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I agree. Must be one more JL figure this week surely.
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Hot Toys Justice League Superman
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I never said that comic book movies without R ratings are watered down adaptations ( quite reductive), but when you look at adaptions of stories from Marvel for example, they are watering down the stories compared to the comics. Just look at Civil War or the other properties that they've adapted and changed greatly from the books.
The example I used of David Lynch directing Killing Joke was just a specific adaptation that I would like to see as a fan of the story as well as David Lynch's work. It's David Lynch. Why wouldn't you want that?
The thing is. I find most comic book movies terrible. There are only a handful I like. The rest being awful, if not forgetttable. The problem isn't tone, it's actually their writing and story telling thats the issue. Character's don't tend to have any real development and don't real earn their archs.
Wonder Woman's first two acts are ok. Pretty straight forward, but not bad. It touches on some of the themes explored in BVS about humanity and the human condition, but the third act of Diana's journey is just a mess. If I was Ares, I wouldn't have even turned up at the end. It would have been something if the movie just ended on a cliffhanger with Diana thinking Ares didn't exist. As it is, it's poorly written and articulated with Diana flipping around mentally in a span of 3 minutes...as with most comic book movies these days, the character doesn't really earn her arch or "Journey" by end of the film. Like the director just thought it had to end the movie at some point and the characters just had to save the day regardless. I agree with James Cameron's assesment of the film. The movie could have been so much better if the third act got another pass is the writing process. I really enjoyed the animated movie...I think that's still better. Doesn't quite match George Perez's excellent run, but I also like the New 52 Wonder Woman comics that I now really want to revisit.
BVS has an amazing, well structured story that deconstructs the genre, the characters and does an excellent job in exploring the human condition and themes of moral ambiguity and moral subjectivity. The tendency of looking for simple answers in a complex world which is very relevant today. It doesn't hold the viewer's hands as much compared to your typical comic adaption, but it's characters and their motivations are excellently rendered. It's fairly art house in it's approach. As a nexus for setting up the necessity of the Justice League and the greater DC film universe it's an amazing literary accomplishment. For something so thematically rich, it manages to bring everything together really well in the end. It is a film that admittedly could only be done once.
If only Justice League could have been the counter point to BVS that we deserve.
Jaymas
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That was the funniest sentence I have ever read.
it tried, it wanted to deal with those themes sure, but MoS and BvS delt with those themes on such a shallow level mainly trying to convey the ideas through exposition and visual spectacle. For instance we are told over and over in MoS that Superman stands for hope, but the character doesn't show us any hope. Or when Faora tells Superman, "The fact that you possess a sense of morality, and we do not, gives us an evolutionary advantage." It's just exposition because we are never shown superman's "morality" and his deep commitment to it. It's a great line, a similar was used by Ursa in Superman II, and though that film was cartoony for sure, the claim was more than just exposition because we saw from Superman why she would say that about him. MoS completely failed at this, which is why though the actor was good and he looked like Superman, most people didn't think he really embodied the character no matter how many times they TELL us he stands for "hope".
As for character motivations in BvS, again the most childish motivations were given to the characters. Bruce Wayne is a fearful Xenophobe which leads him to want to murder Superman even if there is a 1% chance he might be bad, which can apparently be undone even after having committed himself insanely to the cause in just two seconds once he finds out Superman has a mommy and their mothers share the same name. WTF? I am not sure how this is an "excellently rendered motivation". Batman goes from murdering rampage to besties in two seconds. Utterly ridiculous. I actually laughed out loud in the theater when this happened. It's not Ben Aflleck's fault, he performed it the best he could, it just wasn't believable writing at all. Sure, the potential was there, it could be a story about Batman going unhinged from PTSD after the events of Man of Steel, that would be deep and then about him needing a conflict with Superman who demonstrates himself to truly be good to snap him out of it. Again, I think they may have tried to tell that story, but the execution of it was awful, though beautiful visually to look at. I feel like the apologist for BvS must just get sucked into the beautiful cinematography and the dark look of the film which mentions deep complex topics and somehow thinks that it actually deals with those topics in a intelligible way. I just don't get it.
sigh... maybe visually, but the execution of the story is typical Hollywood crap.
