last 10 minutes, what does he do? He flicks his hair and looks to the ground as if he doesn't give a monkeys....hmmmm....and he is said to be better than Maradona? Maradona was leaps and bounds ahead of all his team mates both at club level (Napoli) and internationally, yet what you saw from him during the 89/90 Serie A season with Napoli and the 1986 World Cup will never be repeated again by any player...and all this when in those days, free kicks were not given for the slightest touch. You see Messi or Ronaldo get the slightest contact and the referee will award a free kick. Maradona was constantly targeted, man marked, yet nothing could stop him!

You see, I also to some extent, disagree that Pele was better than Maradona. With Pele, people often forget that like with Messi and Barcelona, there are also an abundance of talented players on the same side...Pele had this with Brazil. Players such as Rivalino, Tostao, Garrincha, Vava, Carlos Alberto, Jazinho, etc...and as for club level, he is renowned for the amount of goals he scored for Santos, something he could have only achieved due to the efforts of his team mates. Scoring over 1000 goals in your career is no mean feet but nor is scoring 16 goals over 4 World Cups, a feat achieved recently by Miroslav Klose of Germany, yet this doesn't make him one of the worlds greatest?

You see, with Maradona, his career will always be judged based on the controversies rather than what he achieved single handedly...he will be remembered more for drug taking and scandals...a shame I know but then so many of these so called geniuses have a self destruct button and this was his unfortunately.

Each and everyone of us has our opinion as to who was the greatest player that ever lived, some will say Zidane, some will say Messi, some will say George Best, some will say Di Stefano, some will say Pele, some will say Ian Dowie...in my eyes, there will only be one...




I would love to have seen James Rodriguez win the golden ball. If the fact that he scored in every game he played wasn't enough then his dazzling brilliance on the pitch should have been enough. -Unfortunately for him some poor referring against the game with Brazil where he was kicked and fouled constantly put an early end to his tournament..

If not James, then Robben was another candidate, as was Nueur or Muller. I personally think that Brazil would have beaten Germany had Neymar and Silva played...that's my opinion anyway, and that Neymar would have gone on to win golden boot and golden ball



Messi was the sole reason why Argentina reached the final? So in that case, when Argentina took the field they fielded just one player against an eleven man opposition. Don't be silly. The only times where I'd say that Messi got Argentina through a game was against Iran (scoring the last minute winner) and the run he made to set up Di Maria against Belgium. I actually expected more from Messi in this tournament, as did so many others, hence why the majority of pundits were dumbfounded at him winning the golden boot. Its also a bit unfair of you saying that Mascherano only played well in the last couple of matches...if that's the case then thanks to him shining in those games, he single handedly prevented Argentina from conceding a goal with his fantastic tackles...if he hadn't played well, Argentina may have conceded on, two maybe three goals and then they'd be out! So to say it was all about Messi is a bit unfair. Talking of unfair, I actually thought the best Argentinian player on the pitch during the Final was Lavezzi!!!! and what happened to him? The manager subbed him to bring on a bigger name - Aguero, and what a difference he made

Great post Andy & a good read to. I may not agree wit the Brazil beating Germany bit but we all have our opinions & we'll never know either

Glad you to appreciate what Mascherano is all about, if only my team Arsenal could have a player like him in the heart of our midfield

 

[RobertoBagg10]

Great post Andy & a good read to. Well maybe not the Brazil beating Germany bit but we all have our opinions & we'll never know either

Glad you to appreciate what Mascherano is all about, if only my team Arsenal could have a player like him in the heart of our midfield

Thanks Steve...appreciate that mate You see, i'm not all just about buying statues you know As for Brazil beating Germany if they had Neymar and Silva back well I truly believe they would of buddy. Neymar set this tournament alight in the early stages, more so than anyone else in the competition. His pace was frightening at times and defenders just couldn't cope! The Germans were slow defensively and he would definitely had taken advantage of this...

As for Mascherano, I cant believe a few people are still saying Messi carried Argentina they must just watch the game soley when Messi has the ball at his feet and then switch off when the opposition are trying to attack If anything, Mascherano single handedly carried Argentina through the tournament with some epic defensive displays without some of his tackles and interceptions, Argentina wouldn't even have reached the final...one crucial tackle being against the Dutch when Robben would have had a free shot at goal in the Semi Finals.

 

[axecutioner18]

Nobody downplayed Mascherano's contribution. But Mascherano was Imperious from Belgium and Netherlands onwards... I think we both saw the same games. Please tell me where you saw Mascherano play epicly against bosnia, or even Iran or Nigeria... It was the goalkeeper Romero who was the saving grace in those games.

