Oh man.... So many posts, all so interesting!! This business strategy thing is so damn intriguing!! Let's see:
We got Maul from "Solo" last month and Sith Trooper got a "early release" version during SDCC. I don't see HT loosing the STar Wars licence anytime soon.
HT are clearly putting most of their efforts on the hot licence that is Marvel right now but will eventually return to Star Wars comes december. Besides, there were a few prototypes based on OT and PT on show floors this summer and, even though some will never see production, we'll likely see a few offered in the coming months.
This.
We should all subscribe to all those RVSPs on SSC's site. Are there any for the Jawas+energy droid? And for Wicket? We need more ewoks...
And that starfighter.....
If it is true about the Sideshow Star Wars license it makes you wonder if it is also affecting the SW releases by HT. I just scrolled a loooong way back on the FB webpage. Anyone recall what the last SW pre-order was ?
Seems it was Qui-Gon, back in March ! Now I know Avengers has been the flavour of the year, but March to August for their second largest franchise is a bit too long....
But HT have delivered the Deluxe Stormtrooper, Dooku and the DX Maul way ahead their intended delivery schedule, haven't they? It is so at least wrt my retailer's advertised delivery schedule (and to my exasperation). They did the same with ROTC Obi-Wan, as far as I remember. Am I wrong?
And as said before they have recently started taking pre-orders for Solo Maul. They are busy with SW behind the curtains and really kicking things out of the way, but for what?
Next year's ESB 40th anniversary?
It does look like they lost the license completely. I don’t see why ‘negotiations’ would drag out as they apparently renew licenses every year.
Do they? Every year? How do you know that?
Exactly, I don't think they will do that. They are not a public company so bad news like that won't be disclosed. If the renewal their license, they will disclose it.
I don’t think they’d necessarily go public with something like that. Why would they want to advertise that they lost a license, especially one as popular as Star Wars? It would likely cause people to lose faith in their brand and products to an extent by doing so.
Precisely to keep us from doing what we are doing right now: especulate that Sideshow might be facing death, feeling bad and pessimistic for way too long, etc.
Not good for business.
If people are going to know (and they certainly will), you want to be the one that tells them, always highlighting the silver lining, even if there is none.
It is a PR war that is going to be fought against you unavoidably and you'd better at least take part in it.
Another aspect of this crisis that nags me: I don't know if it was pointed out on this thread or on the SDCC'19 especulation one, but this idea that SSC's figs were always inferior to HT's in terms of quality, particularly sculpting and painting... I mean, SSC is so strong on the statue/bust arena, and man those are some sculpt and paint jobs, so how come they couldn't bring those very same artists to pull some great head sculpts from time to time? Granted, SSC stuff is always quite a bit comic-ish and unrealistic, but the skill on display on those statues, with aspects like anatomy, hair or clothing so brilliantly executed... man those guys should be able to pull absolutely ***-kicking 1/6 parts! So why didn't they?? Why those head sculpts always with likenesses so off? I guess these artists might be much more expensive that their Chinese counterparts, but we are just talking about a tiny 1/6 head sculpt, not one of those huge statues filled with highly detailed surfaces and parts. And even if their work was much more expensive than the same work made by a Chinese artist, how important is that prototyping cost within the scope of an edition size of 3000 units, at $250+ per unit? What can a HS proto made by an American sculptor cost? $500 at the very highest? We are talking way more than $750.000 in revenue for only one release in one franchise within one market segment. I think $500 should be OK as an expense to achieve that revenue.
Well... What do I know...
HT doesn’t fall under the SS license. I know people under the LFL umbrella. SS flat out won’t say they lost the license. They’re still negotiating. Nothing official but I’m 99% sure they haven’t lost it. They’d be foolish to not renew.
Any sources for that? Because in the real business world, negotiations are normally undertaken and finished before they have an impact on operations and PR.
BTW I agree with you: I don't think they lost it. Why getting rid of something that can be financially sound as long as you don't do stupid ****?
