Indy 12'' line on ''pause.'' OR The Future of the Sideshow 12" INDY Line

[thenammagazine]

I only just recently purchased the 12" Raiders figure and liked it way more than I thought I would.

Normally I only purchase the Hot Toys stuff or the even more expensive Enterbay Bruce Lee stuff.

But I was really surprised at how good the Sideshow Indy was considering its price point. With all his accessories, he is a fairly complicated figure and for only $90 he is half the price (or even less!) of Hot Toys and Enterbay offerings but yet I think the quality is still quite good.

I would say there is still good money in the license to at least do a 12" Indy Last Crusade figure.

Save your $$$ and buy a black tie for your RotLA.

 

[aussieinnyc]

This "HT would do better" is a strawman's argument. There're people at this very moment paying $1k for a more accurate Joker sculpt, butchering predators to make then screen accurate, etc., etc., etc. At the end of the day HT doesn't have the license so frankly, you can't say they would.

Without being overcritical (I know, it's impossible for you not to be), all the ROTLA Indy needed was a bodyswap and a repaint. That's $30 for the loose TT and $50 for the repaint which puts him at $170, exactly the pricepoint HT would likely be charging for an Indy. The only problem you'd have to factor in is that with HT, you wouldn't get near as good a likeness as what Trevor sculpted (just look at Downy jr and Arnold - great sculpts but still, despite several figures, just not there). And let's be honest here. It's both easier and cheaper to repaint a head than it is to pay for someone to sculpt a more accurate one (especially Ford) and paint it. That's not even accounting for any major QC issues that might pop up with the figure and also assuming they'd put as much time and detail into the correct pants, jacket, etc. vs. finding ways to cut corners with re-uses on boots, gloves, etc.

Then there's the whole other deal of the pricepoint. Less people would be willing to jump in at $170 a figure than at $90 a figure.

So at the end of the day, I'd rather buy a Sideshow Indy at $90 and pay $80 to fix him up, than buy a $170 Hot Toys figure and spend an extra $80+ just to get an accurate Ford likeness.

Yeah, yeah, I know most of you have moved on from this but I've only just read it so, whatever...

I appreciate what you say here, Nam, but I don't agree. Just as you say that "since HT doesn't have the license you can't say they would do better", you also can't say they wouldn't.

People are spending $1K and over for a more accurate Joker sculpt, but I don't think they need to. If HT were to produce an Indy that was as close to Ford as the Bank Robber Joker was to Ledger, I'd be very happy. It definitely comes down to where you choose to draw your own personal line of contentment. Now as to whether they would be able to get that close is completely unknown. I'd argue that they've had more hits than misses in sculpt accuracy, so the balance of probabilities would come down in my favour, but I'll give it as an unknown.

What's not unknown is that the paint aps would be far better than what Sideshow would produce. And, I'd go so far to say, far better than what most of the customisers on this board would produce. You also wouldn't be left 6/12/18 months waiting to get it back only to be told that your customiser had personal difficulties and your paint job won't be done, your money gone, and you're lucky to get your head back. I think a $50 repaint is at the lowest end of the price spectrum and you're not going to get HT quality for that amount anyway. You're definitely not going to get it cast in the semi-translucent plastic that HT uses that give it a more life-like appearance.

My SS clothing experience is limited, but I've found it to be only as good as, and on some occasions, less than, the quality of HT in terms of tailoring, accuracy and attention to detail. Then again, I don't pay as much attention to that aspect, as long as it looks right, that's good enough for me - I'm not going to comparing number of buttons on the film suit jacket to the 1/6 jacket. But from what I understand, both SS and HT are about equal in terms of getting this right. As far as I'm aware HT don't do a lot of re-use unless where it's appropriate (eg Batman's gloves or boots, etc) correct me if I'm wrong.

