Iron Man question.
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this thread is a joke...Isnt defeating evil the whole point of a superhero. whether that means killing or not. the only reason why joker didnt die in TDK was because they were going to bring him back in later movies. i personally think they shoulda cut the movie (after ledgers death) to make it so he falls therefore BATMAN would of killed him. If superheros dont kill the villians in the movies i guess you think committing suicide (for the villians) is ok right? ie: doc oc, venom the list goes on...i believe the x men kill people (do you have a problem with those movies too?) i would advise you not to see the up coming wolverine movie...with his claws people will tend to die...they arent for scratching their for stabbinso what if he killed terrorist with bullets oh no..so i take it you think Osama deserves a fair and just trial??? haha no he deserves to be shot in between the eyes by the first marine that sees him with freaking 50 cal.
Batman doesnt kill people. Iron Man does. Superman doesnt kill people, Wolverine does.
Batman killing the Joker would've ruined the entire point of the movie. So....
The Mike
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The fact that Krypto you are saying "to me" is leaving it open for people to interpret it was just your lens. Nolan has his set of problems with the Batman films as well as his successes. Some have a serious problem with the absence of duality in BB and the forced pushing of it in TDK. Its almost as if he has to be reminded to keep the duality while in the comics it is a conclusion that Bruce has without prompt because he knows what it will take to exist.
Bringing up Comics is ABSOLUTELY necessary because its the source material. It allows to show the strengths as well as the weaknesses based on the concept of the character. The character was created in the 1960s and in that interpretation as well he kills to be released and the film stays true to that not being afraid of it because of the ratings system. Since Batman seems to be your foothold in heroism remember that "Pre-Crisis" Batman killed multiple times from snapping necks, to throwing people in acid, to tossing crooks in front of a train. Its a muddled history but its history.
These characters didn't not spring to life from the mind of a screenwriter and looking at the film in a bubble in terms of judging the character and its stature in the superhero world is like judging someone who has been alive for 40 years by two hours of their life in a snapshot. Makes no sense at all.
You can argue that the filmmakers were shortsighted in their portrayal of Tony Stark especially considering how complex the character really is but then again you'd have to explain how and you don't seem to have the source knowledge to do so, this is why you are getting so much opposition because you are judging the character through rose colored blinders instead of arguing just the points of the film. They are not the same and you saying that they are is not only nonsense but also still pushing your thoughts and ideals to be accepted as fact.
Not one time other than saying he was my favorite character did I ever interject my thoughts on the film or thoughts on whether or not Stark was portrayed accurately. Was he done justice? Definitely, are there pitfalls? Of course but to keep the conversation based on facts and points I argued from Comic Book Knowledge, what we saw on films and antedotal information that shows it relevance to argue the point. Never once have I tried to sway anyone and that makes all the difference when arguing points and attempting to have a serious dialogue.
Bringing up Comics is ABSOLUTELY necessary because its the source material. It allows to show the strengths as well as the weaknesses based on the concept of the character. The character was created in the 1960s and in that interpretation as well he kills to be released and the film stays true to that not being afraid of it because of the ratings system. Since Batman seems to be your foothold in heroism remember that "Pre-Crisis" Batman killed multiple times from snapping necks, to throwing people in acid, to tossing crooks in front of a train. Its a muddled history but its history.
These characters didn't not spring to life from the mind of a screenwriter and looking at the film in a bubble in terms of judging the character and its stature in the superhero world is like judging someone who has been alive for 40 years by two hours of their life in a snapshot. Makes no sense at all.
You can argue that the filmmakers were shortsighted in their portrayal of Tony Stark especially considering how complex the character really is but then again you'd have to explain how and you don't seem to have the source knowledge to do so, this is why you are getting so much opposition because you are judging the character through rose colored blinders instead of arguing just the points of the film. They are not the same and you saying that they are is not only nonsense but also still pushing your thoughts and ideals to be accepted as fact.
Not one time other than saying he was my favorite character did I ever interject my thoughts on the film or thoughts on whether or not Stark was portrayed accurately. Was he done justice? Definitely, are there pitfalls? Of course but to keep the conversation based on facts and points I argued from Comic Book Knowledge, what we saw on films and antedotal information that shows it relevance to argue the point. Never once have I tried to sway anyone and that makes all the difference when arguing points and attempting to have a serious dialogue.
El Skutto
Super Freak
I was under the impression that a hero is someone who does what needs to be done for the greater good, regardless of their own personal beliefs or fears. And yes, that includes killing under certain circumstances. That's why veterans are considered heroes - because they risk and sacrifice their lives in order to save the folks back home, regardless of their own feelings and fears.
As for Batman, I've always wondered how he sleeps at night. I mean, he upheld his strict moral code by never killing the Joker, but how many innocent civilians has the Joker killed since their first encounter? Easily hundreds. If it were me, knowing that my personal beliefs were responsible for the deaths of so many innocents, I'd be hard pressed NOT to kill the guy the next time I saw him. I used Batman as an example, but that argument could apply to any comic book hero who adheres to a no-killing policy.
Sometimes, people just need to be killed in order to be stopped. It really is that simple.
