General NBA Discussion

[Darkseed]

Wow....some people's hate just make them irrational. I mean the same logic can be reversed without any real point for either scenario.

All things equal same coaches, players, team mate stats and opponents if Jordan or Kobe played on Lebron's teams would their records be untarnished......unlikely.

2007 Cavs Team vs Spurs 0-1
2011 Heat vs Dallas 1-1
2012 Heat vs Thunder 2 -1
2013 Heat vs Spurs 3-1
2014 Heat vs Spurs 3- 2
2015 Cavs vs Warriors 3-3
2016 Cavs vs Warriors 3-4

I split the series with Spurs because their one of the greatest franchises in recent history and I doubt they'd loose two games vs the Heat even with Jordan or Kobe. 2007 & 2015 line up would be a challenge for them to get outta the East but folks will use the "will" word so to make this easy they make it to the Finals. It isn't about how one grown ass professional man wills another grown ass professional man to perform but whether they win the series. I'm saying Jordan nor Kobe fair much better then James. Keeping the 6 league mvps, 9 all team defensive honors, points per game and per playoff with a record of 3-4 (heck assume the trump the Spurs and go 4-3) is Jordan still GOAT. Doubtful....

 

[WWEJedi]

I was having a basketball discussion with a fellow forum member (which didn't involve you if I remember correctly). If you don't like it, feel free not to read my posts or put me on ignore if that helps. I'll say what I want, and what I think, whenever and with whomever I see fit. Read my posts or don't. Makes no difference to me.

As for LeBron passing the GOAT. LeBron fans can say whatever they want. Numbers don't lie and so far all of them favor MJ by a pretty wide margin. Please be sure to let me know when that changes though. I won't be holding my breath. Enjoy the rest of the Finals.

How much is Jordan paying you? I don't go to these lengths to defend Brady, yet here you are still going on about your love for Jordan and hate for LeBron.

Dino, that was a very well thought out post. Dealing with that much info...it's not a crime to miss some small details. It's no big deal.

As for LeBron, even though I'm not a fan, I can't deny his special athleticism or his basketball ability. When it's all said and done, I have no doubt LeBron will be in the HOF. Judging him against today's players is difficult much less against players from other eras. As you said, coaches, rosters, and rules changes are only some of the challenges in trying to compare players from any era. So, this is what I do.

You act like LeBron being out of the Hall of Fame is possible.

Let's put LeBron on the 2 most recent dynasties of the last 2 generations. One I consider the last of the old school teams and one the start of the modern era. The Bulls won six titles and the Lakers 5. Let's put LeBron on any of THOSE 2 teams but take away those 2 teams star players. So, replace MJ with Bron and Kobe with Bron. For the sake of discussion, LeBron is the leader of those 2 dynasties. Here's my question...do you think the Bulls would still win 6 rings and the Lakers 5 with LeBron as their star and leader?

Nobody knows, so why do even ask the question? Well... actually I do know why you ask the question... to hate on LeBron more and further your love for Jordan.

After I took awhile to let that question simmer, my answer is I think not. Sure, he's more than capable of winning a few rings but I see one glaring difference in LeBron's game when compared with the 2 other players I mentioned. When the stakes are at the highest and all the chips are on the table, they had an absolute maniacal drive to their games. They won titles because of their indomitable will to win. They consistently did and sacrificed EVERYTHING they had in order to win games. Regular season games, playoff games, and especially Finals games. That is something I see lacking when I watch LeBron play. Call it killer instinct or being able to rise to the occasion. I don't see it in LeBron. That is what I truly feel is the dividing line between LeBron and other Legends of the game. That constant maniacal drive, that consistent indomitable will...it isn't inherent in LeBron's game when I watch him play and it was evident to me when I watched players like MJ, Kobe, and Magic play (just to mention a few). I don't see that changing anytime soon.

Just irrational. LeBron has the sam FG% as Jordan in the final moments. He carried the Heat in game 7 against the Spurs, carried the Cavs on pure will in 2007....

Sorry you can't see this.

I don't. He's just young and doesn't know any better. That's not meant as an insult, he just literally wasn't old enough to watch what many consider to be the greatest era of basketball. Seeing YouTube clips, reading about the games on the net, or just looking up stats will NEVER be the same as watching those games or those players live.

The same could be said of you with these what if LeBron was on the Bulls/Lakers scenarios.

 

[WWEJedi]

What if Jordan was on the '07 Cavs?

