Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2)

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C-3PO and Lando were my favorite characters in ROS. It was good to see C-3PO have some fun interaction with the characters and provide a little comic relief to the story without being groan inducing. I loved the Laurel and Hardy aspects of him and R2 in the original trilogy.
 
When watching ROTJ for the first time I thought that the fighter pilots were desperately overwhelmed. They were completely outmatched against the star destroyers and super star destroyers and the plethora of covering fighter squadrons and then it only goes and turns out that the gawdamned blast came from the death star... that things operational. The rebels were then clinging to the imperial fleet hoping it would provide them with cover from the death star which was methodically picking off its frigates (it targeted the medical frigate first, no rescue for the fighters free floating in space). Talk about out of the frying pan and into the fire. Then it would cut through to various scenes of fighters being obliterated not being able to shake off the fighters. Luke staring out the window as tiny lights burned brighter for a second and then flitted out to nothingness. The look he gave to the emperor betrayed the urgency of the situation and the fact that he reached for his sabre in anger to strike him down potentially damning himself in the process spoke to the desperateness of it all.

[and then these scenes are interspersed with commercials for cuddly bears ... cute - although the one that dies and then the other one tries to wake it up still gets me to this day pathetic I know haha]

Do you honestly feel that way about the TROS space battle? Do ya?

Fitting frikin death star lasers to every Star Destroyer does not raise the stakes for me it had the opposite effect. Palpatine shooting force lightning out of his skylight temporarily disabling the entire fleet does not raise the stakes ... it no longer seemed tangible. Seeing JJ's friend Snap Porkins junior get blasted did not raise the stakes ... it made me think thank goodness he won't be in TROS2 (did other pilots die, i've only seen it once but can't remember i mean I assume they showed others) - I need kamikaze A-wings barrel rolling into the bridge of super star destroyers for the win. Space horses on star destroyers ... just wow (Ewoks are preferable to this and at least their battle was like a side quest nicely tucked out of the way). The camera work wasn't great - there was no sense of scope or scale and it was difficult to follow the battle... just my opinion.

There were parts about TROS that I did enjoy and I have spoken about them before. Rey was bearable (dare I say it likable) again since the first 30 mins of TFA. The two lightsaber battles with Kylo were pretty cool and that Han scene smacked me right in the feels. Kylo is easily my favourite character from this trilogy. Luke was Luke again. I wish threepio had remained memory wiped (so his sacrifice had some permanence) and then the end scene really ought to have been R2 telling him everything he had missed over the last 9 movies. Chewie should have either been blown up in that ship or the ship never blown up at all, that fake out really hurt the movie. I really wanted Hayden to be in the movie as a force ghost offering his counsel to Kylo or coming at the emperor with the other jedi force ghosts like the ghost army in ROTK to collect Palpatine's force spirit after Rey had defeated him so that he could never return (to at least link in the Chosen One narrative somewhere). Just some of my TROS musings in the long dormant TLJ thread haha
 
All valid musings, Bravo. If you're asking whether I liked the Exegol space battle as much as the ROTJ space battle no, of course I did't. But it did have a different "feel" than the ROTJ battle (and a wildly different aesthetic as well with all the shadows and lightning) which was my point. Using Trevorrow's idea of R2 recapping the entire Saga (either via holograms or a memory injection into 3PO) would have been an interesting idea though I kind of feel like it sounds better on paper than if they had really tried to portray it on screen. I'd still be curious to see what that would have looked like though.
 
All valid musings, Bravo. If you're asking whether I liked the Exegol space battle as much as the ROTJ space battle no, of course I did't. But it did have a different "feel" than the ROTJ battle (and a wildly different aesthetic as well with all the shadows and lightning) which was my point. Using Trevorrow's idea of R2 recapping the entire Saga (either via holograms or a memory injection into 3PO) would have been an interesting idea though I kind of feel like it sounds better on paper than if they had really tried to portray it on screen. I'd still be curious to see what that would have looked like though.

I feel the R2 3PO scene should have been played for laughs a bit. R2 beeping and then 3PO saying random parts of the story in indignation "what, my parts were showing" "My head was swapped with a battle droid" "My leg was silver and my arm was red... oh my" "tiny little creatures worshipped me as a god" and then Chewie and Lando walk in or something and threepio be like 'thank the maker you are here, you will never believe what this R2 unit has been telling me... I think he might be defective'...
 
