Aquaman (2018)

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

The significance of the Martha Moment™ seems to have been lost on many, .

I don't think the significance was lost at all. If anything, Snyder made it kind of obvious, which is fine. The flashback to his parents dying and saying the name and the tombstone scenes were probably unnecessary, but they had to make it obvious. Batman saving his mother was also obvious, but it made the warehouse scene good, probably the best sequence in the film, not just because of the action, but because of the motivation an set up.

I understand that the Martha moment is supposed to be this ironic magical movie moment between two very different characters that have something in common that most people never noticed before, but I think people have a problem with it because of the exceution, and set up, rather than not getting the message or meaning.

If anything, some people tend to overanalyze these movies or and find meaning in isolated scenes by noticing the historical or religious references that Snyder likes to use, and think those layers make the movie some kind of complex masterpiece that people just don't understand as a way to justify the negative reception, but in the process ignore the real flaws in the film's pacing, editing, dialogue, and writing.

A lot of people do that with the Matrix sequels, which I love, and understand all the Eastern philosophy and religious symbolism, but it doesn't mean I don't notice the bad cgi or the repetitive structure of the action sequences and long speeches scenes. Anyways, I'm glad you like BvS. I wish I could like it too.

 

[Prime Clone]

I understand that the Martha moment is supposed to be this ironic magical movie moment between two very different characters that have something in common that most people never noticed before

It's a little deeper than that. Sadly the lack of full appreciation leads to memes like this:

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

Well, it was almost that quick in the film.

 

[jye4ever]

I completely forgot both were named Martha I was stunned and embarrassed when it happened lol

 

[abake]

I caught JL on HBO last night, and I was surprised at how much I was enjoying the movie (not that I didn't the first time around, but it felt a bit silly after MOS and BvS), and then I got to the third act... that's where the movie really suffers with all the silly jokes.
So, yeah, it stays at the bottom along with SS.
Such a shame, it was so cool to see Bruce and Diana making plans for the Hall of Justice in Wayne Manor.

 

[The Buffinator]

What I meant was, it didn't matter how they arrived at that scene. Why Clark called her Martha rather than Mom isn't a big issue in the overall scheme of things. As Rainpaulo said above, it's just a movie, and audiences are often expected to suspend disbelief for the sake of expediency.




No, it had to be just "Martha" because in Bruce's mind he was saving his own mother. She was his "surrogate Martha". He said, "Martha won't die tonight."

This was his Silence of the Lambs moment where he freed himself from a life of petty-crime-fighting by "saving Martha". It also replaced the legacy he originally wanted, that of killing Superman.

The significance of the Martha Moment™ seems to have been lost on many, but I'm not sure it could have been done any better. Maybe it can only be appreciated by hardcore Batfans.

Expecting suspension of disbelief is one thing; asking your audience to accept an awkward, poorly executed idea at a key moment in the film is another. And you're probably right that it likely could not have been done better, which in my mind means it should not have been done at all.

I understand that the Martha moment is supposed to be this ironic magical movie moment between two very different characters that have something in common that most people never noticed before, but I think people have a problem with it because of the execution, and set up, rather than not getting the message or meaning.

This.

 

[M United]

I caught JL on HBO last night, and I was surprised at how much I was enjoying the movie (not that I didn't the first time around, but it felt a bit silly after MOS and BvS), and then I got to the third act... that's where the movie really suffers with all the silly jokes.
So, yeah, it stays at the bottom along with SS.
Such a shame, it was so cool to see Bruce and Diana making plans for the Hall of Justice in Wayne Manor.

The opening Batman and Themyscyra scenes where a delight to watch shame the second half of the movie went downhill.

 

[Prime Clone]

And you're probably right that it likely could not have been done better, which in my mind means it should not have been done at all.

Perhaps. I'm still on board with it because it was a profound way for Bruce to bury his demons. It also was an effective way to defuse the conflict between Bats and Supes so they could team up in time to take on Doomsday (which, after all, wasn't part of the movie's original plan).

 

[Johnny1378]

I caught JL on HBO last night, and I was surprised at how much I was enjoying the movie (not that I didn't the first time around, but it felt a bit silly after MOS and BvS), and then I got to the third act... that's where the movie really suffers with all the silly jokes.
So, yeah, it stays at the bottom along with SS.
Such a shame, it was so cool to see Bruce and Diana making plans for the Hall of Justice in Wayne Manor.

Classic Warner Bros. over-correction.
Warner Bros: “Oh, so some people thought MOS and BvS were a little too dark? Okay, let’s fire the director and turn JL into a comedy.”

