Action Figure CC_TOYS the last survivor Joe

[R_R_X]

It's funny because this game reminds me of something pewdiepie said: "It's not a game's job to change the world". Like you said, TLOU pt 2 tries to do just that and in doing so compromises on the story and characters we loved

Considering the amount of time I have spent contemplating on this game, having been in cycles of love and hate over it, I've ultimately arrived at this point of equilibrium where I view this game neither as a masterpiece nor being bad. Personally, I give it a 6 or a 7, but I can understand if someone thinks this game is amazing. The one thing I can say with certainty, is that I don't see myself changing my opinion that this sequel felt needless and unnecessary. I also think the first game should have been left alone, with the fate of our beloved characters remaining uncertain, with the audience nevertheless knowing that no matter what the harsh and unforgiving world may throw at them, they would face it together.
Terrific review.

You're pretty good.

Thanks, I don't think I came off as well as I would've liked but I pretty much agree with everything you said, I did forget to talk about one very important aspect, so I'll do it now.
One of my biggest gripes with Part 2 is how it completely undoes the ending of the original and Joel and Ellies relationship, the ending of the first one was one of the most powerful endings in any medium I've see because of how much weight it carried.
There were so many layers to it and so many ways you could interpert it, one could make a pretty strong argument as to why Joel made the right call just like someone else could make another equally strong argument as to why what he did was wrong. I have analyzed that ending so many times and over the years I have found myself comming up with my own idea about it, which I'm sure is different with everyone, I ultimately think Joel wasn't either right or wrong, just like the fireflies weren't right wrong, it is pretty clear that the fireflies in the first game were at the end of their rope, Marlene had travelled halfway across the country to reach that hospital and their only hope was basically praying Joel did right by them and delivered the goods, only nobody would ever expect Joel and Ellie would have grown to love eachother as father and daughter. We see Joel doesn't even want to go ahead with the whole mission anymore, yet Ellies pushes on because after everything she lost, after everything they both went trough together, "it can't be for nothing"... they push on and end up having a near death expirience at the tunnels when they almost drown, Joel desperately tries to revive Ellie only to be knocked out by firefly soldiers. The next time we see him he's waking up at the hospital with Marlene sitting next to him, knowing that Ellie is safe, we feel relief, then we learn the awful truth, that for a chance for a vaccine to actually be extracted from Ellie it means she must die, we expirience that same exact shock Joel does, we feel the confusion, the "what the *****" of it all, especially with Marlene, who is a strong character in her own right tells Joel she is going trough the exact same thing but she will not let her emotions get in the way of everything she has fought for her, and we can also understand where she's comming from, and so, unfairly, she tells the soldier next to her to escort Joel out of the hospital, without his backpack, his weapons, or even the payment him and Tess were promised at the beginning of the game, then Joel makes the decision that he's not about to let it be for nothing... and after going trough the hospital, either killing ot sneaking around depending on the player, listening to tapes from Marlene that explicitly state the fireflies wanted to kill Joel and that killing Ellie might not even result in a vaccine, he makes it to that operating room, and he sees the light of his life on that table like cattle, and he does what any father would do in that position, he saves her... at the cost of the surgeons life, even after the latter pleas to Joel to think about the bigger picture, that killing Ellie could possibly save the world, but in Joels mind his world had already been saved, by the same girl laying on that table, and for him to lose her would mean his world go to darkness again, a selfish decison no doubt but one made out of pure love, as we carry Ellie out of the hospital mirroring the openning with carrying Sarah, the story culminates in a powerful and emotional moment as Joel saves his daughter this time.

Then we get the ending, the final talk between Joel and Ellie, Ellie knows something isn't right and Joel picks up on it, and now comes the part people can interpert it in any way, Ellies makes Joel swear to her that everything he said about the fireflies was true and he swears to which she takes a moment and replies with a simple "ok". Brilliant, just thinking about it now I get chills. I myself interperted it as Joel in his own way, telling Ellie she was his "something to fight for" and Ellie clearly seeing trough his lie, accepting it because she also loves him, it made for a beautiful, strong ending layered with several moral questions that linger in your mind and could be discussed for years.

And then Part 2 happens.

The game opens already completely undoing the ending of the first and removing any ambiguity about Joels decision, Joel is cast in a dark light as in the flashbacks we see he murdered his way trough that hospital, angrily murdered the surgeon, and took Ellie in his arms and disappeared into the darkness as ominous music plays in the background. We then get more exposition on this with the beginning of Abbys half of the game, we see her and her dad, Jerry the surgeon, having a great father-daughter relationship, saving a Zebra and reuniting her with her baby to then have Owen tell them that Joel has arrived at the hospital with Ellie, we have a Marlene cameo that casts her in a more sympathetic light as she asks Jerry "what if it was your child", we see her clearly conflicted at the idea of letting Ellie be sacrificed for a vaccine when in the first game she was fierce and convicted that klling Ellie is the only way to get a vaccine, Jerry assures Marlene that killing Ellie will 100% result in a vaccine, umlike the first game where going by Marlenes tapes and her journal, the vaccine was never a certainty but nope we are assured that there's no room for error, killing Ellie means the world will be saved, never mind that it would be impossible for the fireflies to mass produce a vaccine and somehow have it ship worldwide, if anthing it would be more likely they would keep it for themeselves and use it to gain political advantage over fedra and whoever is in charge, and then to tear down the final barrier we have Abby explicitly tell her dad that killing Ellie is the right decision, that if she was in Ellies place she would want him to sacrifice her for the good of humanity. It's such a lazy and obvious retcon that destroys the ending of the first that considering it canon automaticaly diminishes the impact of the first game.