To the TC, I would recommend that you find comics and heroes that appeal to your own personal beliefs, but leave your criticisms of other people's heroes at home. I'd never read a Batman or Superman book, but I don't judge the people who do. I just buy my copy of Judge Dredd and the Punisher and accept that not everyone has the same tastes or morals that I do.
As for Batman, I've always wondered how he sleeps at night. I mean, he upheld his strict moral code by never killing the Joker, but how many innocent civilians has the Joker killed since their first encounter? Easily hundreds. If it were me, knowing that my personal beliefs were responsible for the deaths of so many innocents, I'd be hard pressed NOT to kill the guy the next time I saw him. I used Batman as an example, but that argument could apply to any comic book hero who adheres to a no-killing policy.
Sometimes, people just need to be killed in order to be stopped. It really is that simple.
To the TC, I would recommend that you find comics and heroes that appeal to your own personal beliefs, but leave your criticisms of other people's heroes at home. I'd never read a Batman or Superman book, but I don't judge the people who do. I just buy my copy of Judge Dredd and the Punisher and accept that not everyone has the same tastes or morals that I do.
Nuka Cola Kidd
Super Freak
why? just curious..did the 89 version get ruined? with the joker dying..i dunno what you mean by point of the movie..what point..
I agree. And he might feel flat silly about taking any of the Batman themes quite that seriously if he's read a certain graphic novel written by a bearded British bard.
Krypto
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The Mike said:
The film is the film. While it is based on a comic book, it has to stand on its own as a single story. Bring up the comics all you want, but it makes no difference in a discussion of the film itself.
I'm discussing the film exclusively. Not the comics or anything else because I haven't read them. It wouldn't be right of me to discuss something that I know little about. But I've seen the film and I've given my thoughts on the film and the character and how contradictory the film is in its message and philosophy. And I've not once tried to say anything I've said is a fact and I'm certainly not pushing it on anyone. If anything, it's the exact opposite. All I've really got are some posts from you about the comic which I've tried in vain to argue and spartan about a friend of his, neither of which really concerning the film that much, and the rest of the people in this thread are more concerned with how "awesome" and "cool" it is that Iron Man blew a bunch of dirty no good terrorists up.
El Skutto said:
I love the Punisher comics written by Garth Ennis. They're beautifully and painfully funny and dark and violent as all get out, just the way the Punisher should be. And they're exceedingly well written. Which brings me back to my problem with the film. It's just not that good of a film. It's all over the place in its message and philosophy, the score is terrible, and the plotting near the end reminds me more of a Power Rangers episode than a feature film. And the other thing is that Frank Castle is not a superhero. He doesn't have powers or gadgets or armored suits or disguises. He's pure and that's what I like about him. And he does have a moral code that he's very strict about. Certainly it's not politically correct, but he does have beliefs and morals and stands up for them and the comics follow through in that respect with his character and personal philosophy.
Iron Man wears a mask, an armored suit, and has gadgets galore. And yet, he has no real moral code except shoot first and ask questions later, a philosophy that simply doesn't apply in the real world without some repercussions. If the movie had given his tactics a failing point where he would have to answer for what he's done, whether physically or internally, then the film would go a long way in making some sense. But unfortunately, the film stays safely in the Rambo with gadgets vein of silly fake heroics.
And contrary to what Irish said, I'm not a pacifist at all. Of course some of you would actually have to put your thinking caps on and read a post or two to discover that, which I know...takes up a lot of your time, but you may want to consider doing so in the future.
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Krypto
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https://www.clanpot.com/cannibas/****/450px-Irony.jpg
At least you can be somewhat of a good sport about it and play along.
Krypto
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At least you can be somewhat of a good sport about it and play along.
There was a reason I put the wink face at the end.
Although discussions may get heated, I want to keep it as cordial as I can. After all, we're all here because we love genre entertainment and collecting memorabilia from said entertainment. So we all have that in common.
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If Superman killed Lex in Superman Returns, that would've made the movie for me. I'd love to see Superman punch someone's head right off.
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THIS GUY RULES!!! I am with ya bro...punch that ^^^^ers head off!
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RIGHT THE ^^^^ OFF!
The Mike
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That photo is a fan made image. There was a Favreau approved War Machine concept for the first that was cut here:
Although Favreau has said in a recent interview that he is starting the War Machine concept over again.
The Mike
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I guess then in reality I cannot have a real dialogue with you about this because you are refusing to introduce or awknowledge facts from the comics. Since I'm well versed in the Comics and different origins and details of his character its difficult to separate them because I know the foundational reasonings. Either way, I appreciate the actual conversation that was allowed to occur in here for the most part.
Krypto
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I guess then in reality I cannot have a real dialogue with you about this because you are refusing to introduce or awknowledge facts from the comics. Since I'm well versed in the Comics and different origins and details of his character its difficult to separate them because I know the foundational reasonings. Either way, I appreciate the actual conversation that was allowed to occur in here for the most part.
It's not that I'm refusing to acknowledge the comics existence, it's just that this is about the film itself, which has to stand on its own outside of the comic book mythology. And since I have no experience with the Iron Man comic, it puts me at a disadvantage as well. So it's basically just you talking to yourself about how good the comic is, which gives me nothing to discuss.
Trust me, I know where you're coming from though. It's hard for me to discuss a Superman film without bringing up the comics in someway.
