My issues with KOTCS

[Wor-Gar]

I loved ORCA when I was a kid.

I saw it too, but it wasn't JAWS. I don't remember it too well -- except the Orca tipping the iceberg so Harris would slide down into his mouth... and Bo Derek... and that horrible superimposed shot of the whale breaching that was overused.

Gremlins I actually liked in 1984 but I agree that today I would find it almost impossible to sit through.

1984 sticks with me as the first year in many that my favorite summer movie was not a Spielberg or Lucas creation but was GHOSTBUSTERS. Before that you have to go all the way back to 1979's ALIEN to beat out Lucas/Spielberg.

 

[JAWS]

Strangely enough I hated Temple when it first came out. I re-watched it about a year ago and I'm surprised at how much I like it now. It's not a perfect movie, but Harrison is better in that film than anything in the last 10 or 15 years.

Harrison went on boring mode when he made Frantic. He started to deliver all his lines in this monotone voice that would put me to sleep.

Just watch

Frantic
Working girl
TLC
Presumed Innocent
Patriot Games
The Fugative
Clear and Present Danger
Sabrina (man I hated him in that.. Soooooo boring)
The Devil's Own

He actually started showing signs of this in Return of the Jedi but had a few good preformances before Frantic.

That is not to say all those films are bad. I enjoy several of them. But he is basically the same monotone talking character in each.

He came out of his shell a bit for Air Force One and then in all honesty I started to miss most of his films. But I did really enjoy him in Cowboys and Aliens though the film itself was average.

 

[JAWS]

I saw it too, but it wasn't JAWS. I don't remember it too well -- except the Orca tipping the iceberg so Harris would slide down into his mouth... and Bo Derek... and that horrible superimposed shot of the whale breaching that was overused.

Gremlins I actually liked in 1984 but I agree that today I would find it almost impossible to sit through.

1984 sticks with me as the first year in many that my favorite summer movie was not a Spielberg or Lucas creation but was GHOSTBUSTERS. Before that you have to go all the way back to 1979's ALIEN to beat out Lucas/Spielberg.

Ah Ghostbusters! What a year for films 1984 was. Still not my fav. year. That goes to 1982 but 1984 has to be # 2.

 

[Kamandi]

The last movie I saw Ford in where I thought he seemed to be trying as an actor was The Mosquito Coast. Not a great movie, but at least he's not sleep walking through it.

 

[JAWS]

I saw it too, but it wasn't JAWS. I don't remember it too well -- except the Orca tipping the iceberg so Harris would slide down into his mouth....

Not a JAWS rip off at all

 

[JAWS]

The last movie I saw Ford in where I thought he seemed to be trying as an actor was The Mosquito Coast. Not a great movie, but at least he's not sleep walking through it.

Well you would be right as Frantic was his next film

 

[bbl]

I agree with jaws and some of the other members here. Personally, i liked the first hour too. The gophers/prairy dogs were lame. I liked the first gopher though, cause it was an inside joke for indy fans.

Liked the first action scene where we figure out that his best friend is a traitor. Gives the story more depth. Too bad the character loses every bit of sympathy in the rest of the movie. Badly written. I also liked the ark cameo and the fact that indy gets old and doesn't make his swing. We also see indy get hurt. His foe is younger and stronger which promises a good fight later on.

Next up the hated nuke scene. I loved it and here is why: i thought it was a moment when spielberg said, he it's just a movie. Enjoy it. Yeah it was over the top and the gopher was bull***, but it is the beginning of an adventure which litterly begins with a bang .

Then comes the unfolding of the story and enjoyed the action scene and it was followed by a great indy scolar moment. The scene where indy discovers the nazga lines is great. Really liked the chemistry here and the 'what are you, like 80?

Then they go to peru, still enjoying and on to the graveyard. I find the guardians hard to believe here and they felt out of place. Ever wondering the graveyard waiting for that one adventurer coming for the skull? Yeah right, guess they were on strike when oxley came.

Next i enjoyed the tombscenee. Nice interactions.

Then when they get captured, things turn from bad to worst. Lame jokes, weak plots, sorry to cause i liked the character of marion, she was demented. Everything was a joke and taken lightly. Deaththreats from russians, smile, he's our son, smileee, escape from russions, smilllleeeee, my son almost gets killer by a russian swordmaster, GD smile!!!!

Have to say that the action scene was awesomeeee. Spielberg at his best. Yes the cgi was not that great but the can direct action. To bad indy was a cameo in his own movie and that there was no real danger. Oh and don't get me started on the tarzanscene. Just don't! Don't want to talk about, cause i hated every second off it.

Then the antscene. I liked it. There was a lot to like here. Too bad they ruined the scene with the part that the ants formed some stairs to get to spalko. That was not normal flesheating behavior . I liked the fight.

Then the drops from waterfalls were pretty silly. I liked the temple scenes, but the appearance of the guys coming out of the walls was stupid. The rest felt like an indy movie.