SS has customer service. And they do it well. HT is a joke - absolutely no argument from me here. As for quality control, well, I really only pay close attention to the DC characters they've released, and of those any "traditional" figure (ie plastic figure wearing cloth clothes) they've done has turned out fine, with no issues (the hand pegs seem only an issue for the rubber-suited bodies). Wolverine, likewise had no problem I'm aware of beyond the leather dye not fully set and staining the rubber torso if stored on top of each other. Was Batman's leaky armour a monumental stuff-up? You betcha. Is there anything on a representation of Indy that we might have to worry about? Not that I can think of.

As for the price, well I don't think anything I'm going to say will sway you, likewise nothing you say will sway me. I don't think Indy would be a $180 figure. I'd say it would able to be found for closer to $120, whether that be the actual suggested retail price, or the "discounted" retail price, or whatever. Even if we cut the difference and say $150, I still think almost as many people will pay it as SS's $90 version. In my mind SS's product has crossed into the pricing zone of "luxury good". I think of it like this: the cheapest airfare I can find from Sydney to New York is around $1000-$1500 (I checked these prices a while ago, I might be a little off but it should be about right). If I want to fly business class, that airfare rockets up to around $14,000. If I want to fly first class, I'm going to pay about $18,000. To me, then, I have the choice of two seats - economy class or first class. I would never purchase a business class seat. Because if I can afford to pay the business class price, then I might as well pay the extra and go up to first. Sideshow's prices, for me, have crossed into the business class threshold. And if I'm going to pay $90 for a figure, I'll also pay $150 for one. Even though SS products aren't the same price as HT, they fall into (IMO) the same price bracket. If I were asked to describe what SS produces in the 1:6 range and what they cost, I'd go with something along the lines of "high quality representations of licensed characters, at a collector's price point". I'd use the same description of HT. Given the same description of product and cost, I'm going to choose the one that represents the best looking product.

I wouldn't call myself a HT fanboy. I haven't bought anything of theirs since Wolverine - I haven't been interested in the product enough to do so. But while I have 8 of HT's figures, I haven't been disappointed in any of them. I have 2 of Sideshow's and at best find them acceptable. I'd say that HT's methods of manufacture constantly outshine or equal SS's, and the areas that they have had failures (some sculpts not being accurate, breakage) are also areas that SS can, and do, fail. Sideshow's paint applications, on their 1:6 and even their PF and 1:1 are a joke. Until they can get these to HT or Enterbay I think they will have problems.

Based on their past work, HT are theoretically capable of producing an Indy that I can take out of the box and put on the shelf and be 100% happy with. I know it's pure speculation on my behalf that this is what would happen. But it's also pure speculation on your behalf that it wouldn't.

 

[thenammagazine]

LFL licensing would easily put a $150 to $180. Remember, Lucas makes his billions through merchandising and an LFL license is more valuable than a Predators license, a Marvel Iron Man license and dare I say even a Batman license. And again, it's a strawman's argument to say HT would do better. With Ford, especially at that price, it's a matter of nailing the headsculpt perfectly. Based on what I've seen from HT, beit Stark, Bruce Wayne or even Arnold, it's always "close enough" but not perfect. While that might work for a T-800, that won't work for Indy. Especially given that Sideshow has given us a perfect sculpt at half the price of what HT would be charging.

It is all pure speculation on both sides, I wholly agree. But despite that, would it even be a profitable adventure for HT? Sideshow couldn't even sell out of theirs before the body and paint QC issues were identified.

 

[Something Sexy]

LFL licensing would easily put a $150 to $180. Remember, Lucas makes his billions through merchandising and an LFL license is more valuable than a Predators license, a Marvel Iron Man license and dare I say even a Batman license. And again, it's a strawman's argument to say HT would do better. With Ford, especially at that price, it's a matter of nailing the headsculpt perfectly. Based on what I've seen from HT, beit Stark, Bruce Wayne or even Arnold, it's always "close enough" but not perfect. While that might work for a T-800, that won't work for Indy. Especially given that Sideshow has given us a perfect sculpt at half the price of what HT would be charging.

