Health Care Discussion

[The Josh]

I'd ask if it was possible. You could have say universal healthcare that would make sure everyone in this country would have access to health care (affordable, pre-existing conditions, etc.) or you would have to give up assault weapons, extended mags, hollow tip bullets, etc,

Would you?

 

[karamazov80]

Re: The Right to Responsible Gun Ownership

To Josh's previous post, there is a strong anti-"Obamacare" healthcare reform contingent on this forum, and I would suspect a high correlation with pro-gun sentiments, so I'm sure that answer won't be difficult for most.

Unlike Switzerland, folks in this country aren't required to have guns. Forcing people to do something they don't want to and allowing people the freedom to do something are different issues, IMO, but since I'm not an advocate in this discussion, I'll let others respond.

-----
On another note, I ran across this article recently, and thought it might be tangentially related to this conversation:

https://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2011/01/11/armed_but_not_necessarily_dangerous

There is an issue in the U.S. with disproportionate levels of gun-related violence in comparison to other wealthy, developed countries. And I think that is a troubling issue definitely worth exploring. Same thing could be said of healthcare (costs in the U.S. far exceed the rest of the developed wealthy world while outcomes lag far behind). Maybe strict gun control isn't the answer, but there definitely is a problem, and something about attitudes regarding guns must play some role, no? If not, what else could be notable causes?

 

[BadMoon]

Re: The Right to Responsible Gun Ownership

I'll be 30 in October. I know its not gonna happen but I'm curious as to which you value more the health and well being of your fellow americans or your assault weapons.

Its too easy to get weapons. IMO you don't have to jump through enough hoops. Again, its much easier to because we haven't worked on the laws hard enough.

You're asking the wrong questions. I value just about anything I own over someone else. My family, my possessions, and my health. I will stop at nothing to make sure my loved ones are taken care of.

The problem is people care more about getting a scuff on their air jordans then they so their own health. People care more about getting their tax returns and blowing it on xboxes and shoes and whatever else it is that strikes their fancy.

Then when they get sick they want to know why someone won't pay. Then they blame insurance companies and the government for their own lack of being able to take care of what's important. Their own healthcare! It's a joke!

Our bodies are our most precious gifts and we blame everyone else but ourselves for not taking care of it.

 

[karamazov80]

Re: The Right to Responsible Gun Ownership

I'm sure that most folks would advocate for the well-being of their fellow man, but what is the means to this? Taxing those of us who already pay for our insurance (via high premiums, co-pays, and deductibles, as well as literal taxes to cover public health insurance like Medicaid and Medicare) so that those who don't can have it (that's the way it already works)? Forcing everyone to buy insurance--even the young and healthy who might otherwise choose not to do so--to cover the risk of disabled persons, the aging, and the poor ("Obamacare")? Unfortunately, there are winners and losers in this health reform debate. And the losers include advocates for the individual right to choose not to buy insurance and folks who don't like the idea of subsidizing the more vulnerable in our population.

If folks think having a gun means safety for themselves and their families (even if it is really just peace of mind) whereas universal health care means a benefit to people they don't know or care about, I can understand choosing the former.

 

[Jason13]

Re: The Right to Responsible Gun Ownership

You're asking the wrong questions. I value just about anything I own over someone else. My family, my possessions, and my health. I will stop at nothing to make sure my loved ones are taken care of.

The problem is people care more about getting a scuff on their air jordans then they so their own health. People care more about getting their tax returns and blowing it on xboxes and shoes and whatever else it is that strikes their fancy.

Then when they get sick they want to know why someone won't pay. Then they blame insurance companies and the government for their own lack of being able to take care of what's important. Their own healthcare! It's a joke!

Our bodies are our most precious gifts and we blame everyone else but ourselves for not taking care of it.

I could not have said it better myself ,well of course I would have used a lot more Commas and made it look like a 4 year old wrote it HAHAHAHAH

 

[The Josh]

Re: The Right to Responsible Gun Ownership

I need to sleep. So I will touch on your contradictory statements tomorrow. However, I will say there is nothing in this world that I would give up to have universal healthcare in the states. We have enough free loaders in this country. I'm not willing to give them anything else.

It was just a simple question. Well, I guess thats the difference between you and I. If I owned assault weapons and they said give them up and Keith can have health care I'd do it.

To Josh's previous post, there is a strong anti-"Obamacare" healthcare reform contingent on this forum, and I would suspect a high correlation with pro-gun sentiments, so I'm sure that answer won't be difficult for most.

Unlike Switzerland, folks in this country aren't required to have guns. Forcing people to do something they don't want to and allowing people the freedom to do something are different issues, IMO, but since I'm not an advocate in this discussion, I'll let others respond.

There are but Obama's name isn't in the bill at all. Thats just a dumb name ignorant people give it. The law needs work but its a good starting place. We spend money in this country on much dumber things than health care. I know it won't be hard just tossing that out there for my own amusement.