We then have the big reason for Joel and Ellies falling out, Ellie finds the truth, that Joel killed Jerry, who was apparently, the ONLY surgeon left alive that could produce a vaccine never mind that there is a whole world outside of America where there could very well be someone trying to work on a cure as well but I digress, Ellies main reason for not being able to forgive Joel for his decision is because he took away her agency and what could've been the meaning of her life, and I can understand, I actually would've liked to have seen it further explored in a proper way in the sequel which unfortunately didn't happen, Ellie blames Joel for taking away her agency but... didn't the fireflies do the same exact thing, Ellie went passed out from the tunnels directly to the operating table, she was never woken up, Marlene never had the dignity to have a final talk with her, Ellie never got to make a choice, what if she didn't want to die? would the fireflies just kill her anyway? this is never explored or aknowledged by Ellie, we are just told that she would be 100% ok with dying, and I love that they at least kept Joel consistent and had him say he would "do it all over again", the reason for their falling out being "Joel took away her agency and meaning from her death" is just so incredibly lazy to me, what about the fact that joel killed Marlene? Who was like a second mother to Ellie, or that Joel never tells her that a vaccine was never a given and she could've been killed for nothing, the way Ellie treats Joel in the following years is so disrespectful as well, I don't believe she would be so mad at Joel for 2 years that she would treat him like dog ***** for acting like a father when some ******* calls her a d*ke, it just felt like forced drama and something Ellie wouldn't do. If they didn't retcon the whole firefly/hospital incident and turned Ellie into an unseferabble brat, and explored all the reasons Ellie could be mad at Joel, their falling out could've been so much more impactful, especially if the game had focused more on Ellie and we had more flashbacks showing the natural degradation of their relationship before Joels demise, instead all of that is shoved into a short flashback sequence where Joel doesn't even properly explain himself to Ellie and we are just supposed to take it at face value, it's a damn shame all of what that story could've been had to be condensed to a few flashbacks because they needed to save the other half of the game for Abby.

That's basically my thoughts about that, again a very long read, thanks to anyone who read the whole thing, this post and the last, and to anyone reading this that strongly disagrees, even tho our opinons might be vastly different I hope you can understand that my criticism comes from a place of geniune love for these characters and my disappointment is rooted in how their story and relationship was discarded in favor of a protagonist that should've never existed in the first place, or at least not as a part of Joel and Ellies story, making their journey of the first game "be for nothing".

 

[TurdFurgusonsHat]

Angry Joe has released a part 2 review discussion if anyone wants to watch. He confirms Naughty Dog hired the third party copyright strikers(basically hitmen) to manipulate and break rules on platforms such as YouTube to copyright strike and silence anybody speaking negatively about the game. Joe also confirmed Sony and Naughty Dog participated in review rigging by reaching out and making suggestions to reviewers, which of course amounts to making a threat.

 

[Asta]

One of my biggest gripes with Part 2 is how it completely undoes the ending of the original and Joel and Ellies relationship, the ending of the first one was one of the most powerful endings in any medium I've see because of how much weight it carried.
There were so many layers to it and so many ways you could interpert it, one could make a pretty strong argument as to why Joel made the right call just like someone else could make another equally strong argument as to why what he did was wrong. I have analyzed that ending so many times and over the years I have found myself comming up with my own idea about it, which I'm sure is different with everyone, I ultimately think Joel wasn't either right or wrong, just like the fireflies weren't right wrong, it is pretty clear that the fireflies in the first game were at the end of their rope, Marlene had travelled halfway across the country to reach that hospital and their only hope was basically praying Joel did right by them and delivered the goods, only nobody would ever expect Joel and Ellie would have grown to love eachother as father and daughter. We see Joel doesn't even want to go ahead with the whole mission anymore, yet Ellies pushes on because after everything she lost, after everything they both went trough together, "it can't be for nothing"... they push on and end up having a near death expirience at the tunnels when they almost drown, Joel desperately tries to revive Ellie only to be knocked out by firefly soldiers. The next time we see him he's waking up at the hospital with Marlene sitting next to him, knowing that Ellie is safe, we feel relief, then we learn the awful truth, that for a chance for a vaccine to actually be extracted from Ellie it means she must die, we expirience that same exact shock Joel does, we feel the confusion, the "what the *****" of it all, especially with Marlene, who is a strong character in her own right tells Joel she is going trough the exact same thing but she will not let her emotions get in the way of everything she has fought for her, and we can also understand where she's comming from, and so, unfairly, she tells the soldier next to her to escort Joel out of the hospital, without his backpack, his weapons, or even the payment him and Tess were promised at the beginning of the game, then Joel makes the decision that he's not about to let it be for nothing... and after going trough the hospital, either killing ot sneaking around depending on the player, listening to tapes from Marlene that explicitly state the fireflies wanted to kill Joel and that killing Ellie might not even result in a vaccine, he makes it to that operating room, and he sees the light of his life on that table like cattle, and he does what any father would do in that position, he saves her... at the cost of the surgeons life, even after the latter pleas to Joel to think about the bigger picture, that killing Ellie could possibly save the world, but in Joels mind his world had already been saved, by the same girl laying on that table, and for him to lose her would mean his world go to darkness again, a selfish decison no doubt but one made out of pure love, as we carry Ellie out of the hospital mirroring the openning with carrying Sarah, the story culminates in a powerful and emotional moment as Joel saves his daughter this time.