It is all pure speculation on both sides, I wholly agree. But despite that, would it even be a profitable adventure for HT? Sideshow couldn't even sell out of theirs before the body and paint QC issues were identified.

I would say LFL license is the most valuable license currently.

 

[aussieinnyc]

LFL licensing would easily put a $150 to $180. Remember, Lucas makes his billions through merchandising and an LFL license is more valuable than a Predators license, a Marvel Iron Man license and dare I say even a Batman license. And again, it's a strawman's argument to say HT would do better. With Ford, especially at that price, it's a matter of nailing the headsculpt perfectly. Based on what I've seen from HT, beit Stark, Bruce Wayne or even Arnold, it's always "close enough" but not perfect. While that might work for a T-800, that won't work for Indy. Especially given that Sideshow has given us a perfect sculpt at half the price of what HT would be charging.

It is all pure speculation on both sides, I wholly agree. But despite that, would it even be a profitable adventure for HT? Sideshow couldn't even sell out of theirs before the body and paint QC issues were identified.

I fail to see how it's a strawman's argument. Granted, I hadn't heard the term before and needed to wikipedia it (yeah, I have no shame) so I may have it wrong, but from what I can see you are saying that HT have never nailed a sculpt as exactly as they would have to in order to have an acceptable Ford. Well, surely that's simply a matter of your own opinion, and to call my argument invalid based on it supposes a your opinion is fact. It's a trick I used often when debating - highlighting the lack of proof for an opponent's point of view to obscure the fact that yours has none either. Do it forcefully and with enough conviction and they get scared off and your point remains unrebutted. But it's a trick all the same. From my point of view, they have got enough sculpts close enough to the actor that I could be prepared to believe they would get Ford. Of course, the other difference is that - in my experience - the difference between the solicited product images and the production item for HT is minimal to none.

I respect all your points, I simply think that the only "truth" in your post is when you accept that it is "all speculation on both sides" - HT's ability to nail a sculpt, the license that LFL would charge resulting in a final price, etc etc. To your question about whether they could sell out of an Indy? Well, I think that there is a difference between customer opinion of Sideshow and HT. Unfortunately, due to inconsistent products, people have adopted (and, from what I can tell, had already adopted) a bit of a "wait and see" approach to Sideshow. They did sell out of the exclusive (that only came back in stock as cancellations started rolling in). Would the (and please note I use this word in very general terms hence the quotation marks) "failure" of SS Indy affect buyer and retailer confidence in a HT Indy? Possibly, and it might deter HT from an attempt. But how confident would I feel about saying the overall level of quality would be higher? 100%. And if you compare overall quality between SS and HT releases over all lines, while it's a subjective viewpoint I would suggest most people would come down on the side of HT.

 

[thenammagazine]

I fail to see how it's a strawman's argument. Granted, I hadn't heard the term before and needed to wikipedia it (yeah, I have no shame) so I may have it wrong, but from what I can see you are saying that HT have never nailed a sculpt as exactly as they would have to in order to have an acceptable Ford. Well, surely that's simply a matter of your own opinion, and to call my argument invalid based on it supposes a your opinion is fact. It's a trick I used often when debating - highlighting the lack of proof for an opponent's point of view to obscure the fact that yours has none either. Do it forcefully and with enough conviction and they get scared off and your point remains unrebutted. But it's a trick all the same. From my point of view, they have got enough sculpts close enough to the actor that I could be prepared to believe they would get Ford. Of course, the other difference is that - in my experience - the difference between the solicited product images and the production item for HT is minimal to none.

