Joker: Folie à Deux

ironwez20 · Oct 6, 2024

Nah I do t like the “never was gonna be the real joker “ crap. So we are just wasting our time with one random guy and the real joker copied his entire look and flow and isn’t really original to begin with? That’s joker? A copy cat fraud? He stole an idea from a mentally ill comedian guy?

I was fine with a different take cause the movie made it clear most of the things he witnessed wasn’t real so all the stuff in the movie could be a fake origin like the real joker. I don’t need the joker to
Act like every other joker. Infact every joker in media acts different from the other. So wasting our time following some guy who’s not even the joker for like 4 hrs is silly to me.

Then it wasn’t a damn joker movie. We should have just followed the dude who stabbed Arthur.

That’s just a silly theory made up from dudes who didn’t like the portrayal. I’m sorry but it’s so dumb and the fact that he actually did that is lazy as hell.

jye4ever · Oct 7, 2024

ironwez20 said:
Nah I do t like the “never was gonna be the real joker “ crap. So we are just wasting our time with one random guy and the real joker copied his entire look and flow and isn’t really original to begin with? That’s joker? A copy cat fraud? He stole an idea from a mentally ill comedian guy?

I was fine with a different take cause the movie made it clear most of the things he witnessed wasn’t real so all the stuff in the movie could be a fake origin like the real joker. I don’t need the joker to
Act like every other joker. Infact every joker in media acts different from the other. So wasting our time following some guy who’s not even the joker for like 4 hrs is silly to me.

Then it wasn’t a damn joker movie. We should have just followed the dude who stabbed Arthur.

That’s just a silly theory made up from dudes who didn’t like the portrayal. I’m sorry but it’s so dumb and the fact that he actually did that is lazy as hell.

ZaCHw117 · Oct 7, 2024

ironwez20 said:
Nah I do t like the “never was gonna be the real joker “ crap. So we are just wasting our time with one random guy and the real joker copied his entire look and flow and isn’t really original to begin with? That’s joker? A copy cat fraud? He stole an idea from a mentally ill comedian guy?

I was fine with a different take cause the movie made it clear most of the things he witnessed wasn’t real so all the stuff in the movie could be a fake origin like the real joker. I don’t need the joker to
Act like every other joker. Infact every joker in media acts different from the other. So wasting our time following some guy who’s not even the joker for like 4 hrs is silly to me.

Then it wasn’t a damn joker movie. We should have just followed the dude who stabbed Arthur.

That’s just a silly theory made up from dudes who didn’t like the portrayal. I’m sorry but it’s so dumb and the fact that he actually did that is lazy as hell.

doesn’t really matter if you like it, that’s what Todd Phillips did. :lol

ironwez20 · Oct 7, 2024

ZaCHw117 said:
doesn’t really matter if you like it, that’s what Todd Phillips did.

Still sucks. And dude will probably be black listed forever and lost the studio millions so I mean. Good on him lol

Wor-Gar · Oct 7, 2024

Todd who...?

Mandible · Oct 7, 2024

People can love it and justify it all they want, but the simple harsh reality is that the vast majority of audiences hated it beyond words and thus it's tanked.

But if that's what Phillips wanted to achieve, good for him - and Warner Bros gave him the rope to do it. If that's the legacy he wants to leave behind, so be it. I genuinely hope this has made him happy.

But... my grievance isn't so much the film (frankly, I don't give a ****), but this attacking the fans **** is getting real thin. These ***** forget how lucky they are to be able to make films for a living - let alone being paid the ridiculous amounts of money they get.

The Clown Prince of Crime · Oct 7, 2024

I don't mind the idea of Arthur being a proto-Joker. However, I don't see what makes the guy that killed him the "real" Joker, just because he gave himself a glasgow smile. How does that make him more Joker than Arthur? I think as far as the public is concern in the movie, Arthur is joker, whatever the hell that means. They'll remember the Murray incident and the riots and the clown motif. Maybe by the time Bruce Wayne grows up and becomes Batman, assuming that happens in this iteration, maybe there will be someone who calls himself THE Joker, or better yet, the press calls him The Joker as a reference to that Arthur guy from 20+ years ago.