When watching ROTJ for the first time I thought that the fighter pilots were desperately overwhelmed. They were completely outmatched against the star destroyers and super star destroyers and the plethora of covering fighter squadrons and then it only goes and turns out that the gawdamned blast came from the death star... that things operational. The rebels were then clinging to the imperial fleet hoping it would provide them with cover from the death star which was methodically picking off its frigates (it targeted the medical frigate first, no rescue for the fighters free floating in space). Talk about out of the frying pan and into the fire. Then it would cut through to various scenes of fighters being obliterated not being able to shake off the fighters. Luke staring out the window as tiny lights burned brighter for a second and then flitted out to nothingness. The look he gave to the emperor betrayed the urgency of the situation and the fact that he reached for his sabre in anger to strike him down potentially damning himself in the process spoke to the desperateness of it all.

[and then these scenes are interspersed with commercials for cuddly bears ... cute - although the one that dies and then the other one tries to wake it up still gets me to this day pathetic I know haha]

Do you honestly feel that way about the TROS space battle? Do ya?

Fitting frikin death star lasers to every Star Destroyer does not raise the stakes for me it had the opposite effect. Palpatine shooting force lightning out of his skylight temporarily disabling the entire fleet does not raise the stakes ... it no longer seemed tangible. Seeing JJ's friend Snap Porkins junior get blasted did not raise the stakes ... it made me think thank goodness he won't be in TROS2 (did other pilots die, i've only seen it once but can't remember i mean I assume they showed others) - I need kamikaze A-wings barrel rolling into the bridge of super star destroyers for the win. Space horses on star destroyers ... just wow (Ewoks are preferable to this and at least their battle was like a side quest nicely tucked out of the way). The camera work wasn't great - there was no sense of scope or scale and it was difficult to follow the battle... just my opinion.

There were parts about TROS that I did enjoy and I have spoken about them before. Rey was bearable (dare I say it likable) again since the first 30 mins of TFA. The two lightsaber battles with Kylo were pretty cool and that Han scene smacked me right in the feels. Kylo is easily my favourite character from this trilogy. Luke was Luke again. I wish threepio had remained memory wiped (so his sacrifice had some permanence) and then the end scene really ought to have been R2 telling him everything he had missed over the last 9 movies. Chewie should have either been blown up in that ship or the ship never blown up at all, that fake out really hurt the movie. I really wanted Hayden to be in the movie as a force ghost offering his counsel to Kylo or coming at the emperor with the other jedi force ghosts like the ghost army in ROTK to collect Palpatine's force spirit after Rey had defeated him so that he could never return (to at least link in the Chosen One narrative somewhere). Just some of my TROS musings in the long dormant TLJ thread haha

Its so weird but the space horses never bothered me. I thought they would in the trailers but it literally had no effect on me.


I don't mind that 3PO memory remained intact. It got removed once already and really had no impact on me then either.
 
I don't mind that 3PO memory remained intact. It got removed once already and really had no impact on me then either.

Yeah, the fact that 3PO gave up his memory willingly (in effect killing himself from a certain point of view) without any expectation that he'd be restored made his sacrifice heroic enough for me.
 
Its so weird but the space horses never bothered me. I thought they would in the trailers but it literally had no effect on me.

Visually the horses look cool enough for me. I just really have to ignore the tactical stupidity of using them at all as opposed to Poe or any other fighter simple shooting torpedoes at the unshielded navigation tower. They really had no reason whatsoever to use the horses. But eh, I just see them as the organic counterpoint to the equally senseless buzz droids and like I said at least they looked cool so whatever, lol.
 
Wow somehow I missed this post last summer but what a great read ajp! :rock

Thank you, sir. :duff That post actually captures a lot about what ended up months later disappointing me so much in TROS.

Reading that epic AJP post knowing now how things turn out for the poor guy what a shame... TROS was like an RKO out of nowhere for AJP. He even had hope that JJ's priority was to be bold and creative ... only now, at the end, do you begin to understand.

It was a gut punch for me, but oh well.

