Who is the real champion?

[Anzik]

Spike had one of my favorite lines in the whole series:

"I might be love's ++++++, but at least I'm man enough to admit it."

 

[Protozaius]

In the end, Spike may have fought the good fight, but it was Angel who not only fought, but inspired others to fight.

I think that is a key distinction.

 

[Bradlee_scott]

I will say, Spike did spawn one of my top 5 favorite quotes ever.

Buffy-What are you doing, five words of less.

Spike- out for a walk... bit*h

 

[Badism]

I think that is a key distinction.

Angel was not very inspiring the first 90 years he has his soul. Again, give Spike some time.

 

[TheObsoleteMan]

Yeah, Angel did spend a long time coming to terms with his guilt for all of the suffering he caused. Apparently, that wasn't a big problem for Spike.

 

[Badism]

Yeah, Angel did spend a long time coming to terms with his guilt for all of the suffering he caused. Apparently, that wasn't a big problem for Spike.

What are you talking about? The first thing Angel did was go back to Darla and begin feeding on humans again (evil do'ers) He then spent 70 years in america living a fairly normal life (for a vampire with a soul ), which included Hanging with the brat pack, doing missions for for the military (in which he fed on and turned a human being into a vampire) Abandoned a hotel full of people to be eaten by a demon and fed off a dead human being. And that is only the stuff we know about. It was only after he fed off the dead man he became tortured to the point of living in allys and feeding off rats.

Why do you think Spike, after only TWO years of having a soul doesn't feel guilt? Because Angel said he doesn't? I got news for you...Angel doesn't like Spike.

Another thing, Angel has a hell of a lot more to feel guilty for, like more then a century's worth of torture and slaughter. Spike also had more of a support system around him, good people. First the scoobies, then the fang gang. Angel surrounded himself with evil vampires and then later withdrew from others all togethor.

Spike had been conditioned by his pain chip for 3 years not view humans as food anymore. So when he did get his soul he had not fed on a living human being for that long. Let us not forget that he went insane for 4 months due to the guilt he felt. He got better thanks to Buffy's help and people hold that against him?!....whatever.

Lastly, The guy freakin sacrificed his life to save the world! Was that selfish? Was that to get in Buffy's pants?? NO, he was a good guy, he was a hero...he is a champion. Sure, he has an attitude, but that makes him cool in my book and no less the champion. Biased Spike haters get over it.

 

[Anzik]

Spike is the archetypal anti hero. He is definitely a champion or else he couldn't have worn the sunshiney amulet.
Also Spike has a more black and white view of the world than Angel. He summed that up with Robin Wood when he explained to him that Nikki was a Slayer, Spike was a vampire. Thats the way it is. Thats also why Spike's morality was more ambiguous than Angel's.
Angel certainly made some cold, heartless decisions but I think he was always aware of the cost each time. Not that Spike wasn't aware, just not as concerned by it.

 

[BillyBudd]

Those were lawyers so technically Angel was doing a good deed for humanity.

I know you're partly joking, but many people conveniently ignore ensouled Angel's missteps, some of which are quite serious. Badism mentioned one from the episode "Are you Now or Have You Ever Been." Angel allowed a bunch of humans to be taken by a demon after they attempted to kill him. The people believed that Angel was responsible for the demon's hauntings. This event took place in the Hyperion Hotel back in the 50's. Sure, Angel had just been wrongly accused and attacked, but a true champion walks the high road.

 

[Anzik]

Oh I agree. i think this needs a qualifying statement of "Who was the champion at this time in the story"
Because clearly they have both exhibited champion and not so champion behavior.
Thats what makes the characters 'human'. Its like asking someone if they would ever kill a child. Of course no one would do that (we hope) but then you say what if you could go back in time and kill a young Hitler, you might get a different answer.

 

[Badism]

I know you're partly joking, but many people conveniently ignore ensouled Angel's missteps, some of which are quite serious. Badism mentioned one from the episode "Are you Now or Have You Ever Been." Angel allowed a bunch of humans to be taken by a demon after they attempted to kill him. The people believed that Angel was responsible for the demon's hauntings. This event took place in the Hyperion Hotel back in the 50's. Sure, Angel had just been wrongly accused and attacked, but a true champion walks the high road.