 

[Cloud]

Re: The Right to Responsible Gun Ownership

It was just a simple question. Well, I guess thats the difference between you and I. If I owned assault weapons and they said give them up and Keith can have health care I'd do it.



There are but Obama's name isn't in the bill at all. Thats just a dumb name ignorant people give it. The law needs work but its a good starting place. We spend money in this country on much dumber things than health care. I know it won't be hard just tossing that out there for my own amusement.

Well you know already I support universal healthcare and it's not because I'm a lazy bum who wants a free ride. I pay my taxes. But it breaks my heart how some people are becoming homeless in our great country because they can't afford to pay their ever-increasing medical bills. I know what that is like because I had to move back in with my folks when I was struck with cancer simply because I just couldn't afford to pay the premiums AND my rent.

And I would sell every toy I own just to cure one junkie prostitute's cancer. I care about my fellow Americans, probably more than I should.

 

[hoodonit00]

Re: The Right to Responsible Gun Ownership

I'll be 30 in October. I know its not gonna happen but I'm curious as to which you value more the health and well being of your fellow americans or your assault weapons.

Its too easy to get weapons. IMO you don't have to jump through enough hoops. Again, its much easier to because we haven't worked on the laws hard enough.

Why don'tyou sell all of your collectibles that you have bought and donate the money to St Judes or some other worthy charity thtat helps out the needy. You're trying to get one of us gun owners to say that "My guns are more important then anything". Well I be the first. I'll keep my guns, my collectibles, my X Box and games and my CD's. Maybe, just maybe if I feel like it I'll give some money to charity. How about you though. You gonna give up all your stuff?

 

[hoodonit00]

Re: The Right to Responsible Gun Ownership

Who says I don't give to charity or donate my time? Cause I do. I do my part. I don't need to get anyone to say it cause I already know the answer.

Just answer the question. I'm sure you know of a really desrving family in your area don't you? A family that a couple thousand dollars would make a big difference for. Sell all of your collectibles and donate the money to them. You don't need a game system or any of the statues you have do you. I wouldn't sell my guns to help them, I admit it. Now will you do it or not? You would really make me eat my words if you do. Come on Josh, prove me wrong.

 

[Cloud]

Re: The Right to Responsible Gun Ownership

Maybe you guys should start a new healthcare thread?

 

[The Josh]

Re: The Right to Responsible Gun Ownership

The Josh. The healthcare bill is a case of "if it sounds to good to be true it probably is" things. There is no way in hell to give free medical to millions of more people and peoples taxes not go up. Not only that but we don't have the medical staff for the influx of patiens that would come with it. Add that to the cuts medical personel would take intheir salary with the regulations that would come, more medical people would get out of the field and compound the problem.

It needs work. Its not perfect at all. I don't believe its giving free medical health care to millions but helping make it more affordable. Some are getting free buts you have to meet certain regs. If you don't like that part I'd say don't take medicare/medicaid when you get old and pass on social security (assuming its still there). As far as taxes let's let folks like Oprah, Michael Jordan, Tiger Woods, Bill Gates, Rush, etc take on a bit more. They can afford it a bit more than I. We don't right now because the current cost is so high that hospitals are struggling because its hard to pay for now. We need more affordable options so that people can pay their stuff. As far as staffing in these places if more people could pay then that would help and hospitals need to just hire them too. As far as new regs having someone in that business it happens all the time new bill or not. Actually, more people are trying to get into it right now than ever last time I saw.

 

[The Josh]

Re: The Right to Responsible Gun Ownership

Just answer the question. I'm sure you know of a really desrving family in your area don't you? A family that a couple thousand dollars would make a big difference for. Sell all of your collectibles and donate the money to them. You don't need a game system or any of the statues you have do you. I wouldn't sell my guns to help them, I admit it. Now will you do it or not? You would really make me eat my words if you do. Come on Josh, prove me wrong.

I answered. I already give money to charity and donate my time. Thus allowing me to keep my stuff.

 

[hoodonit00]

Re: The Right to Responsible Gun Ownership

Maybe you guys should start a new healthcare thread?

Sorry I'll stop the healthcare bit.

 

[The Josh]

Re: The Right to Responsible Gun Ownership

Maybe you guys should start a new healthcare thread?

Probably should but honestly the topic should probably end. I come here to talk toys. I should learn to just keep my mouth shut.

 

[karamazov80]

Re: The Right to Responsible Gun Ownership

ACA is the commonly used name of the legislation, not of the things the legislation actually concerns itself with. That's a philosophical/political shift in the nature of healthcare that the Democrats haven't been able to give a nifty name. I wish they did, because "Obamacare" is a dumb name. But they haven't, and people have heard and know what "Obamacare is," so that's the best there is.

Regarding taxation, what I said earlier was that ACA is going to fund insurance for the uninsured by requiring "everyone" (read: not really, but a lot more than we currently have) to have health insurance. Currently, we pay for it via taxation of one sort or another (either to the government to cover parts of Medicaid and Medicare, or by paying more than we should to insurance companies to cover their risk pools). However, parts of ACA are funded, in large part, by rate changes and cut-backs to existing programs--Medicare being a huge target.