Though it is quite funny that JJ's undead Palpatine so beautifully encapsulates his lack of creativity and overreliance on retreading the past. It's pretty profound. :lol

I think a lot of AJP's enjoyment with TLJ was that despite TFA being an obvious re-tread of Star Wars (leaving TLJ in a position where it could be an obvious re-tread of TESB) it did not go that way. In fact, it seemed to me that Rian deliberately set-up the call backs and mirrored scenes from TESB and ROTJ only to throw the outcome of those scenes on their head. TLJ left us in a position where the old cast was dead, the resistance basically crushed, and Kylo had now ascended to main antagonist and until Crait it seemed like Kylo might even be above the almost petty rebel empire dynamic and wanted to go somewhere else (maybe try and make the galaxy better by ruling with an iron fist, much like Anakin once eluded to in AOTC).

BUT... JJ came along and basically said i am not happy with how you played with my toys Rian. This is how you were supposed to play with them and effectively undid all (or as many as he could do) of Rian's 'new bold' directions. To the point where we ended up at the very end of TROS with an almost exact replica of the three way split third act battle of ROTJ complete with same bad guy but with everything dialled up to 11 (everything that is except the stakes). Seemed like he played it pretty safe to me.

Absolutely 100% spot-on. I thank you for summarizing it far more clearly and succinctly than I would've. :duff (Though I will be adding one last novel-length post to this thread about how TLJ perfectly expressed George's idea behind "balance of the Force.")

TLJ set up ep9 to end on Kylo/Ben without puppet strings. And have Luke following through on "see ya around, kid." And Leia being set up to have a role in his ultimate destiny. Skywalkers!!!

It amazes me that people now dispute that the Skywalker Saga was *always* supposed to be about Anakin and the Skywalkers. If anyone tells you that George didn't always envision prequel movies being about Anakin's turn to the dark, they're either lying or grossly uninformed. And if episodes 1-3 were *always* intended to focus on Anakin, why pretend that Star Wars was ever really about anything else at its core?

The core of the saga was not about the rise and fall of the Empire, nor was it about the history and legacy of the Jedi. All of that stuff was used to contextualize the central story: the Skywalker family. How anyone doesn't recognize that is beyond me.
 
I will be adding one last novel-length post to this thread about how TLJ perfectly expressed George's idea behind "balance of the Force.")

Bring it! :rock :duff

set up ep9 to end on Kylo/Ben without puppet strings.

TROS Kylo was no puppet. He was Supreme Leader and only feigned obedience to Palpatine so that he could search for Rey for his own purposes.

It amazes me that people now dispute that the Skywalker Saga was *always* supposed to be about Anakin and the Skywalkers. If anyone tells you that George didn't always envision prequel movies being about Anakin's turn to the dark, they're either lying or grossly uninformed. And if episodes 1-3 were *always* intended to focus on Anakin, why pretend that Star Wars was ever really about anything else at its core?

The core of the saga was not about the rise and fall of the Empire, nor was it about the history and legacy of the Jedi. All of that stuff was used to contextualize the central story: the Skywalker family. How anyone doesn't recognize that is beyond me.

No one has ever disputed that the PT was always going to focus on Obi-Wan and Anakin. However most believed that Anakin would turn into Darth Vader much earlier in the trilogy so that we could see him in full "Rogue One" mode for possibly at least one entire film. Then we would have had even more of Kenobi as the main protagonist.

Regardless George originally had planned for an entire sequel trilogy that didn't feature Anakin at all (since he was always going to die in Episode 6) with the main bad of the ST being Palpatine. Sound familiar? :)
 
Bring it! :rock :duff



TROS Kylo was no puppet. He was Supreme Leader and only feigned obedience to Palpatine so that he could search for Rey for his own purposes.



No one has ever disputed that the PT was always going to focus on Obi-Wan and Anakin. However most believed that Anakin would turn into Darth Vader much earlier in the trilogy so that we could see him in full "Rogue One" mode for possibly at least one entire film. Then we would have had even more of Kenobi as the main protagonist.

Regardless George originally had planned for an entire sequel trilogy that didn't feature Anakin at all (since he was always going to die in Episode 6) with the main bad of the ST being Palpatine. Sound familiar? :)

In this George Lucas ST did Palpatine feature in all three movies or get shoe-horned in at the end ... just curious :monkey3
 
:lol

Presumably all three movies and of course the "Dyad" would have been young Luke and Leia but Abrams played with the hand that was dealt him. :)

Hahaha... Abrams kind of stacked the deck for himself though as he did get to write TFA so literally could have set anything up. If you are going to re-tread themes from the OT I always enjoyed the Jacen Jaina twin dynamic from the EU. I would have like to see that play out where one twin goes bad.
 