Then we get the ending, the final talk between Joel and Ellie, Ellie knows something isn't right and Joel picks up on it, and now comes the part people can interpert it in any way, Ellies makes Joel swear to her that everything he said about the fireflies was true and he swears to which she takes a moment and replies with a simple "ok". Brilliant, just thinking about it now I get chills. I myself interperted it as Joel in his own way, telling Ellie she was his "something to fight for" and Ellie clearly seeing trough his lie, accepting it because she also loves him, it made for a beautiful, strong ending layered with several moral questions that linger in your mind and could be discussed for years.

You hit the nail on the head with your point about 'interpretation'. TLOU and TLOU2 aren't simple tales, and are worthy of debate and thought. For anyone like yourself, who has experienced the entire story, there may not be a right or wrong interpretation, only a personal one. The endings of both games are quite open ended, and while the game play is linear the characters' actions may be interpreted differently.


TLOU was a complex story, with an ambiguous ending. Joel's TLOU story begins with a heartbreaking prologue that makes his decision by the end almost inevitable, regardless of whatever likely consequences there will be. His love for Ellie is selfish in light of the prospect for a vaccine, but love is love - it's an irrational emotion. So it's a completely understandable course of action. The way TLOU2 depicts the act puts Joel in an impossible situation, and there's little option for a peaceful resolution. This is repeated again in TLOU2 when Ellie has to deal with Owen and Mel, and the results of both actions sustain Abby's hatred for first Joel, and then Ellie.

And then Part 2 happens.

This is where individual interpretation plays its part again. I don't see TLOU undoing the first part, but rather building upon it by dealing with the psychological/emotional fallout. How would these characters go on with their lives with that event hanging over them?

Druckmann is credited as the writer for TLOU, and he's obviously deeply involved in the direction of TLOU2. He knows the characters best, and didn't want to tell a shallow story since the characters are deeper than that. Hence, as in life, people change. The ending of TLOU was a seismic emotional event for Joel. He couldn't bear to tell Ellie the truth, even though she might already suspect it. Not only is he living with the guilt of his action, but also the guilt of lying to Ellie. On top of this Ellie has grown more distant from him because of the lie.


As you quoted, Ellie said in TLOU, "it can't be for nothing." By the end of TLOU she's been told it was for nothing, and never could've been anything.



The seeds of TLOU2 were planted in that quote from Ellie. It was the cause for her inability to forgive Joel, and in turn her failure to forgive him weighs upon her even more greatly when it's too late to do so.

TLOU2 is the culmination of living for 4-5 years with the emotional fallout of TLOU. Just as TLOU didn't have a fairy tale ending, so TLOU2 continues onward down that darker path of moral ambiguity, with characters whose emotions are in such turmoil that they don't always act in what might be regarded as a rational manner. In a more regular video game the protagonists might take it in their stride and move on. Yet the TLOU series seeks to go deeper, and present characters who are victims of emotion, and in which successive life-changing events lead towards psychotic breaks, and for Ellie post traumatic stress disorder as well.


But, as before, these stories are a personal experience, and each person's journey isn't going to be identical or be received positively.

 

[R_R_X]

You hit the nail on the head with your point about 'interpretation'. TLOU and TLOU2 aren't simple tales, and are worthy of debate and thought. For anyone like yourself, who has experienced the entire story, there may not be a right or wrong interpretation, only a personal one. The endings of both games are quite open ended, and while the game play is linear the characters' actions may be interpreted differently.


TLOU was a complex story, with an ambiguous ending. Joel's TLOU story begins with a heartbreaking prologue that makes his decision by the end almost inevitable, regardless of whatever likely consequences there will be. His love for Ellie is selfish in light of the prospect for a vaccine, but love is love - it's an irrational emotion. So it's a completely understandable course of action. The way TLOU2 depicts the act puts Joel in an impossible situation, and there's little option for a peaceful resolution. This is repeated again in TLOU2 when Ellie has to deal with Owen and Mel, and the results of both actions sustain Abby's hatred for first Joel, and then Ellie.





This is where individual interpretation plays its part again. I don't see TLOU undoing the first part, but rather building upon it by dealing with the psychological/emotional fallout. How would these characters go on with their lives with that event hanging over them?

Druckmann is credited as the writer for TLOU, and he's obviously deeply involved in the direction of TLOU2. He knows the characters best, and didn't want to tell a shallow story since the characters are deeper than that. Hence, as in life, people change. The ending of TLOU was a seismic emotional event for Joel. He couldn't bear to tell Ellie the truth, even though she might already suspect it. Not only is he living with the guilt of his action, but also the guilt of lying to Ellie. On top of this Ellie has grown more distant from him because of the lie.


As you quoted, Ellie said in TLOU, "it can't be for nothing." By the end of TLOU she's been told it was for nothing, and never could've been anything.



The seeds of TLOU2 were planted in that quote from Ellie. It was the cause for her inability to forgive Joel, and in turn her failure to forgive him weighs upon her even more greatly when it's too late to do so.

TLOU2 is the culmination of living for 4-5 years with the emotional fallout of TLOU. Just as TLOU didn't have a fairy tale ending, so TLOU2 continues onward down that darker path of moral ambiguity, with characters whose emotions are in such turmoil that they don't always act in what might be regarded as a rational manner. In a more regular video game the protagonists might take it in their stride and move on. Yet the TLOU series seeks to go deeper, and present characters who are victims of emotion, and in which successive life-changing events lead towards psychotic breaks, and for Ellie post traumatic stress disorder as well.


But, as before, these stories are a personal experience, and each person's journey isn't going to be identical or be received positively.