I respect all your points, I simply think that the only "truth" in your post is when you accept that it is "all speculation on both sides" - HT's ability to nail a sculpt, the license that LFL would charge resulting in a final price, etc etc. To your question about whether they could sell out of an Indy? Well, I think that there is a difference between customer opinion of Sideshow and HT. Unfortunately, due to inconsistent products, people have adopted (and, from what I can tell, had already adopted) a bit of a "wait and see" approach to Sideshow. They did sell out of the exclusive (that only came back in stock as cancellations started rolling in). Would the (and please note I use this word in very general terms hence the quotation marks) "failure" of SS Indy affect buyer and retailer confidence in a HT Indy? Possibly, and it might deter HT from an attempt. But how confident would I feel about saying the overall level of quality would be higher? 100%. And if you compare overall quality between SS and HT releases over all lines, while it's a subjective viewpoint I would suggest most people would come down on the side of HT.

It's not a matter of opinion. LFL licenses aren't cheap. Go into TRU and have a gander at LEGOs. Look at the cheapie adventure legos and then compare them with the Indy LEGOS. An airplane w/motorcycle will cost you $17.99. Indy airplane w/motorcycle, $29.99. That's the best I can do to show how much LFL licensing will jack up the cost of a product. And that's cheapy LEGOs, not high-end collectibles which would easily be more, given there's more value in it.

Let's now look at the headsculpts. We already know Trevor is the best in the business at Ford (among others). So Sideshow's got the money in the bank on that one. Someone may argue Arnie Kim, but his Indy didn't even come close to touching Trevor's. Looking at the last several sculpts HT's done, they've come extremely close to nailing a likeness, but (with the exception of Stallone's Barney - 6th or 7th try at Stallone mind you), they've come close. They've given up trying to nail Bruce Wayne's nose which throws that sculpt off. Dutch and T-800, while resembling Schwarzenegger, are too short. For some reason, they fail at lengthening the head. T1 T800 looks to follow suit despite being their 4th attempt. Linda Hamilton is also an "almost" on Sarah. The T-1000 as Sarah is not even in the ballpark. Robert Downey Jr. is also in that ballpark as "almost, but noooooooot quite there yet" Despite, what, 5 attempts now?! And the test Stark looks Asian! You'll have a HARD time pushing a figure at the $180 price point with an "almost" likeness. Especially given that there's one already available with a perfect likeness. While most here are poopooing the Sideshow figure, I guarantee you'll hear, "Wow...FAIL! $180 for a figure with Ford's stunt double headsculpt. Sideshow's was better at half the price!"

And asking about QC is subjective. Go ask the guys who're getting stiffed for faded paint apps on HT's BD Iron Man. Or pop in the "Is your DX02 showing signs of leaking?" thread and ask there. The only way HT will top Sideshow is with the base body and paint apps. And in the end, is that worth double the price? To fanboys, absolutely. To realists? Not so much.

 

[mfisher]

I gotta agree that if HT did finally put an Indy out there that it would most likely be the best offering in the market to date... I will agree that Indy's likeness is hard to nail, and I wholeheartedly believe that Trevor did a fantastic job for Sideshow's Indys... which is without question, in my mind, the best Ford likeness yet... so the sculpt quality would be a major issue.. but in terms of quality of clothing and gear.. I'd bet on HT... I am beyond thankful that Sideshow picked up this license and ran with it.. they have done some really good stuff with it.. but in the end I don't think a Sideshow Indy would hold up to a HT Indy considering how much HT has seriously upped their game as of late... ( have you seen the sculpts on the Platoon figures ?? Ironman's Whiplash, Predator Royce ?? awesome likenesses and great paint apps..) At the end of the day though.. pointless debate... until HT shows us an Indy why bother..

 

[aussieinnyc]

I gotta laugh. I'm sure Trevor's had his fails. Yulli has as well. IMO though she nailed the Godfather on her first attempt. You seem to be arguing the Arnold headsculpt fails because the body is the wrong length. That makes a whole load of sense. Again, if you want to refute my beliefs with your opinions I will welcome them with open arms. But if you plan on saying "Trevor's sculpt was a success. Hot Toys have had headsculpts that aren't a success. Therefore Hot Toys will not be successful at sculpting Indy" I will call your bull____ from here to eternity.