Wor-Gar · Oct 7, 2024

There will be no reference of this Joker in the new DC Gunn universe.

The Clown Prince of Crime · Oct 7, 2024

Wor-Gar said:
There will be no reference of this Joker in the new DC Gunn universe.

We'll get another Joker, but they should just give Joker a break for at least 10 years.

Wor-Gar · Oct 7, 2024

DiostaR picked Ewan Mitchell for Joker... and I really like this casting call...

The Clown Prince of Crime · Oct 7, 2024

I just googled that guy. Holy crap, talk about being born to play a role.

The mother***** doesn't even need makeup, just paint his lips red and dye his hair green and that's it.

Remembermyname · Oct 7, 2024

The Clown Prince of Crime said:
Everyone is getting raped!!

You getting raped!

You're getting raped!!

Easy to allege, hard to prove, harder to disprove.

Sachiel · Oct 7, 2024

The Clown Prince of Crime said:
I don't mind the idea of Arthur being a proto-Joker. However, I don't see what makes the guy that killed him the "real" Joker, just because he gave himself a glasgow smile. How does that make him more Joker than Arthur? I think as far as the public is concern in the movie, Arthur is joker, whatever the hell that means. They'll remember the Murray incident and the riots and the clown motif. Maybe by the time Bruce Wayne grows up and becomes Batman, assuming that happens in this iteration, maybe there will be someone who calls himself THE Joker, or better yet, the press calls him The Joker as a reference to that Arthur guy from 20+ years ago.

Maybe Bruce grows up afraid of clowns and becomes the Joker himself!

"It's time my enemies share my dread."

denrep-lilium · Oct 7, 2024

Nick D said:
Notice how in this film, there was no real chaos like the first. I don’t need a criminal mastermind, a Ledger reenactment, for the sequel.

What I did need was Arthur to continue the Joker persona he developed at the first films resolve, yet we don’t see a spec of that guy, he’s not present here.

The chaotic riots of the clown movement weren’t even touched on like the first, intentionally. Thomas Wayne, a runner for Mayor was killed due to those riots and yet it has zero impact, on anything. Let’s make a musical.

Phillips is a genius.
The first movie shows social injustice that throws Arthur into aggressive madness. People love him when he is killing. Thus the "killing joke". Fans in the movie and real-life ones love it. But he is looking for love. Love seems to be around among his fan base. But...

The second movie shows that Arthur has to be Joker, Lee, and others do not care about him to be loved. All they need is entertainment. They are blowing up buildings and setting Gotham on fire. Fans need hallucinated songs, thus Arthur asks Lee to stop singing. But she cares only for the shadow of Arthur. Lee is a rich girl, just like Wayne. The difference is that Wayne and Murray are modern-type establishments, that do not take social problems seriously, and Lee and fandom are contemporary (postmodern) crybabies that live a normal life and like the feeling of Joker, but do not care for justice and real Arthurs ("you can leave it anytime"). There is still no love for Arthur. Because only one clown has high stakes in the movie.

The songs are perfect too. Because they are telling the story. For instance, the mountain narrative is about self-deception and falling for public approval:
"What the world needs now is love, sweet love
It's the only thing that there's just too little of
What the world needs now is love, sweet love
No, not just for some but for everyone

Lord, we don't need another mountain
There are mountains and hillsides enough to climb
There are oceans and rivers enough to cross
Enough to last till the end of time

...
We're gonna build a mountain from a little hill
Gonna build me a mountain, least I hope I will
Gonna build a mountain, gonna build it high
I don't know how we're gonna do it, only know we're gonna try

...
When I build that mountain as I will someday
And the Lord sends Gabriel to take me away
Ah, what a fine young son to take my place
I'll leave a son in a heaven on earth
With the good Lord's grace"

Phillips creates a movie that reflects the real-life audience when he breaks the fourth wall and uses irony, post-irony, and meta-irony simultaneously. He has also created the best criticism of rich girls playing socialists since Titaniс.