Bring it! :rock :duff

It'll take a while to compose later today, and I want it to be my last post in this thread. (I know: fat chance, right? :lol)

TROS Kylo was no puppet. He was Supreme Leader and only feigned obedience to Palpatine so that he could search for Rey for his own purposes.

His role as Supreme Leader was meaningless. His own underlings were answering to Palpatine. Kylo's entire quest revolved around Palpatine. Redeemed Ben went to Exegol to deal with the same thing. We never saw how Anakin's grandson would control the galaxy, or how his family would help guide that incredibly lofty position he'd attained.

No one has ever disputed that the PT was always going to focus on Obi-Wan and Anakin. However most believed that Anakin would turn into Darth Vader much earlier in the trilogy so that we could see him in full "Rogue One" mode for possibly at least one entire film. Then we would have had even more of Kenobi as the main protagonist.

I think the fact that George (frustratingly) spent so much time on Anakin as a boy, then in courting his future wife, tells you something about what George's saga was all about.

Regardless George originally had planned for an entire sequel trilogy that didn't feature Anakin at all (since he was always going to die in Episode 6) with the main bad of the ST being Palpatine. Sound familiar? :)

And he took those sequel plans and contracted them (with revised elements) into ROTJ. Any discussion about sequels beyond ROTJ were made moot until GL wrote the outline for 7-9. As far as I've seen, Luke's exile as presented in TLJ was the only element that has been demonstrated to align (more or less) with GL's treatment. The rest of it, I think we'd both be willing to bet, would involve Skywalkers.
 
It'll take a while to compose later today, and I want it to be my last post in this thread. (I know: fat chance, right? :lol)

Looking forward to it. :rock There are fewer and fewer of us still wiling to write novels about SW so it's a treat any time a new one gets posted. :)

His role as Supreme Leader was meaningless.

"From your point of view." ;)

His own underlings were answering to Palpatine. Kylo's entire quest revolved around Palpatine. Redeemed Ben went to Exegol to deal with the same thing.

That's a bit like saying "OT Emperor's entire quest revolved around Luke, therefore his rule was meaningless." Kylo's quest was for Rey so that together they could destroy a common enemy. He had no intention *ever* of serving Palpatine. He addressed him as an equal on Exegol! Not once did we even see a hint of "yes, my master" or "I will do whatever you ask" that Anakin/Vader showed toward Palpatine in either the OT or PT.

We never saw how Anakin's grandson would control the galaxy

He did though, for however many years that took place between TLJ and TROS. I can understand being frustrated that we didn't see more of it (in a similar manner to how George inexplicably decided to have 90% of the Clone Wars take place off screen) but he still did it. And the way he carried himself all through TROS pretty much showed us how he behaved with his long coveted power.
 
Looking forward to it. :rock There are fewer and fewer of us still wiling to write novels about SW so it's a treat any time a new one gets posted. :)

For me, the novel-length posts are just ways to get out how much I love this stuff. There are people who get to write articles and novels about SW - and are paid to do it - but I think many of them would do it for free. I'm one of those who isn't fortunate enough to be paid for it, but willingly do it for free just because I actually enjoy it. With that said, here's my last novel (hopefully) in this thread. :lol

Something long associated with Star Wars has been the notion of "Balance of the Force." Most of the times that I've seen it brought up, fans treat it with uncertainty and confusion. In part, that's because I think some creators/writers are clueless as to what it was supposed to represent in the first place. The way I see it, the concept is really pretty simple.

The term "balance" usually implies two equally-weighted sides. So, if balance of the Force refers to the dark side and the light side, it's easy to assume that balance would simply mean equal light and dark. And while that's essentially true, it can't be simplified like that. And that's where TLJ stepped in to provide what I think is the best onscreen explanation of SW "balance" in existence. And the film did it with two different scenes.

The first scene was when Luke was telling Rey to reach out and "feel" the Force. What she saw was an equal balance of things that binds the universe together. That's the Force at work. It's a spiritual understanding of the nature of existence. And for the Jedi, it's their religion! The Force is like their God. But the Force has a light side and dark side where both can be tapped into to bring about enhanced results of what each side contributes to the universe. Too much light presents no obstacle to the natural order; but too much dark is a major problem.

