Marvel's The Punisher - Netflix series

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Jye... Unless the last two episodes are a complete waste... This season kicks season 1s Ass...

I think you have to revisit season 1 to see just how boring it was. This season has so many great moments.. Yeah Frank is not 100% Punisher but he is so much closer then season 1... I think you may just have Netflix Marvel fatigue.. The slow moments in this are no worse then the other shows.. In fact I think they have been better overall.

I don't know how we see this season so differently.

Oh and claiming Russian fight in the movie was better then this one.. Come on MAN!!

Such a great moment when Frank went to kill Billy and Billy had his guys ready for him and Frank wipes them out.

I really Hate Billy Russo this season. In a good way.. And the Dr. was annoying me but I like were they took her character.. Hate her as much as Russo.

Like the Preacher guy also..

This is much more like comics then Season 1 IMO and way more then the Jane movie :)

Daredevil Season 2 is still the best Punisher but if the last two episodes deliver then this will be very close.

I agree 100% Jaws. I liked season 2 more than season 1. I also think DD season 2 is the best use of the Punisher character on Netflix.
 
Finished Last two episodes...

As a whole it suffers from the same thing all the Marvel Netflix shows suffer from.. TOO MUCH FILLER!

These shows should either be 8 to 10 episode seasons or 40 min long shows. Just way too much talking and subplots.

Having said that I enjoyed this season a lot. There were great Punisher moments in all the episodes except for maybe 2. I at first hated the Billy / Therapist relationship but when they made her a full on villain I was good with it.

Loved how Frank took care of Business with Billy also... Thought for sure there would be some sappy "Brothers" dialogue but nope.. Perfect Punisher move.

Really wish we could have got a season 3.. Loved that final shot.

Shame on Jye for even bringing up Jane Punisher in this thread as anything more then the awful film it is :lol I just watched Cinema sins on it to refresh my memory.. Eek that's a bad movie. :)

Anyways, For Netflix shows staring The Punisher.. Like I said I liked this more then season one but not as much as Season 2 of Daredevil.
 
Ok I finished.

Don’t even bother because the 20% increase in gore is not worth sitting thru a TON of talking.

Sure there were specific fight scenes that were great or an episode or two that were better than some episodes in S1 but taken as a whole it is not worth sitting thru 13 slogging episodes just for a 15 second scene of Frank deciding that yes he needs to be the Punisher that yes the legal system while imperfect functions but another layer of punishment is also very much needed.

S1 was slow but was well written and had a great climax and the narrative was cohesive.

S2 was all over the place.

I have to admit the end at the bus stop did bring the feels but again still not worth the overall journey.

Please bring Castle home to Marvel sure the gore won’t be as extreme as Netflix but it’s time for a new coat of paint...again.

Disney literally ended their Spiderman FFH trailer with an explicit profanity of the male sexual organ....”****-wad” Disney is not afraid to push near the line.

Had to come back and look at this.. I get where you are coming from.. I would say season 1 as a whole is better written but Season 2 felt more like a Punisher story and not military drama. There were things in season 1 that just left me board silly. Billy and his Anvil business.. The PTSD kid trying to join ANVIL... The twist of who killed Franks family.. The cop / Billy relationship.. Yep thought it was worse then the Dr / Billy relationship.. Again at least she became a villain. And worst of all.. I found Micro and his story to be pretty damn boring... Season 1 made Frank's story feel more like an afterthought and season 2 focused more on Frank.

Either way both seasons kick the crap out of Jane's Miami Vice presents The Punisher.
 