"You keep using that word (literary), I don't think it means what you think it means." – Inigo Montoya
Yeah... again not sure it did. Why did the world (or even part of the world) mourn Superman? I like the idea that the world would be conflicted about the existence of Superman, but they never made the case between MoS and BvS for him to contrast the fear of him. Any feelings of the "goodness" of Superman we bring with us out of our familiarity with the character over all, but it's never shown on film for THIS Superman. So the weight of losing Superman isn't really there, though the movie TELLS you its there. The same is true with Batman who made a 180 when it comes to his position on Superman, what really and realistically changed his mind so that he now wants to put a team together in honor of Superman? Again, I get what they were trying to do, but I am not giving them credit for trying when they arn't actually able to do it.
Sadly this is true, and they ate through a bunch of wonderful comic material (like Millers Dark Knight, and the Death and Return of Superman) that it will be a long long time if ever until we can get a decent adaptation or interpretation of those things on film again. It's a lost opportunity.
A counter point would have been nice. I give them credit for trying to make BvS a counter point to MoS, I thought that was the right idea, just poorly executed. My hope for Justice League was for them to try it again and get it right, and in doing so they could even redeem the earlier "chapters" of the previous movies (there was some good stuff there just a lot of holes). I think the execs got scared because the plan to do that didn't work like they hoped in BvS so they chickened out and tried to pivot the themes of the series rather than writing a satisfactory conclusion to the themes they already started. I think in the end they made more of mess trying to "fix" it. the thing is, you have to understand what needs fixed and what doesn't and executives rarely have a clue.
I know I have been hard on the DCEU here. I am not a hater. I was rooting for it. I want it to do well. I think there was some good things in all the movies. But none of it qualifies as some sort of movie or literary greatness of any sort.
SilverStar17
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I'm personally a fan of the current DCEU and like the universe they have set up better than the MCU, but what I don't like is exactly what Jaymas described regarding WB and them seemingly having knee jerk reactions to what they think the fans, people and critics want to see. If the directors they hire have a vision with a particular character that WB initially approved of, I think they're best just staying on track and not pandering to critics, and finishing that vision through.
I think all of the films they've produced have been strong (sans SS) and I'd be extremely disappointed if they were to pull the plug on this (I don't think they will), but they're definitely going about this haphazardly. I personally think SS should have been a stand alone Flash film instead and that they should have introduced SS post JL, as well as continuing to focus primarily on their main characters post JL while gradually phasing in secondary characters, and not have a rash of stand alone films for their secondary characters and stand alone films for villains.
I think all of the films they've produced have been strong (sans SS) and I'd be extremely disappointed if they were to pull the plug on this (I don't think they will), but they're definitely going about this haphazardly. I personally think SS should have been a stand alone Flash film instead and that they should have introduced SS post JL, as well as continuing to focus primarily on their main characters post JL while gradually phasing in secondary characters, and not have a rash of stand alone films for their secondary characters and stand alone films for villains.
Jaymas
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Bingo. I think that's the heart of the issue regardless of if we happen to like this particular take on the DC movie universe or not. Give us a consistent and coherent product. You can't please everyone all the time. I am more of a critic of the DCEU, but I understand if they had pleased me more someone else would have been upset. Pick a vision, let it play out, don't throw directors under the bus for story lines after the fact you approved of before hand. I am not saying they can't listen to criticism at all and give notes and try to tweak some things as the franchise advances (I was hoping they would) but stop with the panic button running desperately in some other completely overcompensating direction. If you do listen to critics UNDERSTAND what's behind the criticism, weight it appropriately and distinguish between just finicky fan boy expectations and legitimate criticism of the craft of movie making; and adjust accordingly. I have been pretty critical at times toward MoS and BvS, but clearly the studio doesn't get it even when they try to listen to the criticism. They lack people at the top with any real discernment about what they should be doing. They are just sort of trying things seeing what sticks. That can work once in a while, lots of movies are made that way, but it's difficult to create a consistent interconnected movie universe that way.
The most frustrsting thing is them cutting stuff that linked directly to the knightmare sequence in BvS which I loved. I know the movie gets a lot of hate but the UE is better than most recent comic book movies for me.
A longer JL cut with more of Snyders scenes put back and some of the cringey Whedon jokes cut would make it a much better movie.