Agreed as well, video games especially feel so much personal that inevitably everyone will have different expiriences and emotions while playing them, espcially games like The Last of Us which are story driven above all else and explore human themes, I think the vast the majority of players got so invested in Joel and Ellie because in a way we were there with them on the road, we interacted with them and their companions, we suffered with them and just like their relationship we grew to love them and it's a relationship that the majority of people can easily insert themselves in.

Yes, Joels decision was selfish at its core but like you said I think a lot of people can understand it and insert themselves in his shoes because at the end of the game we loved Ellie just as much as he did, after 20 years of living in this broken world Joel had pretty much lost himself and any care he had for human life, unable to move on from Sarahs death and excusing all his nastiest actions with "we are survivors". I'm sure Joel had faced a lot of conflict and I sort of wish they had explored his past a bit further, especially since it's heavily implied Joel was a hunter and killed a lot of innocent people, he was by no means a saint, if Abby and her friends had been victims of Joels dirty deeds of dark past as a hunter I feel like I would've made for a more accepting of how that part of the revenge plays out, instead of retconning the fireflies and basically turning a random NPC at the end of the first game into the sole reason Joel is killed, not even the fact that he doomed humanity, which is debateable as I think we both agree a vaccine was never a certainty unlike what Part 2 forces on the narrative, just that he killed this one guy, it felt extremely weak to me. And then you have the scene with Mel and Owen going out in brutal fashion, the scene was amazingly acted, just like every other one really, but I couldn't help but feel manipulated at how it plays out, Ellie is clearly acting erratically but it seems she goes out of her way to have bad ***** happen, and Mel wearing a winter jacket that conceals her pregnancy, why? just for that shocking "reveal" moment? That ends just being the setup for Abby finding out Ellies hideout because she convinently dropped her map at the murder scene and show Abby is better than Ellie because she spares Dina, who is also pregnant? I think showing Ellie dealing with the fallout of this event would've been so much more impactful, we know she has PTSD about Joel and from torturing Nora to some extent which is silly to me when she has been murdering countless of people up until that moment in various brutal ways but after she tortures Nora which seems like she really just beat her to death, she is extremely traumatized? This again I feel is a problem with the structure of the story and the disconnect between the gameplay and the narrative, had we had more time with Ellie, had we seen her going trough the entire torture I feel like it would've been so much more impactful, especially as it could've drawn some heavy parallels between Ellie and the darker Joel we see interrogating the cannibals in the first game.

This is where individual interpretation plays its part again. I don't see TLOU undoing the first part, but rather building upon it by dealing with the psychological/emotional fallout. How would these characters go on with their lives with that event hanging over them?

I do agree that the only logical next step in their relationship was conflict, Joels decision at the end of the first game would inevitably cause that relationship to slowly detiorate, even if Ellie suspected or knew he was lying from the start or not and that in my opinion should've been the fallout of that event, not a new character showing up, killing Joel and esssentialy becomming the protagonist in what was meant to be Ellies own story, I feel this is why a lot of people hate the direction Druckmann and the creative team took, the first game, wether people agree or disagree was clearly a journey focused on Joel, it's only torwards the end that Ellie really steps up and is able to become a protagonist in that story, so logically we had hoped Part 2 would explore their relationship further and put us in the shoes of Ellie and go on her own journey, instead we got a few flashback scenes that barely explored this fallout and got the rug pulled from under us and were forced to play as a character that was betrayed by the narrative, Abby was doomed from the start because we barely know her, we have zero attachment to her and she kills the protagonist of the first game which the majority of players loved.

I think that is the problem, you say Druckmann didn't want to write a shallow story and that naturally he wanted to go deeper with these characters but he barely has any time to do so because he has to split the game in half to tell Ellies story and Abbys story and it ends up hurting both characters a LOT, and it is why the ending fails for me, in the end I understand why Ellie forgives Joel, as she is drowning Abby she realizes that killing her won't bring him back and it won't bring her any closure with his death because deep down she knows it's not his death she can't accept it's the fact that she never got to forgive him before he went, in a way all of her brutal acts of revenge proved that had the roles been reversed in the first game she would've done exactly what Joel did and she is finally able to understand his decision and forgive him, the thing is we don't have enough time to put Ellie in the position where this actually works, because again, and it's my opinion, the structure of the game is a mess and Ellies character is not given the proper ammount of time she deserves to reach this conclusion of her arc, much like Abbys story has almost no time to breathe and evolve in an organic matter.

On a final note I want to address something else, apart from her sparing Abby being her way of forgiving Joel, Druckmann has said that it's Ellie breaking the cycle of revenge, and that if she had killed Abby then Lev would come after her and the cycle would carry on for who knows how long, that's all fine and dandy.... if Ellie hadn't murdered countless of other people trying to get to Abby in the first place, the vast majority of which had no part in Joels murder and were really victims the game forces upon you as it thrusts you into shooting galleries where the only way forward is killing a few people or all of them. Logistically what is stopping any family memeber of any NPC Ellie kills in Part 2 to come after her in Part 3? If she even is in Part 3 that is, If Druckmann wants to fully commit to his dark narrative with the series then the only logical ending for Ellie is punishment for all the innocent lives she took in Part 2, but will he do that? Likely not.

EDIT: I must say tho that it's really fun discussing the story with people who share different point of views, it's great we can go back and forth and challenge each other in an intelligent way instead out outright dismissing eachother like most are doing on the internet, regardless of what we both or anybody else thinks this is a game that will certainly be discussed for years to come.

 

[Space Jockey]

All I'll say is 'Will their be figures from Last Of Us 2 because if so, I'll buy 'em'.