 

[thenammagazine]

I gotta laugh. I'm sure Trevor's had his fails. Yulli has as well. IMO though she nailed the Godfather on her first attempt. You seem to be arguing the Arnold headsculpt fails because the body is the wrong length. That makes a whole load of sense. Again, if you want to refute my beliefs with your opinions I will welcome them with open arms. But if you plan on saying "Trevor's sculpt was a success. Hot Toys have had headsculpts that aren't a success. Therefore Hot Toys will not be successful at sculpting Indy" I will call your bull____ from here to eternity.

Head sculpt. I said the headsculpt, not the body. The least you could do is read my post instead of briefing over it, given that I've trudged through both of your fanboy novella posts. The headsculpt for Arnold is not long enough. The face is smooshed. Dutch's face wasn't long enough. Neither are either of the T-800's. Believe me, as much as I hate to say this, it's the one and only area the NECAmpoops are right when comparing NECA's head to HotToys'. I'll give you the Godfather, but Brando's likeness isn't tough and to be honest, any inaccuracy there would easily be hidden under the umpteen liverspots they painted on the sculpt (and yes, I own it). Based on what I've seen with the more difficult likenesses, I have little faith HT could nail a Ford, just like they couldn't nail a Jackman. So call my bull____ all you want and I'll call your blind fanboy HT fanaticism from here to eternity. I can only pray they nail Reeve. If they don't that will be the biggest shortcoming they've had in a long, long time.

 

[Frank]

Is it too much to hope that the line might pick up again for the next "supposed" sequel? I'm pulling for a decent 1/6 Mola Ram. Sallah and Marion wouldn't hurt either.

 

[thenammagazine]

Is it too much to hope that the line might pick up again for the next "supposed" sequel? I'm pulling for a decent 1/6 Mola Ram. Sallah and Marion wouldn't hurt either.

Who knows? Sideshow wasn't even able to release Indy to capitalize on KOTCS's publicity.

 

[The Mike]

Honestly, if they do begin up again to try and capitalize on the new one the figures would be theoretically based on Old Indy and Mutt. A lot of people are still waiting for the perfect ROTLA Indy or a "Classic" Indy that other than Temple of Doom Sideshow would have to go against one of their major historical lines of not redoing or rereleasing a figure.

 

[SwedishHeat]

I don't fault them for not releasing Indiana Jones figures to time with publicity cycles, that's just terribly impossible to deal with numerous factors, things like approvals, factory schedules, travel time on the boat. The poor sales of the Indy figures had more to do with the fact that they just weren't very well done, and almost nothing to do with tying into the hype. Indiana Jones, if done well, can sell just as well as anything, barring Star Wars, of course. If Hot Toys can sell out of King Leonidas, 4 years after 300 was in theaters, Sideshow can sell out of a quality Indiana Jones figure. Indiana Jones should sell just as well as Vito Corleone or the T-800, all are icons of cinema. 2 of those are selling at a premium on eBay, and 1 is selling below retail. And it's not because of a lack of hype, it's because of lack of craftsmanship.

In short, waiting for a new movie to stimulate sales is hogwash. If Sideshow had knocked out a home run with Raiders Indy, this thread wouldn't exist, and we'd probably be looking at a shelf with Mola Ram, ToD Indy and Sallah along with the figures that DO exist.

 

[thenammagazine]

I don't fault them for not releasing Indiana Jones figures to time with publicity cycles, that's just terribly impossible to deal with numerous factors, things like approvals, factory schedules, travel time on the boat. The poor sales of the Indy figures had more to do with the fact that they just weren't very well done, and almost nothing to do with tying into the hype. Indiana Jones, if done well, can sell just as well as anything, barring Star Wars, of course. If Hot Toys can sell out of King Leonidas, 4 years after 300 was in theaters, Sideshow can sell out of a quality Indiana Jones figure. Indiana Jones should sell just as well as Vito Corleone or the T-800, all are icons of cinema. 2 of those are selling at a premium on eBay, and 1 is selling below retail. And it's not because of a lack of hype, it's because of lack of craftsmanship.