Rey tells Luke what she sees, and RJ shows it to us with fleeting images. She sees "life . . . death and decay that feeds new life;" and then "warmth . . . cold;" and ultimately "peace . . . violence." Then Luke asks, "And between it all?" to which Rey answers, "Balance . . . energy . . . a force." For me, that's what "balance of the Force" is all about: keeping the Force in synchronized harmony so that life (and the universe) can continue to exist and evolve the way it's supposed to. I think that scene was as perfect for a SW nerd like me as it can get.

The reason I believe there was a prophecy of the Chosen One in the PT is because George Lucas was telling us why Anakin's journey ended up being so pivotal to restoring balance. By the time we were introduced to SW (with ANH), Palpatine had already disturbed the balance. It was out of whack in the OT. Palpatine/Sidious was a Sith who managed to ascend to a level of power that the Jedi weren't capable of dealing with. Anakin's birth came when Palps was already planting the seeds (and training Maul). That "magical" birth was the Force interceding to allow one special individual to restore balance to what was about to be a severe turn to the dark where an entire galaxy was being oppressed, and entire planets were going to be wiped out.

Which brings me to the second scene, which is really just one line. In Snoke's throne room, he tells Kylo that "darkness rises, and light to meet it." I think too many people take that to mean that the Force has to step in and empower a future Jedi every time someone taps into the dark side. But I don't think that's it at all. I don't think it's about having an equal number of chess pieces (light and dark) on the board. Rather, it's about not letting the dark suffocate the light. Palpatine had accomplished it once, and Snoke with Kylo were threatening to do it again (but not nearly as thoroughly as Palps had).

Balance requires that no dark side user can disturb the overarching harmony of universal order. Jedi don't pose a threat to that. There can be a billion Jedi throughout the galaxy, and they'll never mess with the balance. If there's no evil to thwart, the Jedi simply live very passive lives. But the Sith only exist to try to change order and balance in favor of darkness and death. They are proactive, not passive, by their very nature. So when a darksider gets too powerful for the Jedi to stop, the Force has to provide a new chess piece to help restore proper balance. Otherwise, light would get suffocated for good.

Sidious was getting too influential, so Anakin came along to balance him. But Anakin ended up on the dark side, and needed an anchor to keep him from going so far that he'd end up replacing what he stopped. So, the twins were born. Luke's brave approach to redeem his father rather than fight him was the anchor that Anakin needed. Then when Snoke became too powerful (in the shadows where Luke and Leia were left clueless), Anakin's grandson was there to slice him in half. And Rey was there to help anchor Kylo/Ben from giving in completely as a Snoke replacement. The end result would be: balance! Not in simplistic terms of numbers, but just in preventing the dark from suffocating the light. That's the key (for my interpretation, at least).

For two years, I've been frustrated with all the slams against Rian Johnson for not understanding Star Wars. All along, the irony for me is that RJ is the one who actually gets it. When he met with George Lucas and Dave Filoni, he actually listened. Plus, I think he already understood this stuff by being a fan growing up. Did he make some choices that George never would've made? No doubt. Was TLJ perfect? Not even close! But I think the spirit of his TLJ narrative was every bit what SW was always supposed to be, and his portrayal of "balance of the Force" was one of his best contributions to the lore.

Whew! To those who hate having to scroll through these absurdly long posts of mine, I sincerely apologize (even though you're not reading the apology). I think this was cathartic enough for me, and now my TROS-induced SW apathy will keep this from happening again. Gonna miss this thread, though. :lol
 
For me, the novel-length posts are just ways to get out how much I love this stuff.

There are people who get to write articles and novels about SW - and are paid to do it - but I think many of them would do it for free. I'm one of those who isn't fortunate enough to be paid for it, but willingly do it for free just because I actually enjoy it. With that said, here's my last novel (hopefully) in this thread. :lol

Something long associated with Star Wars has been the notion of "Balance of the Force." Most of the times that I've seen it brought up, fans treat it with uncertainty and confusion. In part, that's because I think some creators/writers are clueless as to what it was supposed to represent in the first place. The way I see it, the concept is really pretty simple.

The term "balance" usually implies two equally-weighted sides. So, if balance of the Force refers to the dark side and the light side, it's easy to assume that balance would simply mean equal light and dark. And while that's essentially true, it can't be simplified like that. And that's where TLJ stepped in to provide what I think is the best onscreen explanation of SW "balance" in existence. And the film did it with two different scenes.