 

[Asta]

EDIT: I must say tho that it's really fun discussing the story with people who share different point of views, it's great we can go back and forth and challenge each other in an intelligent way instead out outright dismissing eachother like most are doing on the internet, regardless of what we both or anybody else thinks this is a game that will certainly be discussed for years to come.

Indeed.

I've written before that I consider TLOU and TLOU2 as films rather than games, and that I think they're more suited to the media of film.

Primarily there's a story that you cannot deviate from, therefore it rules out individual choice. If you're a player then you're essentially a passenger. From my perspective it's a compelling story, but as you wrote there are limitations due to the game structure. Or limitations resulting from having to make a game out of this story.

In order to complete the game Ellie has to kill those who get in her way, and Abby has to do likewise. As you wrote, there's a lot of casualties that will potentially continue the endless cycle of revenge. This is another consequence of the video game structure, unless the player were able to avoid all non-cut scene combat altogether. But where would the fun be in that? However, it's a lot easier to be a passive observer when Abby has to attack Ellie, than having to take control of her do so. It's grimly ironic that the first fight was in a theatre, a place where a person usually goes to watch rather than participate.

Just as Joel was no saint in TLOU, neither was Ellie by the end of TLOU2. Nor Abby, of course.

The way I rationalise the video game structure with the story as a film, is that the world no longer functions according the laws of 'civilisation' prior to the pandemic. It's a brutal grinder that chews people up if they dare to venture beyond the safe confines of their small societies. Tribes are automatically set against each other through fear, paranoia, or the desire to shape the world to their liking. I've used Conrad's Heart of Darkness as an example of the impossibility of relating personal experience (in the context of experiencing TLOU2 as opposed to reading somebody else's review of it), but it can relate to the story itself.

The 'Heart of Darkness' is that great, savage 'wilderness' far from the safety and light of 'civilisation'. When a person ventures into it they leave behind the laws and structures intended to keep people safe, both physically and mentally since the illusory light of 'civilisation' can shield the individual from the horror of reality.

Ellie had chances to stay in the 'light', but neither at Jackson nor the farm she could she retain an illusion of normality. She was constantly at the mercy of dark thoughts, the trauma of seeing Joel being killed over and over. So she heads out into the deadly wilderness in an attempt to put these demons to rest once and for all. I'm sure The Velveteen Rabbit reference plays into this. The stuffed rabbit wanted to become real and complete. As a toy he was ashamed he couldn't jump around with the real rabbits, and tried to hide that fact he didn't have working legs. Likewise Ellie feels incomplete on different levels: she'd failed to provide the vaccine; she'd failed to forgive Joel, and she was incomplete without Joel himself. The only way she can find meaning and resolve her issues is to leave the civilisation that could no longer maintain her illusion of sanity, and head into the world beyond to face up to the reality of her situation.

Kurtz went mad in Heart of Darkness. The postscript to the report he was commissioned to write by the International Society for the Suppression of Savage Customs read, "Exterminate all the brutes!"

Ellie also loses herself in the darkness and kills her way towards Abby. The latter had her own journey through darkness, though came to terms with it before Ellie. Both Ellie and Abby were stronger than Kurtz. They were both broken, but they did survive with the chance to rebuild. Like Marlow, the narrator of Heart of Darkness, their individual experiences will set them apart from those who are incapable of sharing them. That is, those who choose not to leave the relative safety of civilisation.

All I'll say is 'Will their be figures from Last Of Us 2 because if so, I'll buy 'em'.

Oh...and this too!

 

[Sidewinder]

All you hear about this game is it having an "agenda" and it's "woke" and for the SJW's. What exactly is the agenda meant to be? If people don't like how the story went, fair enough, but all this hate seems to stem more from this so called agenda.

It sounds a bit like people turning off of the MCU because the next phase is concentrating on other characters that are more diverse. So there's been 12 years of mainly male heroes, now things are changing and they're up in arms.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

 

[Uravgcollector]

All you hear about this game is it having an "agenda" and it's "woke" and for the SJW's. What exactly is the agenda meant to be? If people don't like how the story went, fair enough, but all this hate seems to stem more from this so called agenda.

It sounds a bit like people turning off of the MCU because the next phase is concentrating on other characters that are more diverse. So there's been 12 years of mainly male heroes, now things are changing and they're up in arms.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

I have NEVER seen anyone complain about this game and blamed it on some SJW agenda.

Well, I have not seen any actual proper criticism with this whole point added in.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[slikkerias]

All I'll say is 'Will their be figures from Last Of Us 2 because if so, I'll buy 'em'.

Ellie is already announced. But I really want an Abby to go up against her. Might not happen though...

 

[Sidewinder]

I have NEVER seen anyone complain about this game and blamed it on some SJW agenda.

Well, I have not seen any actual proper criticism with this whole point added in.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I've seen it in a lot of comments left by gamers on other platforms. But no discussion of what the agenda is lol

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

 

[R_R_X]

Indeed.

I've written before that I consider TLOU and TLOU2 as films rather than games, and that I think they're more suited to the media of film.

Primarily there's a story that you cannot deviate from, therefore it rules out individual choice. If you're a player then you're essentially a passenger. From my perspective it's a compelling story, but as you wrote there are limitations due to the game structure. Or limitations resulting from having to make a game out of this story.

In order to complete the game Ellie has to kill those who get in her way, and Abby has to do likewise. As you wrote, there's a lot of casualties that will potentially continue the endless cycle of revenge. This is another consequence of the video game structure, unless the player were able to avoid all non-cut scene combat altogether. But where would the fun be in that? However, it's a lot easier to be a passive observer when Abby has to attack Ellie, than having to take control of her do so. It's grimly ironic that the first fight was in a theatre, a place where a person usually goes to watch rather than participate.