In short, waiting for a new movie to stimulate sales is hogwash. If Sideshow had knocked out a home run with Raiders Indy, this thread wouldn't exist, and we'd probably be looking at a shelf with Mola Ram, ToD Indy and Sallah along with the figures that DO exist.

I beg to differ and comparing HT to Sideshow is apples and oranges. I wouldn't be surprised if Sideshow produced double, if not triple, the edition size of Indy than HT did of any of the ones you mentioned. To some extent the QC is to blame, I won't say it isn't, but if you're going to produce a hard sale like Indy, you need to be doing so when the hype is there. As for ToD Indy and Sallah, that goes back to Sideshow's poor handling of the license which is another issue entirely. Likely, if they'd made Sallah and Marion in the beginning, as well as a Belloq in adventure gear, even despite the QC issues, I don't think the line would be struggling. Instead, we got a Belloq sans likeness, a dull Ark and a plain Jane Indy in German Disguise racked up in price. Cap that off with a KOTCS bobblehead and it's a no brainer why Indy's a hard sale. But despite all that, if the line had been announced and released when people were piling into the theatres for KOTCS to the sum of $400+ million, Sideshow would've easily sold product.

 

[The Josh]

Yeah, timing I think was a big issue for Indy. It like LOTR needs to have something heating the burners. Both licenses have lots of core fans but need those bandwagon fans to push things. There where some QC issues but the line itself is pretty awesome. Raiders Indy while the paint could have been better I still love it and for me personally I got no issues at all with KOTCS Indy. The Indy to me that had issues was German just because it didn't come with enough.

 

[Mad Old Lu]

Yep. you'd be surprised at the power of hype and bandwagons. Just look at any boy band/teeny bopper flash-in-the-pan!

If they would have released ROTLA Indy before KOTCS, and the rest of the figures around the same time as the movie's release, they would have all sold out, regardless of quality.

Of course, the fact that the movie was a letdown was also a major factor in the line faltering.

Personally, I'm with Josh--pretty happy with the whole line except for German Indy's price.

 

[The Josh]

Hype is a very big deal. The boy band comparison is a pretty good one.

Oh I think the movie was a let down to certain folks. I actually like it more than TOD.

 

[thenammagazine]

Hype is a very big deal. The boy band comparison is a pretty good one.

Oh I think the movie was a let down to certain folks. I actually like it more than TOD.

I dunno. With as much as people talk about the film being a letdown, the box office gross tells a different story. That kinda cash is earned through repeat viewings. So Lucy's got some splanin' to do!

 

[The Josh]

I agree. As a whole I don't think it could be that much of a let down as much money as it made but some for reasons that have been stated feel let down. For me personally I think the film is good and fits with series.

 

[aussieinnyc]

I don't fault them for not releasing Indiana Jones figures to time with publicity cycles, that's just terribly impossible to deal with numerous factors, things like approvals, factory schedules, travel time on the boat. The poor sales of the Indy figures had more to do with the fact that they just weren't very well done, and almost nothing to do with tying into the hype.

I agree with you that poor sales were partially to do with poor quality of the final product, but it's rubbish that it's impossible to tie a figure release into a film release time table. It is pure project management skills, and if the big kids over at Mattel can do it, there is no reason that SS couldn't either. Major films have a release date that is set in stone and set in stone a LONG way off. You simply need to manage your staff and suppliers to that known date. If they miss it, there are contractual implications that mean they lose a percentage of what they are due to be paid. And as for the things out of SS control like approvals and transport/release through customs, they know how much time that usually takes - so they should give themselves a 50% time buffer and there would be no problem.

In some ways I think SS still has the mentality of a company being run out of some guy's garage. The problem with companies like that is that the people who start them end up at the top with not necessarily any business training - they can run it adequately, but not optimally.