The first scene was when Luke was telling Rey to reach out and "feel" the Force. What she saw was an equal balance of things that binds the universe together. That's the Force at work. It's a spiritual understanding of the nature of existence. And for the Jedi, it's their religion! The Force is like their God. But the Force has a light side and dark side where both can be tapped into to bring about enhanced results of what each side contributes to the universe. Too much light presents no obstacle to the natural order; but too much dark is a major problem.

Rey tells Luke what she sees, and RJ shows it to us with fleeting images. She sees "life . . . death and decay that feeds new life;" and then "warmth . . . cold;" and ultimately "peace . . . violence." Then Luke asks, "And between it all?" to which Rey answers, "Balance . . . energy . . . a force." For me, that's what "balance of the Force" is all about: keeping the Force in synchronized harmony so that life (and the universe) can continue to exist and evolve the way it's supposed to. I think that scene was as perfect for a SW nerd like me as it can get.

The reason I believe there was a prophecy of the Chosen One in the PT is because George Lucas was telling us why Anakin's journey ended up being so pivotal to restoring balance. By the time we were introduced to SW (with ANH), Palpatine had already disturbed the balance. It was out of whack in the OT. Palpatine/Sidious was a Sith who managed to ascend to a level of power that the Jedi weren't capable of dealing with. Anakin's birth came when Palps was already planting the seeds (and training Maul). That "magical" birth was the Force interceding to allow one special individual to restore balance to what was about to be a severe turn to the dark where an entire galaxy was being oppressed, and entire planets were going to be wiped out.

Which brings me to the second scene, which is really just one line. In Snoke's throne room, he tells Kylo that "darkness rises, and light to meet it." I think too many people take that to mean that the Force has to step in and empower a future Jedi every time someone taps into the dark side. But I don't think that's it at all. I don't think it's about having an equal number of chess pieces (light and dark) on the board. Rather, it's about not letting the dark suffocate the light. Palpatine had accomplished it once, and Snoke with Kylo were threatening to do it again (but not nearly as thoroughly as Palps had).

Balance requires that no dark side user can disturb the overarching harmony of universal order. Jedi don't pose a threat to that. There can be a billion Jedi throughout the galaxy, and they'll never mess with the balance. If there's no evil to thwart, the Jedi simply live very passive lives. But the Sith only exist to try to change order and balance in favor of darkness and death. They are proactive, not passive, by their very nature. So when a darksider gets too powerful for the Jedi to stop, the Force has to provide a new chess piece to help restore proper balance. Otherwise, light would get suffocated for good.

Sidious was getting too influential, so Anakin came along to balance him. But Anakin ended up on the dark side, and needed an anchor to keep him from going so far that he'd end up replacing what he stopped. So, the twins were born. Luke's brave approach to redeem his father rather than fight him was the anchor that Anakin needed. Then when Snoke became too powerful (in the shadows where Luke and Leia were left clueless), Anakin's grandson was there to slice him in half. And Rey was there to help anchor Kylo/Ben from giving in completely as a Snoke replacement. The end result would be: balance! Not in simplistic terms of numbers, but just in preventing the dark from suffocating the light. That's the key (for my interpretation, at least).

For two years, I've been frustrated with all the slams against Rian Johnson for not understanding Star Wars. All along, the irony for me is that RJ is the one who actually gets it. When he met with George Lucas and Dave Filoni, he actually listened. Plus, I think he already understood this stuff by being a fan growing up. Did he make some choices that George never would've made? No doubt. Was TLJ perfect? Not even close! But I think the spirit of his TLJ narrative was every bit what SW was always supposed to be, and his portrayal of "balance of the Force" was one of his best contributions to the lore.

Whew! To those who hate having to scroll through these absurdly long posts of mine, I sincerely apologize (even though you're not reading the apology). I think this was cathartic enough for me, and now my TROS-induced SW apathy will keep this from happening again. Gonna miss this thread, though. :lol

Great read thanks for posting AJP. Our views on 'balance' differ somewhat but yours is an interesting take.

I think for me the prophecy was more about resetting everything. My most simplistic view of it is that both the Sith and the Jedi had to be wiped off the board to achieve balance and something purer had to take its place, both were corrupt but in different ways.