That's what I'm saying. Robin Wood attacked Spike, tried to kill him, but in the end Spike spared him. The high road.

I'm afraid some of the opinions here and elsewhere are from people who only watched a handful of episodes or they are biased. When you bring up facts you suddenly get silence.

And to quote Spike's Buffy bot.... "Angel is lame. His hair sticks straight up and he's bloody stupid"

 

[Bazookajoe007]

Think about this; Angel was cursed with a soul, not his soul. So was the good that Angel did really a product of his own heroism or is it to be attributed to this soul's influence on him?
Spike fought for his soul. Spike fought in order to give Buffy quote;" What that +++++ deserves". What he wanted to give her was a man capable of loving her, a man with a soul. True, he fought evil for her sake, but he gave up his life for her sake, is that selfish?
As I remember, Angel was a champion so he could make up for the great evil that he did. Spike became a champion for the love of a woman. Which motive is more pure? Which motive is more selfish?

 

[The Craw]

im pretty sure angel was cursed with his original soul. the soul of liam, since he can remember his family and stuff.

 

[Murderofcrows71]

Yeah I had read in an article years ago in an interview with Joss Whedon about the whole internet Angel Vs. Spike thing. Where he basically came out and said he appreciated the ideas in season 5 and 6 that Spike and Buffy would end up together, but he never intended it to end that way. Angel and Buffy would always be the main heroes.

 

[Badism]

im pretty sure angel was cursed with his original soul. the soul of liam, since he can remember his family and stuff.

You're correct. Liam's soul is the one that Angelus was cursed with.

 

[Serpentor]

Think about this; Angel was cursed with a soul, not his soul. So was the good that Angel did really a product of his own heroism or is it to be attributed to this soul's influence on him?
Spike fought for his soul. Spike fought in order to give Buffy quote;" What that +++++ deserves". What he wanted to give her was a man capable of loving her, a man with a soul. True, he fought evil for her sake, but he gave up his life for her sake, is that selfish?
As I remember, Angel was a champion so he could make up for the great evil that he did. Spike became a champion for the love of a woman. Which motive is more pure? Which motive is more selfish?

I dont think Spike was after his soul, what I gathered from that was he was after what he once was, he wanted to be the ruthless Slayer killing vampire he was once. He was doing it so he could kill Buffy not so she would love him. Now its been a while since I saw the last seasons of the show, so if it was somewhere confiremd that he was fighting to get his soul back then ignore my crazy rantings. But that's what I got from it when I saw that episode.

Angle is legitamtley trying to do good, Spike did it to get with Buffy and then most likley just to spite Angle.

 

[The Craw]

I dont think Spike was after his soul, what I gathered from that was he was after what he once was, he wanted to be the ruthless Slayer killing vampire he was once. He was doing it so he could kill Buffy not so she would love him. Now its been a while since I saw the last seasons of the show, so if it was somewhere confiremd that he was fighting to get his soul back then ignore my crazy rantings. But that's what I got from it when I saw that episode.

Angle is legitamtley trying to do good, Spike did it to get with Buffy and then most likley just to spite Angle.

actually joss said he was fighting for his soul all along but the viewer was supposed to think he was trying to lose the chip. he called it a "plot twist".

 

[Serpentor]

Very good then, never read or heard any intreviews on the subject or commentaries. All I had was what I recalled from the episode.

 

[The Craw]

Very good then, never read or heard any intreviews on the subject or commentaries. All I had was what I recalled from the episode.

its brought up in the "academy of television arts and sciences discussion" feature in the season 6 dvd i believe.

 

[Serpentor]

Thanks, I'll make a note to check that out when I get around to picking up season 6 on DVD.

 

[The Craw]

Thanks, I'll make a note to check that out when I get around to picking up season 6 on DVD.

its a great roundtable discussion about season 6. i remember this part because joss was saying he invented the "plot twist" with an air quote gesture. pretty funny.