And again this is about this World Cup and the Golden Ball.

Why his playing vs Maradona, what he would do in another team coming in here? I dont think comparing players of an era much back is very wise in its own. Like Maradona didnt have the protection of referees neither did he come up against the modern defensive teams who are much much fitter than those days, strong but can also run like the wind. The modern game has evolved, as you saw as the days go by the difference between big teams and so called small teams go down lesser and lesser.

The football world is unforgiving, today we hail Messi, next itll be another superstar in another decade. Hence I dont go into all time great and other trivial comparisons.

Thing is, nothing is undisputed. FIFA released their best XI today and in goal there isnt Manuel Neur, its Keylor Navas.

As for Christiano Ronaldo having proved his talent in both ManU and Real whats the difference? I can hold your same logic about team mates and say he got his success in ManU with ManU's best team in this decade, and the same with Real. He got it with the best team Real have had in a decade. So?

 

[RobertoBagg10]

Nobody downplayed Mascherano's contribution. But Mascherano was Imperious from Belgium and Netherlands onwards... I think we both saw the same games. Please tell me where you saw Mascherano play epicly against bosnia, or even Iran or Nigeria... It was the goalkeeper Romero who was the saving grace in those games

Nobody downplayed Mascherano's contribution? You did by saying Messi carried Argentina to the final clearly not the case. Your argument of Mascherano being imperious from Belguim and Holland onwards, the same can be said about Messi being ineffective from the Belguim game onwards aslo

 

[RobertoBagg10]

And again this is about this World Cup and the Golden Ball.

Why his playing vs Maradona, what he would do in another team coming in here? I dont think comparing players of an era much back is very wise in its own. Like Maradona didnt have the protection of referees neither did he come up against the modern defensive teams who are much much fitter than those days, strong but can also run like the wind. The modern game has evolved, as you saw as the days go by the difference between big teams and so called small teams go down lesser and lesser.

This point of Messi vs Maradona was made by me purely as an opinion which I wanted to put across It had nothing to do with the World Cup but more to do with Messi as a whole and how he will never achieve the same levels of success that Maradona did. as for the modern game evolving with stronger and fitter defenders...I'd like to see Maradona up against the likes of Mertesacker, Cahill, Ramos, Tiago Silva, David Luis, etc...and then see how Messi would play against Gentile, Baresi, Maldini, Ruggeri, Desailly, Kohler, etc....

 

[axecutioner18]

Belgium? Demichelis' change helped the defence looked stronger. And maybe you saw a another match because EVERY Argentina chance was created by Messi. from that imperious 40 yard through ball to Di Maria to the capitulation of the chance which led to the goal.

Maybe watch the highlights again. See whatever Argentina attacked was conducted solely by him inspite of heavy marking from Fellaini and Witsel at every instant

and its not the defenders who start their defense. It started with midfielders. Sheer numbers. Messi has played against the likes of Viera, Cannavaro, Nesta and others. So dont dilute his challenges to jokers like David Luis.

 

[RobertoBagg10]

Belgium? Demichelis' change helped the defence looked stronger. And maybe you saw a another match because EVERY Argentina chance was created by Messi. from that imperious 40 yard through ball to Di Maria to the capitulation of the chance which led to the goal.

Maybe watch the highlights again. See whatever Argentina attacked was conducted solely by him inspite of heavy marking from Fellaini and Witsel at every instant.

Like I said, I watched every game so I don't need to watch the highlights Like I also said previous, rather than watch the game with a clipboard in your hand and jotting down every single pass, shot or dribble made by the wonderkid himself, try looking at the bigger picture...Messi totally underachieved at this World Cup and to see that would require you watching highlights of the Semis and the Final

 

[RobertoBagg10]

Thing is, nothing is undisputed. FIFA released their best XI today and in goal there isnt Manuel Neur, its Keylor Navas.

As for Christiano Ronaldo having proved his talent in both ManU and Real whats the difference? I can hold your same logic about team mates and say he got his success in ManU with ManU's best team in this decade, and the same with Real. He got it with the best team Real have had in a decade. So?

Forget FIFA's best XI infact, forget anything FIFA ever does...they are corrupted and nothing they do even makes sense anymore!

As for Ronaldo playing in Man Utd's best ever team...do you think so? Maybe Corsair would be best to answer that question as he would know better but I certainly wouldn't say he played in Man Uts's best ever team, same as I don't think he's playing in the best Real Madrid team either

 

[axecutioner18]

Wow! Do you know the ManU lineup in which he won the UCL in 2008?? The players in that team are not the shadows they were now. They were at their peak.