Finished season 2.
I liked the first episode and where it was leading, the bar fight and the Assault on Precinct 13 homage, but then so much talking made it sag in the middle. The story with Jigsaw was good and I liked how they changed the character, but the other story with Amy being hunted by Pilgrim and the Christian extremists sucked. I hated how they kept the motivation for them hunting her vague for so long and grew very frustrated with Amy for not explaining to Frank what was going on. The eventual reveal was a let down. I pretty much hated Amy until she shot that drug dealer in the apartment building, from then on I started to like the character. Pilgrim was just void of personality and I could care less about the character. Madani, Amy, and the therapist all had a stubbornness that I really disliked. At least by the end Madani and Amy redeemed themselves and the therapist got dealt with. Frank, Billy, and Curtis were great and helped carry season 2. I also think the action was overall better throughout season 2 as compared to some stuff in season 1 that just went way too over the top, but to much slow talking. I don't like Jigsaw's fate at the end of this though, too good of a villain to kill off.
I hope we get a season 3, this version of Frank deserves it.
 
Finished Last two episodes...

As a whole it suffers from the same thing all the Marvel Netflix shows suffer from.. TOO MUCH FILLER!

These shows should either be 8 to 10 episode seasons or 40 min long shows. Just way too much talking and subplots.

Having said that I enjoyed this season a lot. There were great Punisher moments in all the episodes except for maybe 2. I at first hated the Billy / Therapist relationship but when they made her a full on villain I was good with it.

Loved how Frank took care of Business with Billy also... Thought for sure there would be some sappy "Brothers" dialogue but nope.. Perfect Punisher move.

Really wish we could have got a season 3.. Loved that final shot.

Shame on Jye for even bringing up Jane Punisher in this thread as anything more then the awful film it is :lol I just watched Cinema sins on it to refresh my memory.. Eek that's a bad movie. :)

Anyways, For Netflix shows staring The Punisher.. Like I said I liked this more then season one but not as much as Season 2 of Daredevil.

Had to come back and look at this.. I get where you are coming from.. I would say season 1 as a whole is better written but Season 2 felt more like a Punisher story and not military drama. There were things in season 1 that just left me board silly. Billy and his Anvil business.. The PTSD kid trying to join ANVIL... The twist of who killed Franks family.. The cop / Billy relationship.. Yep thought it was worse then the Dr / Billy relationship.. Again at least she became a villain. And worst of all.. I found Micro and his story to be pretty damn boring... Season 1 made Frank's story feel more like an afterthought and season 2 focused more on Frank.

Either way both seasons kick the crap out of Jane's Miami Vice presents The Punisher.

Thank you for coming to divine confession my son only thru spiritual guidance does one begin their long journey towards the cleansing of their conflicting impure thoughts such as these clouding your judgement of Jane’s fun silly movie being easily superior to Netflix’s excessively drawn out take on a one man killing machine.

lol
 
Jye... Unless the last two episodes are a complete waste... This season kicks season 1s Ass...

I think you have to revisit season 1 to see just how boring it was. This season has so many great moments.. Yeah Frank is not 100% Punisher but he is so much closer then season 1... I think you may just have Netflix Marvel fatigue.. The slow moments in this are no worse then the other shows.. In fact I think they have been better overall.

I don't know how we see this season so differently.

Oh and claiming Russian fight in the movie was better then this one.. Come on MAN!!

Such a great moment when Frank went to kill Billy and Billy had his guys ready for him and Frank wipes them out.

I really Hate Billy Russo this season. In a good way.. And the Dr. was annoying me but I like were they took her character.. Hate her as much as Russo.

Like the Preacher guy also..

This is much more like comics then Season 1 IMO and way more then the Jane movie :)

Daredevil Season 2 is still the best Punisher but if the last two episodes deliver then this will be very close.

Finally finished season 2, last night and yeah, I have to agree with everything you just wrote here. I liked season 2 a lot more than 1. Initially I was put off by the change to Russo from the comic books, but it ended up being an interesting take. And this season just seemed much more like Frank in his element, as The Punisher.
 
Thank you for coming to divine confession my son only thru spiritual guidance does one begin their long journey towards the cleansing of their conflicting impure thoughts such as these clouding your judgement of Jane’s fun silly movie being easily superior to Netflix’s excessively drawn out take on a one man killing machine.

lol

:lol :lol
 
Finished my rewatch of this and have to say better than I remembered. At the time liked it but like comments above about being slow at times and thought there was a lot of filler. But like DD i don’t think this anymore and the whole thing is really compelling. There is a ton of really really brutal action and all of the characters and relationships are really well done, well written and well acted. If I had to choose I might choose S1 over S2 but it’s pretty close.
 
