The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power | Amazon Prime Video - September 2, 2022

[Alatar]

But the real answer is that it's a TV show and the timeline has been condensed in order to make events play out well for TV. The events that this show is covering take place over decades and centuries which just doesn't work for a show.

Yeah for sure! For example, Sauron disguised as Annatar spent 300 years in Eregion working with Celebrimbor to craft the Rings of Power. They have to condense things like that.

But I think the main reason they're writing it this way is that fans want familiar and beloved characters like Gandalf to hold the attention of non-hardcore Tolkien nerds, i.e., casual fans, normy viewers.

 

[chrisstbh]

Yeah for sure! For example, Sauron disguised as Annatar spent 300 years in Eregion working with Celebrimbor to craft the Rings of Power. They have to condense things like that.

But I think the main reason they're writing it this way is that fans want familiar and beloved characters like Gandalf to hold the attention of non-hardcore Tolkien nerds, i.e., casual fans, normy viewers.

Indeed. I think anyone expecting a 1:1 adaptation is going to be disappointed no matter what.

 

[Landry]

Spoiler regarding the Stranger:

Spoiler: Spoiler

I’m definitely bummed that the Stranger is Gandalf versus a blue wizard. I get that it’s an adaptation for a TV series and that creative liberties can and should be taken where appropriate. But I distinctly recall that the deal that Amazon struck with the Tolkien estate is that the story of the series would faithfully follow Tolkien’s canon and not break it or deviate from it. And that where the series could be creative to fill out details and create more granular plot lines and arcs and so forth, it would be allowed to do so.

Tolkien never wrote that Gandalf, aka the Maiar named Olorin, incarnated in Middle Earth during the Second Age. He *did* however write in a letter in 1958 a revision to his earlier writing about the two blue wizards. He stated that he believed that they arrived during the Second Age rather than the Third. And he said that rather than falling into creating dark magic cults in the East and forgetting their mission, Alatar and Pallando likely played a decisive role in sufficiently thwarting Sauron’s efforts to seduce the free peoples of the East (Rhun) and South (Harad). Which essentially saved Middle Earth at that critical time!

That’s the story I wanted to see! That is per Tolkien’s writings.

I kinda don’t think we’re getting that. It’s looking like Gandalf (who per Tolkien’s canon wasn’t there in the Second Age) will play the role that Tolkien said the blues had. And the blues will be stereotypical evil wizards. Ugh. I’m very disappointed. I’ll probably be able to roll with it as I keep watching. But this is such a departure from canon that it’s actually breaking immersion for me.

In regards to that...

Spoiler: Spoiler

I'd say he still he's not Gandalf. I mean, they call him that, sure. But his story is that of a Blue Wizard - as you outlined pretty well. So I'd say we are getting that story. It's like they took the tales of a blue Wizard and called him Gandalf. But Gandalf's story is different. As example, if write a story about Luke Skywalker as a young boy and he's the son of Shmi and a slave to Watto and he builds 3p0... he's Anakin and leaves with Qui Gon after winning a pod race... I can call him Luke, but that's not Luke's story. He won't be Luke no matter how many times I call him Luke. That's an extreme example, but at this point I assume they had the rights to the name Gandalf and not those of the Blue Wizards. So they're telling a Blue Wizard story with a recognizable name has a rights dodge and a recognizability grab.

 

[Alatar]

In regards to that...

Spoiler: Spoiler

I'd say he still he's not Gandalf. I mean, they call him that, sure. But his story is that of a Blue Wizard - as you outlined pretty well. So I'd say we are getting that story. It's like they took the tales of a blue Wizard and called him Gandalf. But Gandalf's story is different. As example, if write a story about Luke Skywalker as a young boy and he's the son of Shmi and a slave to Watto and he builds 3p0... he's Anakin and leaves with Qui Gon after winning a pod race... I can call him Luke, but that's not Luke's story. He won't be Luke no matter how many times I call him Luke. That's an extreme example, but at this point I assume they had the rights to the name Gandalf and not those of the Blue Wizards. So they're telling a Blue Wizard story with a recognizable name has a rights dodge and a recognizability grab.

Nah man, unfortunately the showrunners have fully confirmed. The Stranger is Olorin aka Gandalf: https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/tv/story/2024-10-03/rings-of-power-season-2-finale-the-stranger#:~:text=This article contains spoilers for,what he has to do.”

 

[Landry]

Nah man, unfortunately the showrunners have fully confirmed. The Stranger is Olorin aka Gandalf: https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/tv/story/2024-10-03/rings-of-power-season-2-finale-the-stranger#:~:text=This article contains spoilers for,what he has to do.”

Doesn’t matter what they call him. It’s the story of a blue wizard, not Gandalf.

 

[Alatar]

Doesn’t matter what they call him. It’s the story of a blue wizard, not Gandalf.