And Real Madrid in 2014?? I wonder if you even follow La Liga after you said that. BTW last season it wasnt Ronaldo who was the difference for Real madrid finally finding success in the CL though they lost the league.
It was Sergio Ramos Modric and Di Maria. Ronaldo was far from being their best player last season. Im guessing your idea of the best Real Madrid team ar the galacticos. Surprise, that team won very little then too. No UCL too. That time Valencia used to dominate La Liga.

 

[RobertoBagg10]

Wow! Do you know the ManU lineup in which he won the UCL in 2008?? The players in that team are not the shadows they were now. They were at their peak.

And Real Madrid in 2014?? I wonder if you even follow La Liga after you said that. BTW last season it wasnt Ronaldo who was the difference for Real madrid finally finding success in the CL though they lost the league.
It was Sergio Ramos Modric and Di Maria. Ronaldo was far from being their best player last season. Im guessing your idea of the best Real Madrid team ar the galacticos. Surprise, that team won very little then too. No UCL too. That time Valencia used to dominate La Liga.

For what it's worth, I actually thought that Utds team of 1999 was the best anyway, forget Utd here for a second, I'd rather wait for Corsair's opinion. I want to go back to Messi and discuss why you think he was the deserved victor of the golden ball? I'm not sure if your aware but you do know he totally underachieved right?

 

[axecutioner18]

Forget Utd here for a second, I'd rather wait for Corsair's opinion. I want to go back to Messi and discuss why you think he was the deserved victor of the golden ball? I'm not sure if your aware but you do know he totally underachieved right?

You do? I thought you wanted to tell me more about Maradona, and how Messi will never be like him.

I dont know about underachieve... but I know one thing that Im a fan, you are so, so are the others. We will all have our opinions and insight on every match. Every tournament.

You believe Brazil who had been playing horrible compared to what we expect from 'the brazil' from day one would have beaten Germany if they had Neymar and Thiago Silva.

I believe Messi worthy of the award.

I think it makes both of us pretty invalid when it comes to who has the authoritative view.

 

[franpincho]

You both have excellent points and I enjoy the hell out of a civilized football discussion. For that, cheers!

Here, enjoy!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4vashrNoXTE&feature=kp

 

[RobertoBagg10]

You do? I thought you wanted to tell me more about Maradona, and how Messi will never be like him.

I dont know about underachieve... but I know one thing that Im a fan, you are so, so are the others. We will all have our opinions and insight on every match. Every tournament.

You believe Brazil who had been playing horrible compared to what we expect from 'the brazil' from day one would have beaten Germany if they had Neymar and Thiago Silva.

I believe Messi worthy of the award.

I think it makes both of us pretty invalid when it comes to who has the authoritative view.

Goodposting buddy

You both have excellent points and I enjoy the hell out of a civilized football discussion. For that, cheers!

Here, enjoy!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4vashrNoXTE&feature=kp

Yea, me too my friend...I always love to debate abt my favourite subject...Maradona the majority of my friends are from the UK so they hate Maradona for me he is god!

 

[Darthrazz]

Goodposting buddy



Yea, me too my friend...I always love to debate abt my favourite subject...Maradona the majority of my friends are from the UK so they hate Maradona for me he is god!

I was visiting family in 1986 In Argentina when they won the cup. My parents took me and my sister shopping the day the team returned from Mexico. Suddenly we saw a huge police escort and there in two team buses going slowly down the street ......was the entire team hanging out the windows waving at everyone as they went by, I saw Valdano clearly and Maradona too. One of my favorite life memories!

 

[RobertoBagg10]

I was visiting family in 1986 In Argentina when they won the cup. My parents took me and my sister shopping the day the team returned from Mexico. Suddenly we saw a huge police escort and there in two team buses going slowly down the street ......was the entire team hanging out the windows waving at everyone as they went by, I saw Valdano clearly and Maradona too. One of my favorite life memories!

amazing story my friend without doubt one of the greatest times in the history of Argentinian Football along with 1978...however, the 86 victory was the first World Cup that I ever watched so I will always have fond memories...

For me personally, 2006 will never be beaten. It's not many times that you can say you saw your team winning the World Cup, I was only 5 when Italy won it in 1982 so I don't recall much of that tournament but 2006 was just unforgettable!!! Great times!!! Now I'll have to wait an eternity for them to win it again!!!