Just as Joel was no saint in TLOU, neither was Ellie by the end of TLOU2. Nor Abby, of course.

The way I rationalise the video game structure with the story as a film, is that the world no longer functions according the laws of 'civilisation' prior to the pandemic. It's a brutal grinder that chews people up if they dare to venture beyond the safe confines of their small societies. Tribes are automatically set against each other through fear, paranoia, or the desire to shape the world to their liking. I've used Conrad's Heart of Darkness as an example of the impossibility of relating personal experience (in the context of experiencing TLOU2 as opposed to reading somebody else's review of it), but it can relate to the story itself.

The 'Heart of Darkness' is that great, savage 'wilderness' far from the safety and light of 'civilisation'. When a person ventures into it they leave behind the laws and structures intended to keep people safe, both physically and mentally since the illusory light of 'civilisation' can shield the individual from the horror of reality.

Ellie had chances to stay in the 'light', but neither at Jackson nor the farm she could she retain an illusion of normality. She was constantly at the mercy of dark thoughts, the trauma of seeing Joel being killed over and over. So she heads out into the deadly wilderness in an attempt to put these demons to rest once and for all. I'm sure The Velveteen Rabbit reference plays into this. The stuffed rabbit wanted to become real and complete. As a toy he was ashamed he couldn't jump around with the real rabbits, and tried to hide that fact he didn't have working legs. Likewise Ellie feels incomplete on different levels: she'd failed to provide the vaccine; she'd failed to forgive Joel, and she was incomplete without Joel himself. The only way she can find meaning and resolve her issues is to leave the civilisation that could no longer maintain her illusion of sanity, and head into the world beyond to face up to the reality of her situation.

Kurtz went mad in Heart of Darkness. The postscript to the report he was commissioned to write by the International Society for the Suppression of Savage Customs read, "Exterminate all the brutes!"

Ellie also loses herself in the darkness and kills her way towards Abby. The latter had her own journey through darkness, though came to terms with it before Ellie. Both Ellie and Abby were stronger than Kurtz. They were both broken, but they did survive with the chance to rebuild. Like Marlow, the narrator of Heart of Darkness, their individual experiences will set them apart from those who are incapable of sharing them. That is, those who choose not to leave the relative safety of civilisation.

I personally agree with Part 2, there is a huge disconnect between the gameplay and what the story is trying to convey, had it been a movie or an episodic format that didn't had to put you trough "arenas" full of humans to kill then the story would have flowed a lot better and some of the biggest atrocities Ellie commits would've been more impactful as I wasn't murdering my way trough countless NPCs to reach those moments.
Respectfully disagree with the first game tho haha, for me the journey of Joel and Ellie in the first game is something that hits a lot deeper if you actually play, as I said before, playing the game is like you're actually there with them and going trough their hardships, while a movie or show is more like a spectacle you sit trough and enjoy but for me nothing beats the level of immersion and interaction of a game.

And again I can see your point, you do have something going on with the 'Heart of Darkness' parallels and totally agree and understand what were the story beats they wanted to reach but in my opinion both Ellie and Abby didn't have enough time to get to them in a believable manner, because they have to split the game in two for both and it ends up hurting their character arcs, Abby being the biggest victim of all who needs to have this "Joel and Ellie" relationship built with Lev but it ultimately falls flat because of the structural and pacing isues. If Part 2 ends up being adapted to HBO like the first game is, then I am geniunely curious to see if they'll be able to expand the story a bit and fix these issues by giving more time and room for the characters to breathe and for the plot threads of the first to be explored in a deeper manner, in my opinion Joel and Ellies relationship was the heart of the title and it really felt almost non existent in Part 2, had there been more flashbacks with Joel, showing the natural progression of their relationship, before and after Ellie uncovers his lie then the ending when she reaches the forgiveness stage would've worked flawlessly, but there simply isn't all that much to go by, just a few flashbacks, Joel tells a sliver of the truth to Ellie and then nothing, we just have a really great scene showing they were about to rekindle their relationship the day before Joels murder but man I simply wish they had explored that more, but they obviously couldn't because as I've said before, the structure demands the second half of the game to be exclusively Abby and they actually had to cut a lot of content with Joel and Ellie so that they could do this.

All I'll say is 'Will their be figures from Last Of Us 2 because if so, I'll buy 'em'.

Master Team and CCToys are both working on 1/6 scale figures for Part 2, apparently there's someone working on 1/12 figures as well, so as far as Limtoys goes it's hard to say, would I love to work on more figures of Joel and Ellie? Absolutely, but it isn't my decision alone, I have been seeing an idea thrown around that I honestly would love for us to bring to life but there's the worry of that market being lost already.

All you hear about this game is it having an "agenda" and it's "woke" and for the SJW's. What exactly is the agenda meant to be? If people don't like how the story went, fair enough, but all this hate seems to stem more from this so called agenda.

It sounds a bit like people turning off of the MCU because the next phase is concentrating on other characters that are more diverse. So there's been 12 years of mainly male heroes, now things are changing and they're up in arms.

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I have written long posts about my main issues with the game and never once mentioned any agenda, not saying there are people who don't say otherwise, there obviously are and I would argue the majority of them haven't played the game because the biggest issues with it aren't agendas or the fact it has LGBT characters in it but completely unrelated things. Is there an actual agenda in the game tho? Yes, but there is one everywhere, every form of entertainment has politics in it to some degree, hell just look at the Metal Gear series, if the problem is about the diverse characters then I actually said they underutilized Lev and used his transsexuality as a plot device to get him and Abby to different places at different points of the story, I wish they had done something depper with him and Yara and their mother instead of just quickly discarding that arc like they did.