A longer JL cut with more of Snyders scenes put back and some of the cringey Whedon jokes cut would make it a much better movie.
It's unfortunate that DC isn't and probably will never in a place like Marvel is where they are given the freedom to create their own movies independent from the micro-managing oversight of the parent studio. Yes, I know they all technically work for Disney, but they work for Marvel under Disney and other parts of Disney don't interfere with production very much, and over the years it seems any toxic interference has been weeded out little by little. Disney really trusts Feige to get the job done, and he does.
I can't remember how long ago it was, but I remember seeing an article on facebook about how DC just made Geoff Johns the "Feige" of DC (paraphrasing obviously) But I can't help but feel like they just make him the face of the operation as some kind of posturing to make people think that the WB studio isn't full of out of touch morons, who's most influential contributions are (like SilverStar stated) knee jerk reactions that do more harm than good. They really should just trust the vision of the writers and directors, but I think the DCEU will die a painful death before that happens. I hope i'm wrong.
I love both Marvel and DC equally, and I love the MCU and the DCEU. The DCEU really struck a chord with me early because it introduced the very first live action superman that I find interesting, MoS is one of my favorite movies and I really like BvS and Justice League. Are they perfect? No. But I really don't think they are as awful as people are making them out to be. A lot of people seem to hate Iron Man 2 also, but It's honestly one of my favorite MCU movies to this day, so maybe it's just me.
I love that Marvel is succeeding but it makes me feel awful that so many people hate the DCEU and are so eager to pick it apart when I actually enjoy all of it so far. I want to see it succeed and I want to see it last and go on to rival the MCU, but I just don't see it happening and it bums me out.
I can't remember how long ago it was, but I remember seeing an article on facebook about how DC just made Geoff Johns the "Feige" of DC (paraphrasing obviously) But I can't help but feel like they just make him the face of the operation as some kind of posturing to make people think that the WB studio isn't full of out of touch morons, who's most influential contributions are (like SilverStar stated) knee jerk reactions that do more harm than good. They really should just trust the vision of the writers and directors, but I think the DCEU will die a painful death before that happens. I hope i'm wrong.
I love both Marvel and DC equally, and I love the MCU and the DCEU. The DCEU really struck a chord with me early because it introduced the very first live action superman that I find interesting, MoS is one of my favorite movies and I really like BvS and Justice League. Are they perfect? No. But I really don't think they are as awful as people are making them out to be. A lot of people seem to hate Iron Man 2 also, but It's honestly one of my favorite MCU movies to this day, so maybe it's just me.
I love that Marvel is succeeding but it makes me feel awful that so many people hate the DCEU and are so eager to pick it apart when I actually enjoy all of it so far. I want to see it succeed and I want to see it last and go on to rival the MCU, but I just don't see it happening and it bums me out.
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SilverStar17
Super Freak
Same here. I get enjoyment out of both the DCEU and the MCU, but if I had to choose, I like the world the DCEU has created better.
To put it succinctly, I have enjoyed all of the DCEU films thus far and think that MoS, BvS and WW are the best modern superhero films created. I enjoyed JL as well, but I'm leaning towards saying I think those aforementioned three were better. However, what I don't like is just how haphazardly they're going about their universe as an aggregate whole. I suppose you can date it back to starting when their first intention was to attempt and lump MoS in with the Nolanverse, and that fell through. With Phase 1 presumably complete, you would think they should have a pretty clear vision of where they want to go with this and with each individual character, but you can't help but feel that they're still sitting at the drawing board, fielding various ideas on which direction they should go post JL, desperate to go with the idea that they think will get the same praise from critics that the MCU seems to get.
With that mentality, I almost feel that even if they scrap this universe and reboot it, their new universe deserves to get trolled just for the sake of being trolled, because you know it'll drive them crazy trying to figure out what the right "formula" is.
Moral of the story? As DM said, just trust the visions of the directors and the writers whose ideas you initially signed off on, and stand by it. Quit having knee jerk reactions and trying pander to critics; especially if the criticisms are just finnicky fanboy stuff, like Jaymas said.