Concerning "The Joker", the movie says that "everyone can be Joker" because "as an idea you can't be killed". People need Jokers to attack state institutions and burn cars... you know.

People need to learn to see stories, not the illusions they created and came with to the cinema. And the movie is doing that. Most probably feel that and are unhappy.

"There's always a joker in the pack
There's always a lonely clown
The poor laughing fool falls on his back
And everyone laughs when he's down
There's always a funny man in the game
But he's only funny by mistake
And everyone looks at him just the same
They don't see his lonely heart break

They don't care as long as there is a jester, just a fool
As foolish as he can be..."

The joker is me...

GaryPool · Oct 7, 2024

denrep-lilium said:
Phillips is a genius.
The first movie shows social injustice that throws Arthur into aggressive madness. People love him when he is killing. Thus the "killing joke". Fans in the movie and real-life ones love it. But he is looking for love. Love seems to be around among his fan base. But...

The second movie shows that Arthur has to be Joker, Lee, and others do not care about him to be loved. All they need is entertainment. They are blowing up buildings and setting Gotham on fire. Fans need hallucinated songs, thus Arthur asks Lee to stop singing. But she cares only for the shadow of Arthur. Lee is a rich girl, just like Wayne. The difference is that Wayne and Murray are modern-type establishments, that do not take social problems seriously, and Lee and fandom are contemporary (postmodern) crybabies that live a normal life and like the feeling of Joker, but do not care for justice and real Arthurs ("you can leave it anytime"). There is still no love for Arthur. Because only one clown has high stakes in the movie.

The songs are perfect too. Because they are telling the story. For instance, the mountain narrative is about self-deception and falling for public approval:
"What the world needs now is love, sweet love
It's the only thing that there's just too little of
What the world needs now is love, sweet love
No, not just for some but for everyone

Lord, we don't need another mountain
There are mountains and hillsides enough to climb
There are oceans and rivers enough to cross
Enough to last till the end of time

...
We're gonna build a mountain from a little hill
Gonna build me a mountain, least I hope I will
Gonna build a mountain, gonna build it high
I don't know how we're gonna do it, only know we're gonna try

...
When I build that mountain as I will someday
And the Lord sends Gabriel to take me away
Ah, what a fine young son to take my place
I'll leave a son in a heaven on earth
With the good Lord's grace"

Phillips creates a movie that reflects the real-life audience when he breaks the fourth wall and uses irony, post-irony, and meta-irony simultaneously. He has also created the best criticism of rich girls playing socialists since Titanik.

Concerning "The Joker", the movie says that "everyone can be Joker" because "as an idea you can't be killed". People need Jokers to attack state institutions and burn cars... you know.

People need to learn to see stories, not the illusions they created and came with to the cinema. And the movie is doing that. Most probably feel that and are unhappy.

"There's always a joker in the pack
There's always a lonely clown
The poor laughing fool falls on his back
And everyone laughs when he's down
There's always a funny man in the game
But he's only funny by mistake
And everyone looks at him just the same
They don't see his lonely heart break

They don't care as long as there is a jester, just a fool
As foolish as he can be..."

The joker is me...

It's a great continuation of the first film.

denrep-lilium · Oct 7, 2024

I find it ironic that fans of Fight Club admire Tyler, and he is a bad manipulative part of the story.

By the way, it was also a box office flop, like many other cult movies.

It reminded me of this

GaryPool · Oct 7, 2024

denrep-lilium said:
I find it ironic that fans of Fight Club admire Tyler, and he is a bad manipulative part of the story. By the way, it was also a box office flop, like many other cult movies.