Mmm, not sure. Maybe! The blues disrupted Sauron’s plans to completely ally the free peoples of the east and south, apparently convincing enough of them to resist the Dark Lord to make a difference. It sounds like that in this story Gandalf’s mission is to prevent the Dark Wizard of Rhun—who the showrunners have said is most likely not Saruman, and therefore de facto a blue wizard—from allying with Sauron. Per Tom Bombadil anyway. So Gandalf’s mission (at least to start) sounds significantly different from the blues as Tolkien outlined it in his 1959 letter. But perhaps the writers will fuse that mission into the story later on as well. At this point it sounds like the blues are bad guys that Tolkien wrote about originally, not the good guys that the 1959 letter describes.

 

[jye4ever]

I was late finishing this.

Good Sauron actor.

Good Durin and his father actors.

Good Celembrimbor actor.

The rest was crap.

WTF was up with that horrible heavy metal song!

Battles were disjointed.

Elves and orcs felt off.

It all felt CW like, cheap and full of cringe.

Now that we got our white, black, asian and latino elfves we can all rest easy knowing everyone can associate with an elf now.

 

[crows]

I was late finishing this.

Good Sauron actor.

Good Durin and his father actors.

Good Celembrimbor actor.

The rest was crap.

WTF was up with that horrible heavy metal song!

Battles were disjointed.

Elves and orcs felt off.

It all felt CW like, cheap and full of cringe.

Now that we got our white, black, asian and latino elfves we can all rest easy knowing everyone can associate with an elf now.

Noooo NOOOOO NOOO
THE METAL SONG WAS GREAT IT WAS THE ORCS BATTLE CRY SONG

 

[crows]

these are the lyrics to that amazing orc anthem


the last ballad of damrod


In humid mold, troll sits alone
No friend or kin to call his own
Troll gnaws on skins, raw shanks and shins
Rips meat from reeking dragon bone
With laughter deep and throaty groan
He rises from his seat of stone
From darkened cave, a bloodlust crave
Set loose upon the hills to roam

[Chorus]
Snap go the bones (Snap, snap)
Crunch go the teeth (Crunch, crunch)
Troll cracking spines (Crack, crack)
Beneath his feet (Crunch, crunch)

[Verse 2]
Now the battle horn has blown
From final fight he has been shown
To darkened cave, a bloodless grave
He sits with heart, a hardened stone
In humid mold, troll sits alone
Rips meat from reeking dragon bone
Troll gnaws on skins, raw shanks and shins
No friend or kin to call his own
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[Chorus]
Snap go the bones (Snap, snap)
Crunch go the teeth (Crunch, crunch)
Troll cracking spines (Crack, crack)
Beneath his feet (Crunch, crunch)
Snap go the bones (Snap, snap)
Crunch go the teeth (Crunch, crunch)
Troll cracking spines (Crack, crack)
Beneath his feet (Crunch, crunch)

[Outro]
Troll turns foe flesh to meat

 

[Landry]

Mmm, not sure. Maybe! The blues disrupted Sauron’s plans to completely ally the free peoples of the east and south, apparently convincing enough of them to resist the Dark Lord to make a difference. It sounds like that in this story Gandalf’s mission is to prevent the Dark Wizard of Rhun—who the showrunners have said is most likely not Saruman, and therefore de facto a blue wizard—from allying with Sauron. Per Tom Bombadil anyway. So Gandalf’s mission (at least to start) sounds significantly different from the blues as Tolkien outlined it in his 1959 letter. But perhaps the writers will fuse that mission into the story later on as well. At this point it sounds like the blues are bad guys that Tolkien wrote about originally, not the good guys that the 1959 letter describes.

It could easily be seen that the show has played a split of the two different concepts for the blue wizards - one wizard for each.

It was the stranger that convinced the dark wizard to make the journey. Gandalf never took that action in Tolkien's mythology. Neither did Saruman or Radagast. But one of the blue wizards did petition to bring his friend with him - hence they were two. So the stranger is a match there. Gandalf does not arrive until long into the Third Age. The blue wizards came first in the Second Age. So the stranger is a match there as well. Gandalf claims to not be known in the East - a land where he specifically states that he has no name for he does not travel there. The blue wizards operated in the east - so the stranger is a match there.

The stranger is a Blue Wizard in all but name. His story does not match Gandalf, no matter what they call him. So far anyway. Of course there shouldn't be 5 istari anyway. And teh relationship between Prince Durin and Elrond would be better suited to be Narvi and Celebrimbor. And there were no rings made for dwarves or men... etc, etc...

I'm enjoying the show, mind you. I get they are going to make changes. I'm just pointing out the weirdness of taking the details that align with a blue wizard and giving them to a Gandalf origin. Bit strange.

 

[pixletwin]

these are the lyrics to that amazing orc anthem


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That’s a bit crap, in’it?