As much as we like to pile on Sideshow, I'd be bummed not to see any more SW 1/6 figures from them after their long history with the franchise, so hopefully it will get renewed.
I hear you, but honestly: I don't like piling on any manufacturer unless they deserve it.
SSC dropping 1/6 is like an uncle dying. They have given us precious things that we didn't expect anybody else would ever give us. That being said, and assuming SSC has actually called it quits on 1/6, I believe that in the long run, HT will eventually redo everything SSC has done, only better. This is such a long and winding road...
Yeah, would be good news if they managed to hold on to the license. But it would be nice if they carved out a different niche/deal that complements rather than competes with Hot Toys. I don't need ROTJ Luke figures from both companies. If they were relegated to 2nd-tier characters, their licensing fee (however that stuff works) should reflect that.
What if it was precisely that what is going on behind the curtain? Anyways, as I have already said, why didn't they discuss this with Disney before especulation started? Besides, they have a homerun of sorts with the 1/6 Mythos range. I'd like to get Mythos Vader. I am sure some would like to get Mythos Maul on 1/6, in spite of HT's Solo Maul. They should land a deal that allows them to go deeper into Mythos.
Honestly why should anyone care at this point? They haven’t put forth the effort in a long time. They’ve released a few figures a year tops for a while now, and they’re never all that impressive and are always incredibly overpriced with the most bare minimum accessories possible.
Sideshow fell into trying to release figures almost seeming like they wanted to compete with Hot Toys, but they never really delivered. A case could be made for them more if they actually released unique things that Hot Toys likely won’t do or won’t do as much (more aliens and creatures), but releasing second rate figures of characters is just a waste of their time and our money (for those that still are sucked into buying their stuff).
So true. They have to play to their strengths, which exist (Mythos, small releases of beloved secondary characters and accessories). And do it wholeheartedly instead of halfassedly. That ROTJ Luke, even though it was useful for me, shouldn't even had been thought of in the first place, while those Bounty Hunters and the 2 mythos releases thus far, in my view, are great contributions. Anyway, as I already said, in time HT will cover all of SW. They have what it takes to nail any character, and they know that demand for lesser items (bounty hunters, soldiers, beasts, vehicles) is slowly gathering. I was amazed when HT teased Anakin, such a controversial character of such a controversial trilogy. I though they would never venture into that hot water. And they are going deep into PT, which is every bit as hated as it is loved. HT has done lots of stormtroopers (silly porcelain ones too), released many anonymous soldiers and clones, a set of jedis are in the works, and that is proof that they will eventually do it all. We only have to give them time (and our money).
If only we fans pushed together to take HT through the path we want them to go.... and if only HT should take SW really seriously... :-(
I would even be willing to go as far as to say they didn't "lose" the license, rather they very likely chose not to renew it.
They can't compete with HT. They just can't. And for them to charge in excess of HT prices for figures that don't compare to 10 year ago HT quality, they're not going to sell product. I would be willing to bet that they will be giving away that ROTJ Luke eventually because it'll simply be languishing stock.
That might be out of their hands for a lot of reasons, but I do know that US figure companies have a hard time competing for manufacturing space in China, with preference given to home grown and Eastern countries. This absolutely raises costs and development time.
So in reality, SS might have just weighed out that with HT making a significantly superior product, they are better set letting the market go. Their Marvel 1/6 will suffer the same if HT begins to do comic-esque stuff (through avenues like the Spidey game).
All that to be said, I think SS is oblivious to what the market wants. Dioramas, environments, and accessories are all things they not only do, but do pretty well. Furthermore aliens and creatures is a sorely needed part of 1/6 SW. A line focused to flesh out the SW world at a price around $190 +/- $20 a figure would have been a killer market.