And the frustrating thing is that when you’re watching it, you can kind of tell where the changes are (and I don’t just mean Vaseline face Superman), and you can see that the makings of a good movie may have been there. As you said, there’s even a lot to like in what’s still there. But what you’re left with as a whole is this patchwork, Frankenstein monster of a movie.

 

[abake]

Yeah, it's a tragedy, really.
They really should've left Snyder end his trilogy... I really doubt a full on Snyder cut would've done much less at the Box Office, and then WB could've gone on with the lighter, more optimistic tone of WW and AM.

 

[The Buffinator]

Perhaps. I'm still on board with it because it was a profound way for Bruce to bury his demons. It also was an effective way to defuse the conflict between Bats and Supes so they could team up in time to take on Doomsday (which, after all, wasn't part of the movie's original plan).

I agree it works for Bruce/Batman, but obviously I found it too jarring from a Clark standpoint. But I’ve belabored the point enough - let’s agree to disagree.
Doomsday wasn’t originally planned for BvS? I either didn’t know or have forgotten that fact. What about WW and setting up the rest of the JL - were those later additions as well?

 

[Prime Clone]

Doomsday wasn’t originally planned for BvS? I either didn’t know or have forgotten that fact. What about WW and setting up the rest of the JL - were those later additions as well?

BvS was originally slated for 2015, then delayed a year. This is just supposition on my part, but it felt like the film was originally meant to climax with the Bats-Supes duel. The Doomsday sequence felt like an afterthought, an attempt to fast-track JL rather than wait for a couple more solo movies.

 

[The Buffinator]

BvS was originally slated for 2015, then delayed a year. This is just supposition on my part, but it felt like the film was originally meant to climax with the Bats-Supes duel. The Doomsday sequence felt like an afterthought, an attempt to fast-track JL rather than wait for a couple more solo movies.

Interesting. If not Doomsday, it makes one wonder what scheme Lex would have been up to, other than having them fight & possibly kill each other. I’m assuming he was in the script from the start - got to have at least one true villain in there.

 

[Khev]

Yeah the fact that Doomsday provided such a convenient use for the Krypronite spear has me thinking that he was going to be there all along. He was still introduced into the DCEU way too early but I doubt he was a last minute shoehorn into BvS per se.

 

[jye4ever]

BvS with all of its imperfections warts and all is a sweeping Lawrence of Arabia style masterpiece when compared to that juvenile JL junk.

This is JL:

JL minus Superman loses to playstation 2 Steppenwolf.

JL with Superman beats playstation 2 Steppenwolf.

ZERO TENSION!

Aquaman is a masterpiece when compared to JL.

 

[Khev]

MOS/BvS/SS/WW/AM is an acceptable five film universe IMO. Nothing builds to JL and JL isnt even referenced in AM.

It's the complete opposite of The Avengers. BvS acted like it was building toward Knightmare war but JL didn't even provide that. SS referenced Superman's death which acknowledges BvS but nothing acknowledges his resurrection. Even WW2 will take place in 1984.

JL couldn't be more superfluous (which is insane) but thankfully that makes it incredibly easy to just compartmentalize the entire DCEU away from it.

 

[Johnny1378]

The thing that just makes me shake my head is that Warner Bros is now using the success of Wonder Woman and Aquaman as an argument for de-emphasizing a shared universe. Time will tell what that actually means, but the thing is, a shared universe was never their problem. The same way a shared universe has never been a problem at Marvel. It isn’t having shared universe, it’s the approach to having a shared universe. Marvel’s shared universe works because they don’t sacrifice the stories they’re telling in each individual movie for the sake of having some continuity across their films. If Warner Brothers spent time making each film a quality film, it wouldn’t make a difference if there was continuity between films or not. Of course just throwing story out the window for the sake of sequel bait doesn’t work. But that’s not unique to Warner Bros. If they concentrate on making each movie good, a shared universe could work fine.

 

[spindrift]

JL was yanked from Snyder after the bad reactions(over the top) to BvS. He filmed it and WB hated it because I'm sure too much like BvS in tone. JL was a mess and I'd love to hear the true story of what went on...(like RO and Solo)

 

[jye4ever]

MOS/BvS/SS/WW/AM is an acceptable five film universe IMO. Nothing builds to JL and JL isnt even referenced in AM.

It's the complete opposite of The Avengers. BvS acted like it was building toward Knightmare war but JL didn't even provide that. SS referenced Superman's death which acknowledges BvS but nothing acknowledges his resurrection. Even WW2 will take place in 1984.

JL couldn't be more superfluous (which is insane) but thankfully that makes it incredibly easy to just compartmentalize the entire DCEU away from it.

My DCEU collection vs JL bluray:

 

[Khev]

Poor Cyborg and Flash, lol.