 

[Asta]

I have NEVER seen anyone complain about this game and blamed it on some SJW agenda.

Well, I have not seen any actual proper criticism with this whole point added in.

It's true that the 'thoughtful' and considered reviews I've seen don't use that agenda as a reason for their dislike.

Instead it appears all over the place in other formats, such as forums, Facebook, YouTube and so on. It seems to have become established based on assumptions made from the leaks, and they've stuck. I suspect many that deride the game based on those views have never, or will never experience the game for themselves.

Review ratings themselves are always a tricky subject, because you never know whether there's an agenda behind the score: those that just want to drag something down because they've decided to hate it before they're actually sure what it is; or those who over-rate in order to compensate for the low ratings!

However, as time has gone on I've seen the ratings gradually rise, and begin to extinguish the mass of 1/10s that came from people bombing it before they could conceivably have even finished it. Even if you only rated it on a technical level there's no way this game deserved a 1/10.

Ellie is already announced. But I really want an Abby to go up against her. Might not happen though...

With two 19 year-old TLOU2 Ellie figures in the works (MT and CC), it would be strange on the face of it that there wasn't a matching Abby, since they were two halves of the same coin as it were. Inextricably bound. It would be like having TLOU Ellie but no Joel.

Yet, taking into consideration those ratings and the vitriol surrounding TLOU2, it wouldn't be surprising if she were omitted.

 

[slikkerias]

It's true that the 'thoughtful' and considered reviews I've seen don't use that agenda as a reason for their dislike.

Instead it appears all over the place in other formats, such as forums, Facebook, YouTube and so on. It seems to have become established based on assumptions made from the leaks, and they've stuck. I suspect many that deride the game based on those views have never, or will never experience the game for themselves.

Review ratings themselves are always a tricky subject, because you never know whether there's an agenda behind the score: those that just want to drag something down because they've decided to hate it before they're actually sure what it is; or those who over-rate in order to compensate for the low ratings!

However, as time has gone on I've seen the ratings gradually rise, and begin to extinguish the mass of 1/10s that came from people bombing it before they could conceivably have even finished it. Even if you only rated it on a technical level there's no way this game deserved a 1/10.



With two 19 year-old TLOU2 Ellie figures in the works (MT and CC), it would be strange on the face of it that there wasn't a matching Abby, since they were two halves of the same coin as it were. Inextricably bound. It would be like having TLOU Ellie but no Joel.

Yet, taking into consideration those ratings and the vitriol surrounding TLOU2, it wouldn't be surprising if she were omitted.

Totally agree.
I?m afraid though, that it?s more plausible that we see a TLOU2 Joel than an Abby. Even if that?s total BS... after playing through the game I started to feel as much for Abby as for Ellie - genius game/story design if you ask me.

 

[R_R_X]

Totally agree.
I?m afraid though, that it?s more plausible that we see a TLOU2 Joel than an Abby. Even if that?s total BS... after playing through the game I started to feel as much for Abby as for Ellie - genius game/story design if you ask me.

It has more to with the local demand and what the general public wants, I've seen a lot of people asking for Joel and Ellie but only a few asking for Abby, and taking into account Abby on her own is already a more difficult character to produce than Joel and Ellie, given her unique physique, I don't see many, if any brands, taking a shot at making her.

 

[Asta]

I personally agree with Part 2, there is a huge disconnect between the gameplay and what the story is trying to convey, had it been a movie or an episodic format that didn't had to put you trough "arenas" full of humans to kill then the story would have flowed a lot better and some of the biggest atrocities Ellie commits would've been more impactful as I wasn't murdering my way trough countless NPCs to reach those moments.
Respectfully disagree with the first game tho haha, for me the journey of Joel and Ellie in the first game is something that hits a lot deeper if you actually play, as I said before, playing the game is like you're actually there with them and going trough their hardships, while a movie or show is more like a spectacle you sit trough and enjoy but for me nothing beats the level of immersion and interaction of a game.

And again I can see your point, you do have something going on with the 'Heart of Darkness' parallels and totally agree and understand what were the story beats they wanted to reach but in my opinion both Ellie and Abby didn't have enough time to get to them in a believable manner, because they have to split the game in two for both and it ends up hurting their character arcs, Abby being the biggest victim of all who needs to have this "Joel and Ellie" relationship built with Lev but it ultimately falls flat because of the structural and pacing isues. If Part 2 ends up being adapted to HBO like the first game is, then I am geniunely curious to see if they'll be able to expand the story a bit and fix these issues by giving more time and room for the characters to breathe and for the plot threads of the first to be explored in a deeper manner, in my opinion Joel and Ellies relationship was the heart of the title and it really felt almost non existent in Part 2, had there been more flashbacks with Joel, showing the natural progression of their relationship, before and after Ellie uncovers his lie then the ending when she reaches the forgiveness stage would've worked flawlessly, but there simply isn't all that much to go by, just a few flashbacks, Joel tells a sliver of the truth to Ellie and then nothing, we just have a really great scene showing they were about to rekindle their relationship the day before Joels murder but man I simply wish they had explored that more, but they obviously couldn't because as I've said before, the structure demands the second half of the game to be exclusively Abby and they actually had to cut a lot of content with Joel and Ellie so that they could do this.

I couldn't be sure about either of them, as I've only experienced them as 'films'. The longest 'cinematic play through' for TLOU I have is 6 hours, for TLOU2 it's 21 hours. With TLOU2 there were definite points where I thought, this must work better as a film rather than having to play through it. I extended that thought to TLOU based on the linear narrative and that so much of the game is already a movie in the form of cut scenes. I was invested in the characters even without controlling them, so I can fully accept your point that playing as them deepened the experience.