Overall the movie was ok, but like jaws said, the middle was pretty bad. I liked the alien story because i've seen a lot documentarys about these things. Like the egyptians and ufos. I think the movie was better on paper, cause the idea itself was good. They just shouldn't have shown the grey alien. Just the skeletons was enough. It was a mystery and kept me wondering what would they look like, until that image was ruined by a standard design.

The movie wasn't as bad as a lot people say. It has it moments, but after 20 years people expected more. Same with star wars. We had a lot of time of imagining things and they were not happening. Liked the third one though but that is another book of text .

Best,

Robert

 

[JAWS]

Well thought out bbl. I just disagree with calling the jungle action scene great. It just fails to entertain me in any way.

 

[Mad Old Lu]

Harrison went on boring mode when he made Frantic. He started to deliver all his lines in this monotone voice that would put me to sleep...

But I did really enjoy him in Cowboys and Aliens though the film itself was average.

I agree 100%. I thought HF was great in C&A. That character was what I imagined old man Indy would be like. Angry and bitter, but still a man of action.

As far as TOD, I LOVED it when I saw it at age 11 when it came out in 1984. It hasn't aged too well for me, but I think it's still a good companion to Raiders. I agree with the terrible intercutting with something serious and something funny, which undermines any danger in the scenes. But I can kind of forgive it because I can see that they felt the humor was necessary to offset the dark tone of the film. But just take a second to imagine the movie play out without those intercuts, think specifically at the scene at the dinner table. If it was just Indy, the British soldier and the Indian guy all talking--it would be a much more solid scene and a better movie.

 

[swsqueakquels]

The circus train, as Khev pointed out.

Let's explain where Indy gets his fear of snakes, uses a whip, gets his scar, gets the hat and even a hint at the origin of his nickname (the dog)... all in one childhood incident. Lame.

I'm amazed you remember this level of detail - I saw the movie once at Mann's Chinese in 1989 and have seen it maybe once (like on TV only half paying attention, not start to finish) since.

My cinematic experience of TLC is probably best summed up by the fact I liked it about as much as Ghostbusters II, which was in the same summer.

I'm a huge Indy fan, but TLC exists only in stills and clips to me - and it's a far better movie for it. It has some nice visuals and HF looks as cool in it as he did in ROTLA and I intellectually like the idea of Connery being his dad.

 

[SAB]

What annoys me is that its close and Spielberg and Lucas should have known better.

'Nuking the fridge' was fine but needed to be the end of the movie.
Thats basic storytelling 101. You don't put something that can never be topped as the opening sequence.
Would have been quite happy to have a 'fake out' ending where you think the movie ends just like Raiders at the warehouse ....but then realize the finale is a big finale scene there including the A-bomb explosion.

Tone down 3 scenes:
- monkey vine swinging
- tone it down. Mutt isn't tarzan....
- savages coming out of the walls
- just have them be in hiding, not part of the structure....
- Happily driving off a cliff
- needs to be accidental or forced...
All 3 of these scenes could have been useable and still in the vain of Indy movies. It was their execution that was bad

Change the original ending to the skull being taken to the warehouse to set up the Abomb scene finale.

Also, add in the original opening from the 'City of Gods' (early Crystal Skull script) which features an old professor Indy in the library and a parody of the Raiders boulder scene but with falling book cases ....great opening and connection with the original movie

(and inserts nicely because we've moved the A bomb to the end)


And done.
You've got yourself a good fourth Indy movie.

 

[Kamandi]

It's a shame the A-bomb scene could have been cool without the refrigerator flying through the air. There had to be a better way to write that.

Every stunt in Crystal Skull had a gag or a forced laugh attached to it. Raiders didn't do that. The truck scene in Raiders still kicks ass because it 1) uses real stunt-work 2) has lots of tension without a comedic moment undermining the moment.

Maybe the worst thing about KOTCS is finding out Indy had a distinguished military history and we skipped it. That sounded like the far better story and we only know about it from a line or two of dialogue.

 

[bbl]

Well what i meant to say i was viewing it as an action scene. Not an indy scene. The sequences themself were great and if it were a pirates of the carribean movie we'd all be laughing out loud if silly jack sparrow was swinging vines while some other character was swordfighting. The problem kotcs was we as an audience didn't know mutt. We didn't know he was an athlete. Suddenly he is swordfighting (which he referred to as something he used to do, not him being a master) and swining around like monkey. The scene itself should have funny. It just featured the wrong movie.

Thinking about the bad part of the movie i think it felt like a reunion. It seems the actors had a lot of fun together with spielberg and they all got caried away making a lot of scenes so simple. They are supposed to be fun, but those were serious monents lifethreatening moments.

As mentioned here the raiders truck scene was similar but far more serious. It featured a funny moment with indy using the trees to get rid of the soldiers but indy was seriously in danger and he knew it.