The Sith were only interested in the Dark Side; fear, anger, suffering but I would also add in their chaos, destruction and death they sought to corrupt the force itself and use it for evil.

The Jedi (as presented in the PT) were once the guardians of the light but they had lost their way, become complacent. Seemed more focused on maintaining their influence, dogma and their elitist status in their ivory towers. I mean just look at the positioning of the elegant but elephantine Jedi Temple - the Council held their meetings in a room literally in the clouds looking down on the citizens, equal in stature to the senate. They meddled in politics rather than help the people directly as seen in the opening scenes in TPM (which surely should be their calling as conduits of the light side of the force). I mean they snatch babies and children from their parents, taught that attachment and love for others was a negative. By the end of the PT the Jedi had been reduced to warriors and soldiers and in the case of Mace his group going to 'arrest' Palpatine, executioners. A far cry from what I imagine a Jedi should be and definitely an usual presentation of the 'good' guys.

We even saw throughout the OT that Obi-wan constantly manipulated and lied to Luke to try and get him to kill Vader. It was the only way the Obi-wan could perceive that victory could be achieved and selfishly would rectify his own 'failure' on Mustafar. There was no thought to a different path (something something absolutes), Luke was a pawn to him. Even Yoda with his wisdom sought (with Obi-wan's encouragement) to groom Luke to become a weapon against the empire. He even discouraged him from leaving to save the ones he loved because Yoda thought that he wasn't strong enough yet to kill Vader. Yoda was initially reticence to train Luke because he was 'too old' and in my opinion that was not born out of worry that this would lessen his ability to use the force or pick up the training but likely only because a young mind is an impressionable one which can be controlled not like Luke.

Ultimately Anakin brought about the end of the Jedi first in the PT and then in the OT he destroyed the Sith (killing Palpatine and in the process himself). The old ways were gone and we know (with the benefit of the PT) that whilst Luke may have been a Jedi Knight in name he did not emulate the Jedi of the PT era.
 
Great read thanks for posting AJP. Our views on 'balance' differ somewhat but yours is an interesting take.

I greatly appreciate that. And from reading your post, I actually don't think our view of "balance" differs very much, if at all.

I think for me the prophecy was more about resetting everything. My most simplistic view of it is that both the Sith and the Jedi had to be wiped off the board to achieve balance and something purer had to take its place, both were corrupt but in different ways.

The Sith were only interested in the Dark Side; fear, anger, suffering but I would also add in their chaos, destruction and death they sought to corrupt the force itself and use it for evil.

As I see it, the elements of fear, anger, and suffering are the *causes* of falling to the dark side; whereas chaos, corruption, destruction, and death are the results and goals once the dark side has been fully embraced over the light (like with the Sith). So I totally agree with your breakdown of how the dark side gets manifested. And that's why too much influence from the dark side is unsustainable. Either there needs to be a correction to that imbalance, or life and the natural order will ultimately cease to exist.

The Jedi (as presented in the PT) were once the guardians of the light but they had lost their way, become complacent. Seemed more focused on maintaining their influence, dogma and their elitist status in their ivory towers. I mean just look at the positioning of the elegant but elephantine Jedi Temple - the Council held their meetings in a room literally in the clouds looking down on the citizens, equal in stature to the senate. They meddled in politics rather than help the people directly as seen in the opening scenes in TPM (which surely should be their calling as conduits of the light side of the force). I mean they snatch babies and children from their parents, taught that attachment and love for others was a negative. By the end of the PT the Jedi had been reduced to warriors and soldiers and in the case of Mace his group going to 'arrest' Palpatine, executioners. A far cry from what I imagine a Jedi should be and definitely an usual presentation of the 'good' guys.

Again, I'm in total agreement. The Jedi became too full of themselves. Even to the point of commandeering a clone army to fight a full-scale war. If that's not a perversion of Jedi philosophy, I don't know what is. But I would also add that this particular perversion of the Jedi was partly being orchestrated by Palpatine.

Sure, it was the Jedi Sifo-Dyas who started the clone army, but it was Palpatine using the results to pull Jedi strings and put them in the frontlines of a war. Their destruction started with their slide toward elitism, but it was brought along by Palpatine corrupting them from within by injecting dissent and leaving them to believe that militarism was a necessary evolution of their role.