It reminded me of this

To be honest I'm surprised fans of the first film are turned off by it. Murray was a great example of literally saying to his face that nothing justified murdering all those people, and Flecks argument, that left wing leaning people hated, even though it's left wing leaning train of thought, was that there's people like him that are overlooked by society by the government as a whole and disregarded - the films ultimate message being people like this exist, scenarios exist in every country where we let people slip through the cracks, and they should be helped.

It's what heightens this film even more, the same thing is happening with the first, it's being called not-so-deep and this and that and it really isn't that deep, it is very obvious, and yet people still misunderstand the messaging to at least the degree of expecting to actually have a Joker film. If you liked the first film, presumably it's because you were on board with him not being The Joker but perhaps inspiring another. The fact this film is so meta in that it obviously knows what people wanted but says really? You think he became the Joker in the first film? Or the culture around celebrating violent personas etc. is going to be glorified now and against the first films messaging...

C'est magnifique! It earned its French title, if only it ended with Fin. (this sentence was written in jest)

Nick D · Oct 7, 2024

Showing Arthur’s depressing life for another two hours doesn’t make Phillips a genius.

He brings nothing new to this, at all.

I got his convoluted message before the first film ended, and only decided to view this to see how he plays this all out since he’s actively telling us there’s more to the story, I have more to tell, well he didn’t have more to tell, simply to waste people's time.

You claim he’s a genius yet wouldn’t watch these films, nor put them in high regard, know their existence, if it weren’t for the IP or the actor in the role. He’s no genius for making a billion off of Joker, let’s see him make a billion off of Randall’s story and character arc.

So, knowing this, how can you also be ok with an interpretation deconstructing the very reason we’ve come to watch.

The film is called Joker, therefore the character on screen for the bloated run time, needs to be The Joker, not a Joker type.

He’s backed into a corner and now wants to change the story because people don’t like it, why have him meet Bruce at the Wayne property gate, just because Phillips had no intentions of pairing a Batman with this, doesn’t mean this wasn’t intended to be his Joker.

How can you say he’s a genius, he made this with $200 million, it’s a flop, financially, critically panned. Just because the odd person liked it, doesn’t mean it’s a great film with a lot to say. Naturally, a film where characters sing anytime a bit of serious dialogue gets said, doesn’t have anything important to say.

I never anticipated this Joker to rob a mob bank like TDK, to tear Gotham down from the inside out.

I was on board with the character created here, but only if you’re not attempting to use this exceptional character to push your convoluted story that was never meant for him.

That’s the epitome of lazy storytelling, Phillips had to take an existing IP, and degrade its fans, because they weren’t accepting of his critical failure this time around.

Captain Clown · Oct 7, 2024

Is this even worth seeing for the lulz, and Brendan Gleeson? :lol

Kinda considering seeing it next weekend, even though all the spoilers I’ve read are terrible.

Nick D · Oct 7, 2024

Ledger died before the film released, yet the Nolan brothers didn’t panic and change the story before it was viewed.

They didn’t say oh that’s a Joker type because they could no longer use Ledger in Rises. No, they said this is our story and if we’re to have a sequel it won’t feature Joker at all, not even a mention, all out of respect for the actor and character in their story.

You see Phillips never cared about the Joker character, hence why his version is so vastly different in a negative way and suffers from it.

Phillips only cared about making a low flying Taxi Driver esque character study because his films were never artistic enough like his peers and those before him.

So in a way, I suppose it is the fans fault for trusting in his vision. He told us years ago that the film he wanted to make couldn’t get made easily without the IP carrying the weight for him.

Someone who comes to the table with intentions like that, never cared about us or The Joker character. It doesn’t make you mad that he uses us, then goes on to mock us for liking a character far out of Phillips’ depth.

All this praise to him yet the backbone here is Phoenix. If your story is so genius, let’s see it perform without the IP and caliber of actor leading it along. Joker fans made your film a billion dollars, not your quote on quote genius.

The first film couldn’t even stand on its own story and script wise, even in its attempt at camouflaging those copy and paste elements with a larger than life character and actor at the helm.

Joker: Folie à Deux

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