These aren't taxes in the sense of paying more money for X. But they are taxes in the sense of taking something away from someone so that they have to spend more of their income to receive the same level of service in the future. When economists talk of taxation, they will often include these things, because it is really an artificial, simplistic view to say that only things like income and VAT taxes constitute all of taxation.

Regarding insurance companies, you are right--many of them are making money hand over fist (such as those with dastardly "mini-med" policies). But many aren't, and from what I've read, most major insurers already exceed the Medical Loss Ratio thresholds that ACA sets up. The real increase in cost in health care in this country is in products and services. Those have risen far faster than inflation, and have caused insurance companies to charge more and more. Another potential, related villain is hospitals. And more specifically, chains of hospitals that monopolize an area's health care needs then jack up prices to unreasonable levels (apparently, this is a big problem in California).

There are other factors, but the insurance companies aren't the end-all, be-all. And really, insurers that can survive the restrictions will be benefiting from ACA because they will have hugely increased customer bases.

And that's the last I'll speak of this here. Like Cloud says, if folks want to discuss ACA or the state of health care in the U.S., let's start up another thread for it.

 

[hairlesswookiee]

Re: The Right to Responsible Gun Ownership

Maybe you guys should start a new healthcare thread?

Agreed...seems like it was the perfect Straw Man argument to me to. He got everyone sidetracked and talking about universal healthcare instead of the topic of the thread.

 

[drbrad1975]

Re: The Right to Responsible Gun Ownership

It needs work. Its not perfect at all. I don't believe its giving free medical health care to millions but helping make it more affordable. Some are getting free buts you have to meet certain regs. If you don't like that part I'd say don't take medicare/medicaid when you get old and pass on social security (assuming its still there). As far as taxes let's let folks like Oprah, Michael Jordan, Tiger Woods, Bill Gates, Rush, etc take on a bit more. They can afford it a bit more than I. We don't right now because the current cost is so high that hospitals are struggling because its hard to pay for now. We need more affordable options so that people can pay their stuff. As far as staffing in these places if more people could pay then that would help and hospitals need to just hire them too. As far as new regs having someone in that business it happens all the time new bill or not. Actually, more people are trying to get into it right now than ever last time I saw.

There is nothing in the current health care bill that causes it to go down. Ever since obamacare passed, my insurance premiums have gone up. ON average, they went up 23 percent for most americans. It is bad bill and really needs to start over with thoughtful consideration. Currently, the bill is a mess.

 

[BadMoon]

Re: The Right to Responsible Gun Ownership

There is nothing in the current health care bill that causes it to go down. Ever since obamacare passed, my insurance premiums have gone up. ON average, they went up 23 percent for most americans. It is bad bill and really needs to start over with thoughtful consideration. Currently, the bill is a mess.

Karm already pointed out the obvious. People think and thought how great it is. However, they never stopped to actually read and understand it. It's a mess. In the long run it's costing people more money.

NOTHING is "free". I expect the majority of this ____e to be repealed anyways.

 

[karamazov80]

Re: The Right to Responsible Gun Ownership

People think and thought how great it is. However, they never stopped to actually read and understand it. It's a mess. In the long run it's costing people more money.

NOTHING is "free". I expect the majority of this ____e to be repealed anyways.

I lied earlier, but this time I really mean it's the last I'll say

It is unknown if the long-term costs will be greater or lesser than what they would be without this thing. The CBO estimates there will be long-term savings, but that is taking the assumptions built within the bill at face value.

Health care in this country needs to be reformed, because without that, costs definitely are going to go to high too quickly--to the point where many of us who currently are happy with the status quo won't be so happy anymore. But the ACA is a mixed bag of savings and expenditures, and the potential ramifications of the insurance exchanges, the low-income subsidies, the Medicaid expansion, and the individual mandate generally are too complex to accurately estimate IMO.

 

[BadMoon]

Re: The Right to Responsible Gun Ownership

I lied earlier, but this time I really mean it's the last I'll say

It is unknown if the long-term costs will be greater or lesser than what they would be without this thing. The CBO estimates there will be long-term savings, but that is taking the assumptions built within the bill at face value.

Health care in this country needs to be reformed, because without that, costs definitely are going to go to high too quickly--to the point where many of us who currently are happy with the status quo won't be so happy anymore. But the ACA is a mixed bag of savings and expenditures, and the potential ramifications of the insurance exchanges, the low-income subsidies, the Medicaid expansion, and the individual mandate generally are too complex to accurately estimate IMO.

I think the government should try to reform healthcare. I just think they are barking up the wrong tree. You want reform, you need to fix malpractice insurance, and the cost of healthcare. Everyone looks at the insurance companies and never stops to look at what said companies actually pay out to providers. People see they have a $100 copay and that's all their ER visit costs. When in reality their ER visit for their sore throat probably cost around $4,000.