We even saw throughout the OT that Obi-wan constantly manipulated and lied to Luke to try and get him to kill Vader. It was the only way the Obi-wan could perceive that victory could be achieved and selfishly would rectify his own 'failure' on Mustafar. There was no thought to a different path (something something absolutes), Luke was a pawn to him. Even Yoda with his wisdom sought (with Obi-wan's encouragement) to groom Luke to become a weapon against the empire. He even discouraged him from leaving to save the ones he loved because Yoda thought that he wasn't strong enough yet to kill Vader. Yoda was initially reticence to train Luke because he was 'too old' and in my opinion that was not born out of worry that this would lessen his ability to use the force or pick up the training but likely only because a young mind is an impressionable one which can be controlled not like Luke.

This is where I'm not entirely willing to agree, although I can't fully disagree either. We don't definitively know what Obi-Wan and Yoda imagined Luke's role to be with respect to Vader. After all, if it was indeed their goal to have Luke kill Vader, how would that defeat Palpatine? The Empire, and their tyranny, doesn't stop with an end to Vader. The Emperor is the key, and Yoda himself couldn't take down Palpatine. So who would be able to? The answer is Anakin.

I agree that the obvious interpretation is that Obi-Wan and Yoda were steering Luke toward killing his father. But does that really make any sense as an endgame? Maybe an alternate interpretation is that Yoda's prescient vision actually saw a redeemed Anakin. And if Luke couldn't do it, there was still one more offspring (Leia) as a backup plan. Telling Luke that he needed to confront and kill Vader may have been with a hidden expectation that Anakin would turn to save his son instead. Wouldn't be the first time Yoda and Obi-Wan kept the full truth from Luke, right? ;)

But before any of that could take place, Luke needed training to become strong enough (physically and psychologically) to resist falling to the dark side and being Palpatine's new tool. That would've resulted in game over. Was Luke being trained as a fighter? Or was he actually being trained to withstand temptation from the dark side and provide Anakin a lifeline back to the light?

Ultimately Anakin brought about the end of the Jedi first in the PT and then in the OT he destroyed the Sith (killing Palpatine and in the process himself). The old ways were gone and we know (with the benefit of the PT) that whilst Luke may have been a Jedi Knight in name he did not emulate the Jedi of the PT era.

The Jedi didn't end entirely. Yoda and Obi-Wan from the old guard were still around to be Luke's mentors. His new Jedi Order would have to draw greatly from their influence. But yes, that influence would presumably lead to learning from the mistakes of the PT era Jedi.

And Anakin did indeed fulfill the prophecy by ending the Sith. No more master (Palpatine), and no more apprentice (Vader). I don't think the prophecy necessarily meant that Anakin would definitely fulfill it, though. He still had free will. Just like Luke did. For all we know, Anakin could've ended the Sith (and fulfilled the prophecy) in Palpatine's office instead of stopping Mace. His choices were his own the whole time.

Thank you for discussion on this subject, and especially for your insights about it. I usually come away from your posts thinking things over, and seeing enough of a different perspective to tweak my understanding of some of the finer points. Much appreciated. :duff
 
When watching ROTJ for the first time I thought that the fighter pilots were desperately overwhelmed. They were completely outmatched against the star destroyers and super star destroyers and the plethora of covering fighter squadrons and then it only goes and turns out that the gawdamned blast came from the death star... that things operational. The rebels were then clinging to the imperial fleet hoping it would provide them with cover from the death star which was methodically picking off its frigates (it targeted the medical frigate first, no rescue for the fighters free floating in space). Talk about out of the frying pan and into the fire. Then it would cut through to various scenes of fighters being obliterated not being able to shake off the fighters. Luke staring out the window as tiny lights burned brighter for a second and then flitted out to nothingness. The look he gave to the emperor betrayed the urgency of the situation and the fact that he reached for his sabre in anger to strike him down potentially damning himself in the process spoke to the desperateness of it all.

[and then these scenes are interspersed with commercials for cuddly bears ... cute - although the one that dies and then the other one tries to wake it up still gets me to this day pathetic I know haha]

Do you honestly feel that way about the TROS space battle? Do ya?


Even though I quite like TROS for what it is, no, I didn't feel anything remotely as tense or exciting as the ROTJ ending. But that is because the OT is infinitely superior in almost every way. I love ROTJ, I think it's better than ANH tbh. At least TROS did offer some entertainment however.
 
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