After I took awhile to let that question simmer, my answer is I think not. Sure, he's more than capable of winning a few rings but I see one glaring difference in Jordan's game when compared to Lebron. When the stakes are at the highest and all the chips are on the table, Jordan couldn't do it without Pippen, couldn't even make it out the first round. He won titles because of guys like Pippen. Jordan consistently did and sacrificed EVERYTHING they had in order to win games. Regular season games, playoff games, and especially Finals games, but needed Pippen. That is something I don't see lacking when I watch LeBron play. Call it carrying a team or being rising to the occasion. I see it in LeBron being able to carry a team without HOFers. That is what I truly feel is the dividing line between LeBron and other Legends of the game. LeBron carried teams to the Finals without a great supporting cast. That constant maniacal drive, that consistent indomitable will...it is in LeBron's game when I watch him play and it was evident to me when I watched players like MJ, Kobe, and Magic play (just to mention a few). I don't see that changing anytime soon.

 

[jstep13]

Don't worry LeBron fans, I'm sure he'll get his 6th title after 30 opps so long as he stays in that joke of a conference. Then maybe you can argue bron bron's greatness over MJ

 

[jstep13]

What if Jordan was on the '07 Cavs?

After I took awhile to let that question simmer, my answer is I think not. Sure, he's more than capable of winning a few rings but I see one glaring difference in Jordan's game when compared to Lebron. When the stakes are at the highest and all the chips are on the table, Jordan couldn't do it without Pippen, couldn't even make it out the first round. He won titles because of guys like Pippen. Jordan consistently did and sacrificed EVERYTHING they had in order to win games. Regular season games, playoff games, and especially Finals games, but needed Pippen. That is something I don't see lacking when I watch LeBron play. Call it carrying a team or being rising to the occasion. I see it in LeBron being able to carry a team without HOFers. That is what I truly feel is the dividing line between LeBron and other Legends of the game. LeBron carried teams to the Finals without a great supporting cast. That constant maniacal drive, that consistent indomitable will...it is in LeBron's game when I watch him play and it was evident to me when I watched players like MJ, Kobe, and Magic play (just to mention a few). I don't see that changing anytime soon.

Just some perspective, WWE in 2007...

 

[Darkseed]

Whose arguing anyone's greatness.....debating the stupidity around the whole subjective GOAT theory. Discussions can go either way....

 

[jstep13]

Sorry in advance for the long post.

I've stated it numerous times that I like Lebron James as a player, and I would like to see him succeed. I've never said he is the greatest player in NBA history, though, but I think he gets more crap than any other player, some of his own doing to be honest. But, I'll throw in one last argument to "defend" Lebron.

The list of NBA champions since 2000 are as follows (in all honestly, I chose 2000 arbitrarily as a cut off point for the "modern" NBA era...if I'm wrong or missed anything, by all means correct me):

2000, 2001, 2002, Los Angeles Lakers (Coach Phil Jackson)
2003 San Antonio Spurs (Coach Greg Popovich)
2004 Detroit Pistons (Coach Larry Brown)
2005 SA Spurs (Popovich)
2006 Miami Heat (Coach Pat Riley)
2007 SA Spurs (Popovich)
2008 Boston Celtics (Coach Doc Rivers)
2009, 2010 LA Lakers (Phil Jackson)
2011 Dallas Mavericks (Coach Rick Carlisle)
2012 Miami Heat (Coach Erik Spoelstra)
2013 Miami Heat (Spoelstra)
2014 SA Spurs (Popovich)
2015 GS Warriors (Coach Steve Kerr)

So in the last 15 years, only 7 NBA franchises have won championships (Lakers, Spurs, Pistons, Heat, Celtics, Mavs, and Warriors). Of those seven franchises, four have HOF or soon to be HOF coaches: Phil Jackson with Lakers, Popovich with the Spurs, Larry Brown with the Pistons, and Pat Riley with the 2006 Heat - with the caveat that he took over for Stan Van Gundy late in the season due to health reason *ahem* (Gregg Popovich is the only one of those four who is not currently in the Naismith Basketball Hall of Fame, but with five championships, I daresay he's a pretty good bet to make it in eventually.)

Then you have one very good coach (Rick Carlisle) who, while may not make the HOF, is generally considered among NBA players AND coaches as a top coach.

The other two are Erik Spoelstra and Steve Kerr, who are good coaches in their own right, but it could also be argued that they won championships based on the talent of their respective teams.