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I guess I was one of the few who never had a problem with the pacing of this show. But then I wasn't a comic book guy and didn't have any real expectations of what a Punisher series should be like.

Hoping to do a rewatch of this after I finish up Daredevil.





IMHO, much of what was beloved about Frank Castle from the comics came from Garth Ennis. My take on Ennis is he conceived the Punisher as a bad person period. Conflicted yes. Under extreme and impossible circumstances yes. Having horrible unforgivable tragedy thrust upon him yes. But he was always a killer at heart. It was just bad luck and bad circumstances that helped the "mask" of a functional valued member of society ( soldiers are generally respected as a profession, they might not be seen positively in their individual actions, but it's considered generally honorable to serve) fall off. Whereas most superheroes have to face themselves and their demons and put the mask on, Castle never wears one. The worst kind of "mask", the fake inauthentic "civil member of society" falls apart.

Where I find the Punisher Marvel series struggles ( though I love Bernthal in the role) is it constantly tries to justify why Castle is the way he is and looks for a reason to rationalize it. Instead of presenting the complexity and allowing the viewer to decide for themselves, Marvel and The Big Mouse want to force the audience into a very narrow path of exposition, rationalization and explanation.

The Ennis conception of the Punisher does not DEER ( Defend / Excuse / Explain / Rationalize ) but the Marvel TV series tries in every possible way to do so. If you take all that away, the show has the ability to really stretch it's legs. The Punisher doesn't win because he fights monsters. He wins because he's the biggest monster period. There's a huge difference between having a "code" and being too self righteous to be a mobster, drug dealer, child molester, human trafficker, scam artist and grifter POS.

What Marvel did was make The Equalizer instead. ( i.e. Denzel looking for permission and soul searching to fill his heart with enough rage to kill all his cardboard cutout evil beyond all measure enemies) I have no problem with The Equalizer, if you want an ex CIA assassin working at a Home Depot who fights mobsters. But it's NOT the Punisher.

I want to be fair, I don't think one could make a truly honest visceral conception of The Punisher in the current television climate. That scene above, with the face burning, that caused lots of lobbyist groups to threaten FX to change the level of brutality in The Shield, or they would go after all the sponsors/advertisers for the network itself. But Vic Mackey, a corrupt detective, is a more honest conception of The Punisher than the Marvel version. It looks like he has a "code", but he's more offended that some POS child rapist thought he could get away with it on Mackey's turf. Another interesing comparison is a small sleeper show, Mr. Inbetween. Where the main character simply accepts he's not a good person. He does what he does because it's in his nature.

IMHO, here's an unpleasant truth about how people actually behave ( not their virtue signaling, not the crap that's indoctrinated by industry executives and writers who are heavily college educated, sheltered, grew up with money and opportunity, never went hungry and have no conception of how real working class people live and survive) - It's more desirable to be a bad person who is incredibly good at what they do versus a good person who is totally incompetent but means well.








 



IMHO, much of what was beloved about Frank Castle from the comics came from Garth Ennis. My take on Ennis is he conceived the Punisher as a bad person period. Conflicted yes. Under extreme and impossible circumstances yes. Having horrible unforgivable tragedy thrust upon him yes. But he was always a killer at heart. It was just bad luck and bad circumstances that helped the "mask" of a functional valued member of society ( soldiers are generally respected as a profession, they might not be seen positively in their individual actions, but it's considered generally honorable to serve) fall off. Whereas most superheroes have to face themselves and their demons and put the mask on, Castle never wears one. The worst kind of "mask", the fake inauthentic "civil member of society" falls apart.

Where I find the Punisher Marvel series struggles ( though I love Bernthal in the role) is it constantly tries to justify why Castle is the way he is and looks for a reason to rationalize it. Instead of presenting the complexity and allowing the viewer to decide for themselves, Marvel and The Big Mouse want to force the audience into a very narrow path of exposition, rationalization and explanation.