To put it succinctly, I have enjoyed all of the DCEU films thus far and think that MoS, BvS and WW are the best modern superhero films created. I enjoyed JL as well, but I'm leaning towards saying I think those aforementioned three were better. However, what I don't like is just how haphazardly they're going about their universe as an aggregate whole. I suppose you can date it back to starting when their first intention was to attempt and lump MoS in with the Nolanverse, and that fell through. With Phase 1 presumably complete, you would think they should have a pretty clear vision of where they want to go with this and with each individual character, but you can't help but feel that they're still sitting at the drawing board, fielding various ideas on which direction they should go post JL, desperate to go with the idea that they think will get the same praise from critics that the MCU seems to get.
With that mentality, I almost feel that even if they scrap this universe and reboot it, their new universe deserves to get trolled just for the sake of being trolled, because you know it'll drive them crazy trying to figure out what the right "formula" is.
Moral of the story? As DM said, just trust the visions of the directors and the writers whose ideas you initially signed off on, and stand by it. Quit having knee jerk reactions and trying pander to critics; especially if the criticisms are just finnicky fanboy stuff, like Jaymas said.
Thats how I feel. Was hopeful for BvS, failed. Hopeful for SS, failed. Only ones that I was good with are MoS and WW.
At this point, IDGAF. Once they come up with something good, then I'll look at it again. No point in wasting my time trying to like something awful.
ShadowX81
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I'm sorry but I'm going to have to disagree completely. The fact of the matter is that BvS was a critical disaster. Both fans and casual audiences alike largely found it to be an obtuse mess; pompous and pretending to be deep with very little substance in the way of story or character. I know that apologists like to justify every bit of this film, but the hard truth is that those fans are in the minority. It was a misstep. When you make a mistake, the correct response shouldn't be to double down on that mistake for the sake of consistency.
What good does consistency get you if you just keep pissing off audiences for the same reasons over and over again? When the audience express concern over a certain element, we want to feel that the studios are listening. Not ignoring us and instructing us on what we should be enjoying. Or sticking to a creative vision that the audience just isn't interested in. Hell, even George Lucas had the sense to largely ditch Jar-Jar after Episode 1. Or should he have been kept around too for the sake of consistency?
These aren't knee-jerk reactions either. Up until WW, the DCEU was 0-3 in terms of critical hits. And its been going on since 2013. 4 years. That's a lot of time to roll with a vision that people just aren't responding to.
What good does consistency get you if you just keep pissing off audiences for the same reasons over and over again? When the audience express concern over a certain element, we want to feel that the studios are listening. Not ignoring us and instructing us on what we should be enjoying. Or sticking to a creative vision that the audience just isn't interested in. Hell, even George Lucas had the sense to largely ditch Jar-Jar after Episode 1. Or should he have been kept around too for the sake of consistency?
These aren't knee-jerk reactions either. Up until WW, the DCEU was 0-3 in terms of critical hits. And its been going on since 2013. 4 years. That's a lot of time to roll with a vision that people just aren't responding to.
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I'm not quite so sure but I hope your right.
Mr. Fusion
Super Freak
Hot Toys needs to step up and produce a new sculpt. Supes needs a smirk. And has anyone else noticed another difference in appearance? It took me a while.
SilverStar17
Super Freak
Food for thought if that were the case: if those same critics and fanboys who slammed MoS and BvS because they were pissed for both not being the way they wanted it to be, why is their seemingly main reason now to be pissed off with JL is that it's "inconsistent" because it's not like the previous installments?
Seems to me like they may be a little inconsistent with their criticisms.
Seems to me like they may be a little inconsistent with their criticisms.
Makes perfect sense. MoS and BvS weren’t good, and JL doubles down on the same tone while also trying to be comedic. It’s not saying the previous ones were good, just that it doesn’t make sense to only partially move on. I would have preferred a consistently bad JL than the horrible mess we got.
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I talked about it before, his hair is combed to the other side in JL.
**16k**
Super Freak
Eeeeer... The stache?
SilverStar17
Super Freak
Sounds damned if you do, damned if you don't to me.
Mr. Fusion
Super Freak
At this point in the DC universe, you can't really polish a turd.
ShadowX81
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Maybe, but ive got to give them points for atleast trying to right the ship with Justice League, even if it is a bit too little too late.
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