So when does coaching enter in the equation? Now, just to be explicit, and to stave off any possible misunderstanding, BY NO MEANS am I arguing that Lebron's Finals records is a product of strictly coaching. But it is a point to consider. The 2004 Pistons defeated a superior Lakers team, and you could arguably state that the 2011 Mavs beat a superior Heat team as well. Lebron James' coaches in the NBA thus far: Paul Silas, Brendan Malone, Mike Brown, Erik Spoelstra, David Blatt, and Tyron Lue. He's faced Popovich three times (1-2), Carlisle (0-1), Scotty Brooks (1-0), and Steve Kerr (0-1, looking at 0-2).

Just a point to consider.

EDIT: Somehow I forgot about Doc Rivers when I was typing (happens when you type too much). I would rank him slightly behind Carlisle, but above Spoelstra and Kerr.

Didn't LeBron pick his own coach?

And the only reason he gets "more crap" than any other player is because he brought it upon himself. The self-anointed "King" who has picked the best teams, chose his own coaching, picked the easiest road to the Finals every year has made his bed and now he has to lie in it.

 

[WWEJedi]

Don't worry LeBron fans, I'm sure he'll get his 6th title after 30 opps so long as he stays in that joke of a conference. Then maybe you can argue bron bron's greatness over MJ

My god.... I never said LeBron is greater than Jordan, only that he could/can be. I ranked Jordan ahead of LeBron in my rankings. I even knocked LeBron. Read the posts.

Whose arguing anyone's greatness.....

flip23 and jstep23

 

[Robopredinator]

What if Jordan was on the '07 Cavs?

After I took awhile to let that question simmer, my answer is I think not. Sure, he's more than capable of winning a few rings but I see one glaring difference in Jordan's game when compared to Lebron. When the stakes are at the highest and all the chips are on the table, Jordan couldn't do it without Pippen, couldn't even make it out the first round. He won titles because of guys like Pippen. Jordan consistently did and sacrificed EVERYTHING they had in order to win games. Regular season games, playoff games, and especially Finals games, but needed Pippen. That is something I don't see lacking when I watch LeBron play. Call it carrying a team or being rising to the occasion. I see it in LeBron being able to carry a team without HOFers. That is what I truly feel is the dividing line between LeBron and other Legends of the game. LeBron carried teams to the Finals without a great supporting cast. That constant maniacal drive, that consistent indomitable will...it is in LeBron's game when I watch him play and it was evident to me when I watched players like MJ, Kobe, and Magic play (just to mention a few). I don't see that changing anytime soon.

You're really talking about needs? Jordan needed Pippen? OK, let's talk about James' needs: In seven seasons he could not will his team to a trophy. His closest was in 2007 where he was swept by the Spurs. Since then, he's been in 6 finals appearances in weak Eastern conferences and won 2. He needed Wade. He needed Bosh. He needed Hakeem Olajuan to train him and teach him post moves. He needed Ray Allen's prayer shot to even get one trophy. He needed to go up against an inexperienced Thunder team to win the other. He then forced the Cavs to make decisions per his request like trading Wiggins for Love and giving Tristan a max deal. Now this year, all of his requested needs are there: David Blatt fired, Lue hired as head coach, Love and Kyrie healthy, Mozgov benched to assert a faster-style of play, wing shooters to contend with Warrior's threes - he assembled his team yet in the first two games accrued the highest point differential in Finals history!

 

[Shawpaw]

This thread is interesting to me.

 

[WWEJedi]

You're really talking about needs? Jordan needed Pippen? OK, let's talk about James' needs: In seven seasons he could not will his team to a trophy. His closest was in 2007 where he was swept by the Spurs. Since then, he's been in 6 finals appearances in weak Eastern conferences and won 2. He needed Wade. He needed Bosh. He needed Hakeem Olajuan to train him and teach him post moves. He needed Ray Allen's prayer shot to even get one trophy. He needed to go up against an inexperienced Thunder team to win the other. He then forced the Cavs to make decisions per his request like trading Wiggins for Love and giving Tristan a max deal. Now this year, all of his requested needs are there: David Blatt fired, Lue hired as head coach, Love and Kyrie healthy, Mozgov benched to assert a faster-style of play, wing shooters to contend with Warrior's threes - he assembled his team yet in the first two games accrued the highest point differential in Finals history!

We can talk about needs just as long as we mention Jordan's needs.

Jordan needed Pippen just to get out of the first round.
Jordan needed a Hall of Fame coach to win titles.
Jordan needed John Paxson
Jordan needed Steve Kerr
Jordan needed gambling
Jordan couldn't take the Wizards to the playoffs in the "weak east"

As far as the things said about LeBron building this current Cavs team... I already said some of those things

 

[WWEJedi]

Didn't LeBron pick his own coach?