The Ennis conception of the Punisher does not DEER ( Defend / Excuse / Explain / Rationalize ) but the Marvel TV series tries in every possible way to do so. If you take all that away, the show has the ability to really stretch it's legs. The Punisher doesn't win because he fights monsters. He wins because he's the biggest monster period. There's a huge difference between having a "code" and being too self righteous to be a mobster, drug dealer, child molester, human trafficker, scam artist and grifter POS.

What Marvel did was make The Equalizer instead. ( i.e. Denzel looking for permission and soul searching to fill his heart with enough rage to kill all his cardboard cutout evil beyond all measure enemies) I have no problem with The Equalizer, if you want an ex CIA assassin working at a Home Depot who fights mobsters. But it's NOT the Punisher.

I want to be fair, I don't think one could make a truly honest visceral conception of The Punisher in the current television climate. That scene above, with the face burning, that caused lots of lobbyist groups to threaten FX to change the level of brutality in The Shield, or they would go after all the sponsors/advertisers for the network itself. But Vic Mackey, a corrupt detective, is a more honest conception of The Punisher than the Marvel version. It looks like he has a "code", but he's more offended that some POS child rapist thought he could get away with it on Mackey's turf. Another interesing comparison is a small sleeper show, Mr. Inbetween. Where the main character simply accepts he's not a good person. He does what he does because it's in his nature.

IMHO, here's an unpleasant truth about how people actually behave ( not their virtue signaling, not the crap that's indoctrinated by industry executives and writers who are heavily college educated, sheltered, grew up with money and opportunity, never went hungry and have no conception of how real working class people live and survive) - It's more desirable to be a bad person who is incredibly good at what they do versus a good person who is totally incompetent but means well.










I do agree with Gekko's criticism regarding The Punisher in television; Ennis explored (as he often does) a deplorable take on a character that was originally conceived within and limited by Marvel’s Comics Code universe.

And while I do find the absolute within your last paragraph to be unjustly polarizing of the overall human condition, I do think that it hints at how some of us have grown up with the comic book (and now cinematic) ideal of heroes:

Alan Moore (amongst others) has theorized that, despite our good intentions, we read these hero stories as a sort of cathartic release from our own inaction to influence good upon the world. Whether there is truth to that or not, there are definitely readers (me included) who enjoy seeing these modern idols use their power and influence for good (e.g. Hawkeye helping the people out of the bus in A1).

There also seems to be a mindset (greatly bolstered by the brutal pessimism of comics during the 80s) which favors rage, viscera and mental conflict to paint their now "deconstructed heroes" in. While this often creates (as Gekko mentioned) for freeing and expansive character exploration, it can be distressing for members of the first camp to see these takes applied to long-standing and beloved characters (e.g. Sue Dibny, Supes snapping Zod's neck in MoS).

Does Disney have the opportunity to explore a more Ennis take on Castle? I wouldn't have thought it possible until I saw the (albeit comic) violence in Deadpool and Wolverine. Will they do it? Probably not. The new heroes out there are now eclipsed by billion-dollar expectations and pressured to check as many boxes as possible. There will always be the possibility to have both feel-good catharsis and brutal pessimism in narratives, but I think that compressing all these qualities (and more) into a kind of superhero elevator music might end up trying to please the crowd at the expense of a concise and driven character study.

TL;DR This is the longest post that I can recall writing. It shan't happen again :p
 
I'm definitely aware that the comic Punisher was far more brutal and ruthless than what we saw on screen, but I still loved what Bernthal brought to the role with his more conflicted take, and watching him shift from this more honorable guy (with people like Karen) to an absolute badass whenever someone got in his way.
 
the show was kinda boring and packed strong villains.
Bernthal was actually really really good. one of the best choices to post him. I liked him.
but the rest of the cast wasn't great, and the police crap with the lady agent was AWFUL. AWFUL........ absolutely horrible. the lady was nice but that stuff ruined the show. I hated it .
the lady cop stuff is a reason I don't watch the show often

season 2 was better.
 
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