As for tod, it was my first indy movie and i love it until this day. Yeah it can be silly but it's a lot of fun. I love the beginning of the minecartscene where indy hits the tuggee of the cart, he smiles and gets punched in the face. Great comedic timing. I watched all the indy movies with my 14 year old niece and although she said raiders was the better movie, she had most fun with tod. She loved short round. He was this little tough kid and was fun to watch. Willy, too much screaming. Mola ram, one of the best villains.

Coming back to kotcs and george lucas. I don't understand both taking that much beatings. Kotcs is entertaining for the most part except for the non emotional acted, unfunny, indy cameolike scenes.

George lucas deserves critisimn on some of his changes to star wars. I agree with most of the first changes cause otherwise star wars would have been very dated now. The noooo...george why dude? Having said that i liked the idea of kotcs and more importly, the man has created two of my most favorite movie franchises. Why bash the guy? My childhood was about adventuring and star wars toys. Without his stories i wouldn't have enjoyed these. I also liked labyrint as a kid. Doesn't hold up so well now, but when i was a kid i loved it. I think it's a sad thing that lucas stepped down, but i can imagine after so much hatred thrown at you, i'd quit too. The man has more money and doesn't need to make movies anymore. He did with kotcs and was not appriciated for it. We all feel indy and star wars are ours, yet we fell in love with his stories as kids. Maybe we've all grown up too much to simply enjoy and live them anymore.

Best,

Robert

Ps. *****k you frank marshall, i want more indy movies!

Well thought out bbl. I just disagree with calling the jungle action scene great. It just fails to entertain me in any way.

 

[EXOTICLEX]

I remember seeing Orca as a kid and thinking "damn, I better not cross Shamu."

 

[bbl]

This al being said i understand lucas ruining his credit due to a lot that has happened, these are his movies. But still, I think fanboys should get a life and just watch the unchanged movies on vcr or the unedited version on the dvd in stead off making their own versions of the films.

Best,

Robert

 

[a-dev]

What annoys me is that its close and Spielberg and Lucas should have known better.

'Nuking the fridge' was fine but needed to be the end of the movie.
Thats basic storytelling 101. You don't put something that can never be topped as the opening sequence.
Would have been quite happy to have a 'fake out' ending where you think the movie ends just like Raiders at the warehouse ....but then realize the finale is a big finale scene there including the A-bomb explosion.

Tone down 3 scenes:
- monkey vine swinging
- tone it down. Mutt isn't tarzan....
- savages coming out of the walls
- just have them be in hiding, not part of the structure....
- Happily driving off a cliff
- needs to be accidental or forced...
All 3 of these scenes could have been useable and still in the vain of Indy movies. It was their execution that was bad

Change the original ending to the skull being taken to the warehouse to set up the Abomb scene finale.

Also, add in the original opening from the 'City of Gods' (early Crystal Skull script) which features an old professor Indy in the library and a parody of the Raiders boulder scene but with falling book cases ....great opening and connection with the original movie

(and inserts nicely because we've moved the A bomb to the end)


And done.
You've got yourself a good fourth Indy movie.

Aww that City of Gods opening sounds great.

Personally I've always enjoyed the humour in the Indy films and that would have been pretty funny. Not funny is Marion intentionally driving the whole gang off a cliff and giggling while she does it. You're right though, if that had occurred with them being forced into it with no alternative and their survival of it being a 'happy accident' it would have been more acceptable - sorta like the jumping out of plane on a raft in TOD or the waterfall drops later on in KOTCS. Although Marion continuing to laugh at the latter once again spoiled that. It just made her come across as insane. No mother would find that stuff funny when her sons life is in danger.

 

[Khev]

Although Marion continuing to laugh at the latter once again spoiled that. It just made her come across as insane. No mother would find that stuff funny when her sons life is in danger.

You guys keep reminding me of how bad the Marion scenes were in KOTCS. It's almost like she was in an SNL skit with Jimmy Fallon and couldn't stop laughing but they just kept filming anyway.

 

[choopie]

It's clear that KOTCS was never intended to be a serious film, yet we expected it to be. KOTCS=TPM, IMO, geared to another generation of kids to introduce them to the world of Indiana Jones, much like SW. For me, it was alot easier accepting the faults of the other films because I saw Raiders from the get-go and then grew up right alongside the other movies. Then there's this huge time gap with KOTCS and I'm sitting there going wtf? Lucas was saying to veteran Indy fans, you grew up with Indy, now take your kids to see this one. KOTCS wasn't meant for me. I get that and because of that, I can easily let it go.

 

[steveo]

Tone down 3 scenes:

- Happily driving off a cliff
- needs to be accidental or forced...

This would have totally been an Indy moment if he forced a reluctant Marion off the cliff. This would have given this scene the more imminent danger it needed.

Again, I blame this all on the writer. I really think Speilberg and Ford were just going along with the script because Lucas wouldn't change his mind.

 

[jye4ever]

Raiders = Perfect 100%
TOD = Good 80%
TLC = Average 65%
KOTCS = Bad 25%