And the only reason he gets "more crap" than any other player is because he brought it upon himself. The self-anointed "King" who has picked the best teams, chose his own coaching, picked the easiest road to the Finals every year has made his bed and now he has to lie in it.

I didn't know it was LeBron's fault the east is "weak."

 

[Darkseed]

You're really talking about needs? Jordan needed Pippen? OK, let's talk about James' needs: In seven seasons he could not will his team to a trophy. His closest was in 2007 where he was swept by the Spurs. Since then, he's been in 6 finals appearances in weak Eastern conferences and won 2. He needed Wade. He needed Bosh. He needed Hakeem Olajuan to train him and teach him post moves. He needed Ray Allen's prayer shot to even get one trophy. He needed to go up against an inexperienced Thunder team to win the other. He then forced the Cavs to make decisions per his request like trading Wiggins for Love and giving Tristan a max deal. Now this year, all of his requested needs are there: David Blatt fired, Lue hired as head coach, Love and Kyrie healthy, Mozgov benched to assert a faster-style of play, wing shooters to contend with Warrior's threes - he assembled his team yet in the first two games accrued the highest point differential in Finals history!

I was ok with this post except Olajuwon is spelled wrong, Ray Allen reference (Jordan had his own prayer moments) and the term will. People really think a grown ass profession athelete who trains to win needs / listens to another grown ass man "will" or motivate them to play well? I think the term will means f everyone, ,I'm taking as many shots needed to keep us in the game. If that is the term will, I'd agree it's never been James game therefore it's lacking

 

[user 1190]

Hey look a thread in which WWEjedi has turned completely upside down and all about whoever he is in love with and wants to have their babies.

So he wants Brady's babies for the NFL
Lebrons babies for NBA?

Who who wants to guess what MLB , NHL,soccer player he wants to have their babies?

 

[jstep13]

I didn't know it was LeBron's fault the east is "weak."

Are you familiar with the Butterfly Effect? First, he's sucking all the talent away from potential East suitors. Bosh, Wade, Love, Irving...all these players likely would've been alpha dog's on their respective team, now they are all being corralled away thereby further diluting an already weak conference. Because of this, others teams are now having to create their own superfriends teams also contributing to the dilution of a weak conference. So yeah, it kind of is his fault.

 

[Darkseed]

Long as Bulls and Noah suck delute away


Edit: I love Chicago the city

 

[WWEJedi]

Hey look a thread in which WWEjedi has turned completely upside down and all about whoever he is in love with and wants to have their babies.

So he wants Brady's babies for the NFL
Lebrons babies for NBA?

Who who wants to guess what MLB , NHL,soccer player he wants to have their babies?

It was actually filip23 who started the Jordan is GOAT debate and took every comment I said as negative towards Jordan. He likes Jordan more than I like Brady. Only defending LeBron because the hate towards him leads to irrational thinking.

Are you familiar with the Butterfly Effect? First, he's sucking all the talent away from potential East suitors. Bosh, Wade, Love, Irving...all these players likely would've been alpha dog's on their respective team, now they are all being corralled away thereby further diluting an already weak conference. Because of this, others teams are now having to create their own superfriends teams also contributing to the dilution of a weak conference. So yeah, it kind of is his fault.

That is a nice conspiracy theory you have.

 

[jstep13]

That is a nice conspiracy theory you have.

Truth hurts

 

[WWEJedi]

Truth hurts

According to you guys I know nothing and can't remember anything past the year 2007, but if you want to talk about modern teams/players forming "big threes" or "super friend teams" you can start with the 03-04 Lakers when Payton and Malone joined Shaq and Kobe. Then the Celtics followed suit by trading for there big 3 and then came LeBron to form his.

How can you blame LeBron for that practice when the Lakers and Celtics practiced it before hand?

I will answer for you...

you can't.

 

[jstep13]

Apples and oranges.

The Lakers did so as a last hurrah for a couple of over-the-hill veterans at the end of their careers. The alphas on those teams, Kobe and Shaq, had already proven themselves a success winning multiple titles. While the C's unit were not quite as successful previously before teaming up, they too were quite old (well in their 30's). Those aging stars already paid their dues by toiling away for decades-plus on teams that came up just short for whatever reasons.

LeBron on the other hand colluded with 2 superstars IN THEIR PRIME, not once but TWICE just so he could shortcut his way to multiple titles so his ass could finally cash checks his mouth was writing. No, he wasn't the first super team, but his behavior and actions were the most egregious and disrespectful to the league. And now he's paying for it.