On mentioning the technical aspects of the latest game, I was watching a couple of videos yesterday highlighting the physics.






So much attention to detail that brings the world alive, such as warm blood melting snow; snow falling from trees; the contents of backpacks getting wet; water dripping from clothes; making footprints in the dust or brushing it away by crawling through it; all the various animations that set a character into their landscape, and so on. All this really adds to the 'cinematic' experience.

 

[Asta]

Totally agree.
I?m afraid though, that it?s more plausible that we see a TLOU2 Joel than an Abby. Even if that?s total BS... after playing through the game I started to feel as much for Abby as for Ellie - genius game/story design if you ask me.

It has more to with the local demand and what the general public wants, I've seen a lot of people asking for Joel and Ellie but only a few asking for Abby, and taking into account Abby on her own is already a more difficult character to produce than Joel and Ellie, given her unique physique, I don't see many, if any brands, taking a shot at making her.

Yes, there is a lot standing in the way of an Abby figure. Especially if she was represented with bare arms - for that we'd probably have to wait for Hot Toys to make a Gina Carano Cara Dune. A fully covered up Abby could be bulked up with a padding to fill out her arms and shoulders.

 

[R_R_X]

I couldn't be sure about either of them, as I've only experienced them as 'films'. The longest 'cinematic play through' for TLOU I have is 6 hours, for TLOU2 it's 21 hours. With TLOU2 there were definite points where I thought, this must work better as a film rather than having to play through it. I extended that thought to TLOU based on the linear narrative and that so much of the game is already a movie in the form of cut scenes. I was invested in the characters even without controlling them, so I can fully accept your point that playing as them deepened the experience.

Oh you need to do yourself a favor and try getting a PS4 bundled with The Last of Us if possible or find someone else willing to borrow you one, watching a 6 hour cinematic playtrough simply doesn't cut it, there's so much character development and world building in the gameplay, it's really a must play to anyone that wants to get the full expirience.

On mentioning the technical aspects of the latest game, I was watching a couple of videos yesterday highlighting the physics.
So much attention to detail that brings the world alive, such as warm blood melting snow; snow falling from trees; the contents of backpacks getting wet; water dripping from clothes; making footprints in the dust or brushing it away by crawling through it; all the various animations that set a character into their landscape, and so on. All this really adds to the 'cinematic' experience.

The game is a technical masterpiece, no one can deny that, regardless of differing opinions I think everyone is in agreement that the game is gorgeous and the animations, combat, ai, the enviroments, the sound design, the character models, etc, all are second to none.

Yes, there is a lot standing in the way of an Abby figure. Especially if she was represented with bare arms - for that we'd probably have to wait for Hot Toys to make a Gina Carano Cara Dune. A fully covered up Abby could be bulked up with a padding to fill out her arms and shoulders.

Exactly, for a figure of her to be made it would either have to be a fully clothed one or it would have to be a head sculpt/clothing set so people can source the body they like, or customize one, the thing is there aren't any muscular female out there, at least not like Abby, so you would need a male body but then it would have the wrong porportions, which is why I don't see anyone making her, not only because she hasn't been very well recieved as a whole but because to make something accurate to the game, a manufacturer would need to produce a completely new body for her.

 

[Asta]

Oh you need to do yourself a favor and try getting a PS4 bundled with The Last of Us if possible or find someone else willing to borrow you one, watching a 6 hour cinematic playtrough simply doesn't cut it, there's so much character development and world building in the gameplay, it's really a must play to anyone that wants to get the full expirience.

I'm not much into gaming. Not enough to justify a machine that would barely get any use.

I've done the next best thing and downloaded MKIceAndFire's 11 1/2 hour TLOU Remastered Gameplay Walkthrough. So that's almost twice as much time with Ellie and Joel.

As with his 21 hour TLOU2 it's the game play with all the cut scenes, and no commentary.

 

[Asta]

https://bbs.bbicn.com/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=363944&extra=page=1

 

[R_R_X]

https://bbs.bbicn.com/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=363944&extra=page=1

Looks good upon first glance but as you analyze these further you keep finding issues.

Firstly it seems they haven't changed the weapons from their first release, which were incorrect to begin with, actually it seems like most of the weapons and accessories are recycled from their first release which is a shame considering the level of detail and customization the weapons have in Part 2, the guitar, Joels coffee mug, the notebook and Ellies holster are all really nice additions.

The tailoring isn't all that accurate on both, specifically Joels jacket and Ellies hoodie, it comes as no surprise given the game came out 2 weeks ago, and these prototypes must've been produced and photographed in those 2 weeks, hoepfully they can improve these during mass production.

The sculpts are alright, Ellies normal sculpt is probably the strongest, her angry sculpt looks a bit off, Joels sculpt is just a recycled sculpt from thir first release which seems to have been made thinner and have different hair and added wrinkles, I don't think it captures the structure of his face in Part 2 tho. The clicker head sculpt looks really good but the figure is extremely lazy and quite frankly not worth it, it's just a KO body with more bloddy and torn clothes of Ellie on it, they should've just released it as a seperate sculpt.

Overall it is a solid announcement but I can't help but feel they needed more time to come up with better prototypes, I think they wanted to get these out while the game is still hot as there has been a lot of controversy sorrounding it and furthermore they probably want to one up Master Team before they announce anything else, as we know they ar reworking their Part 2 Ellie as well, will definitely be interesting to see what both brands can do.

EDIT: What are your thoughts Asta?