Agreed, Jedi Luke was a stupid move, and SSC should smarten up and give us amazing and useful environments that we could use with many different figure releases (just as they used to do in the past, and smaller Chinese players still do today!!!) but SSC has done many things right and they could compete with, and beat HT in terms of financial success, hands down. Unfortunately, it would take a lot:
a) The strong will and commitment to become "the Apple of high-end collectibles" through a strong IP portfolio plus R+D+i.
b) A lot of cash to buy themselves a bunch of Nanjins and their own Chinese factory (Trekkies in the room know what I am talking about and what Nanjin has explained about Chinese factories billing more to overseas costumers than to domestic ones). This way they could really cut costs dramatically and become competitive, which in turn would also boost their profitability in other segments, all across the board.
When has HT created any IP, like e.g. SSC's Mythos range? Nevah. Who was creative and dared to release environments and secondary characters succesfully? HT are just technically skilled and cheaper, but they are nothing on the IP arena. That is the only way western players have been able to hold their own in the last decades. Quality, creativity and uniqueness. Of course, Chinese CAN BE highly creative, but not with western properties (which they have no investment in, to begin with). And even if they did, their R+D expenditure would explode, they would stop being so cheap, and the level of uncertainty in their business model would also escalate (are Chinese risk-takers? Don't think so...).
The volume for those has to be way lower than a main character. They need a 2nd-tier contract if they're just going to do 2nd-tier characters. But now Hot Toys is dipping its toes in there as well (droids, Jawas). Don't know how these licenses work but it doesn't make sense to have two companies with the exact same license (ROTJ Luke).
They should clearly figure out some way to separate it out in such a way that still incentivizes a company to make the lesser-known characters and hit a profit. Basically they should just give them that old Kenner card back and negotiate what figures each has rights to.
As I have said several times, HT is poised to take SSC's place in terms of secondary characters. If this decision of going deeper should be true, and Howard told SSC's brass about his plans, SSC would have the only choices of fighting back, gearing up and hitting hard with creative moves like the Mythos range, akin to what they do in the Marvel line, or..... just retiring.
They might have chosen the latter.
Sitting now on top of a monopoly (OMGs...), HT might then stop being so conservative and get a bit bolder and more creative by finally releasing already-teased diorama accessories, like the MF cockpit, Anakin's starfighter, of the Power Loader. Or actually the contrary... Who knows....
Yeah, it’s like they kept trying to make something happen with their crappy human figures. Instead of a bunch of subpar releases (Red 5 Luke, Snowspeeder Luke, Hoth Luke, Hoth Han, Jedi Knight Luke) they would have been a lot smarter to just have let Hot Toys handle that aspect of the license. Had they turned their focus to the aliens/creatures or droids that Hot Toys won’t touch it would have made more sense.
It kind of seemed like for a bit they were doing that to a degree, but then they stopped. They released the rest of the bounty hunters that were previously missing along with updating the few they had done previously. They put out the Jawas, which while not the best I at least give them credit for trying. They put out various droids such as R5-D4 and various repainted versions of both that and R2 to make the Imperial versions. Jabba was a decent effort, but much too big and expensive for a lot of us.
Mike86, you are going too back in time when you mention releases like SSC's Hoth figures. The market was very different back then.
And figures that you seem to deplore, like the Hoth ones, including SSC's snowspeeder Luke, were beautiful, solid releases that met a huge demand, sold out quickly, and are highly coveted these days (same applies to the Jawas or the Tusken Raider). They were not perfect, but they were clearly successful (I hope that they also were financially succesful for SSC).
Now people, you really should try and be impartial to SSC.
Other than the headsculpts, I would say that each of those figures (other than Jedi Luke) you list are every bit as good as a HT fig (though Hoth Luke has a few issues with the outfit.) Yeah, I get that "except the head" is a pretty massive thing to sidestep but other than bodies and human heads, SSC was pretty much on par with HT in terms of weapons, outfits and accessories.
Agreed!
RfC
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And also it became, other than the lack of accessories. The Hoth figures were pre-Disney and then something changed and it seemed to really crush SS.
