Collectible figures and censorship??

[dleebatman1]

In advance I apologize for the following lengthy rant, but I just wanted to get my thoughts in writing:

I have my own opinion on this matter but I wanted to get other collectors' perspectives. Where do you draw the line on historical/military collecting and exploitation?

For example, as far as I know, American toy companies refuse to make figures with any sort of swastika insignia or other offensive symbols, so I buy Dragon figures made in Hong Kong for my German soldiers.

I also have a Nazi German flag in my display, but I also have an equally sized British flag as well as several smaller flags including the United States, Mexico, and Israel (I'm a stickler for irony).

Which brings me to my next point, do you think it is in good taste to keep Nazi, terrorist, Viet Cong, etc. figures up on display if you have friends that might be offended by them. (i.e. Jewish, South Vietnamese-American, African-American)

One of my relatives has a rebel flag in their room but removes it when their African-American friends visit. Is that hypocrisy or just good manners?

Personally, I don't believe in sacrificing historical accuracy in the name of self-censorship or sensitivity and am perfectly fine with having my German figures on display in my room since I have others to counterbalance it.

Also, it is debatable if other historical powers were/are just as evil as Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan. The British Empire and United States committed their fair share of atrocities (imperialism, Native American genocide, slave trade, segregation, etc.) as did the Soviet Union (people seem to have alot less of an issue with wearing the hammer and sickle in public).

Finally, do any of you think it is wrong to collect figures that are supposed to be pure exploitation (i.e. busty babes, comic book nazis like Hellboy's Kroenen, busty babes in nazi clothes, etc.) I don't have any such figures yet, but wouldn't mind buying some in the future.

Any thoughts?

 

[pixletwin]

I don't have any problem with historical figures at all.

 

[BadMoon]

I think there is an old thread about this.

That said, I personally wouldn't buy anything with Nazi symbols or anything. However, I wouldn't look down on anyone who collects that stuff either.

 

[karamazov80]

I think it is up to the individual to decide what is appropriate to him or herself. I personally don't have any Nazis, but have considered getting one or two for Cap or Indy to stomp. I don't think I would get a Hitler, though, just because I'm not sure I would feel comfortable about it on the shelf (I didn't pick up an Alex DeLarge figure for a similar reason, even though he's obviously a fictional character). But if you're a history buff and want Hitler on a display with Stalin, FDR, Churchill, Patton, or whatever, then that's your prerogative.

When folks are too overly obsessed with the Nazi stuff it can sometimes make me feel a little uncomfortable, just because I don't really know what their real motivation for owning/displaying that stuff is. But if it is isn't an ideologically or hate-based interest, then I don't personally have any problem with it. Not that this forum is the place for it, but no, there really isn't much debate about whether or not U.S. offenses historically could be comparable to those of Nazi Germany in my mind. Stalin's Soviet Union, maybe. I would not lump Imperial Japan into the same category, just because they were an ally of Nazi Germany.

Removing something at the risk of offending someone can just be good manners in my opinion. But if your friend cares enough about the rebel flag to have it on his wall most of the time, and if he has genuine African American friends, it seems like he could be open about it and have a dialog. But I don't know anything about that specific situation obviously.

I do think the Asian cartoon characters in lingerie or S&M are creepy though, and some that look like younger girls are extremely creepy.

Not sure why your Israeli flag is supposed to be ironic, though?

 

[The Mike]

One of my relatives has a rebel flag in their room but removes it when their African-American friends visit. Is that hypocrisy or just good manners?

Somewhere in between. It's all depends on context. My friends know I'm not a Nazi so when they see Nazi Kroenen or the eventual Red Skull, they know it's simply supporting a film I liked. I don't think they'd flinch at a Hitler figure if I had one. The thing if you know someone is amazingly sensitive about a subject, removing it to avoid an issue is more along where I see your relative going.

It's only hypocrisy if they believe it but don't want to be called on it which I don't think is the case here.

 

[SnakeDoctor]

I don't have any problem with it. History is what it is ... and every hero needs a villain.

It isn't arguable that the British Empire or the United States are just as evil as the Nazis. Segregation is not comparable to the Holocaust. If nothing else, the survival rate for victims is a lot higher among those that suffered American injustices instead that of the Nazis.

SnakeDoc

 

[screamingmetal]

I don't have any problem with it. History is what it is ... and every hero needs a villain.

It isn't arguable that the British Empire or the United States are just as evil as the Nazis. Segregation is not comparable to the Holocaust. If nothing else, the survival rate for victims is a lot higher among those that suffered American injustices instead that of the Nazis.

SnakeDoc

It's not about the numbers, it's just about the injustices.
Eugenics also had a presence in the US before the Nazis started doing the same.

 

[DeltaForceChung]

First off . . . I'm Asian.

Back in the day when I used to actively collect 1:6 WW II figures, the majority of the figures in my collection are German figures by DML/Dragon (DUH!) along with a variety of cyber-hobby.com "exclusives". I collected them based on my enjoyment of the hobby & the historical theme, but not based any type of political belief or ideology. BTW, a lot of talented customizers are Asian and back in the day the majority of their works were WW II German themed.

Nowadays, it's either pop culture or anything/everything being fought over between HOT TOYS & ENTERBAY.

I remember when 21STCT produced WW II figures & outfits . . . specifically German ones. They had to change the Nazi swastika to an "X" for obvious reasons. They also produced the "infamous" (back at the time) Terrorist/Villain figure that apparently was ready for release/sale around the time the Columbine tragedy occurred. At the time, the figure was apparently pulled from retail release for obvious reasons and supposedly was a sought after collector's item. Nowadays, it's not a sought after collector's item, but a decent mass produced 1:6 figure of a generic terrorist/villain. You can find ranging from cheap to inane prices on eBay.

The most controversial figure in my collection is Reinhard Heydrich. It either made by ITPT (In The Past Toys) or 3R or some other small company that produced a few top tier German/Nazi leadership figures. I purchased him some years back during a FX show in Orlando from a dealer for a very worthwhile price at the time. The figure came fully loaded with medals, outfits, etc. I saw it as a historical piece; morever, I knew of the historical real life person it was based on. I purchased it to compliment my existing collection of WW II German figures. I still have it, but it's boxed away somewhere in my collection stash.

Yes. There have been "controversial" figures in our hobby ranging from Adolf Hitler to Osama Bin Laden and other real life historical figures. The quality ranged from superb to utter crap/garbage.

I don't believe in censorship, but I do believe in the freedom & right to choose what I want to & will buy even though others may not share the same 1:6 interests/tastes that I do . . . as well as having common sense . . . however fleeting that may be nowadays.

The most controversial figure nowadays in my collection is probably a 1:6 female figure dressed up in S&M attire whipping a 1:6 male or female figure in a bondage gimp outfit.

Heck . . . I recollect there was a 1:6 private forum where collectors could display all the WW II German/Nazi figures with gay themes at one-time. I believed it was an inside joke at the time. Some off the wall/twisted humor making fun of all the 1:6 "Nazi" nitpickers or something like that.

 

[sarakawa]

It's all about context...collectibles figures and statues are just fun to look at. I assume you collect nazi soldiers because they are cool FIGURES and not because you are racist and embrace nazi ideology. If you're friends know you well, it shouldn't be a problem. That being said, people interpret things differently and you just have to be aware of who you show these to. I also wouldn't have stuff remotely inappropriate or offensive if you have younger children in the house. So this applies to both historically subjective material and sexually overt material.

 

[Elendil]

I don't have a problem with people collecting for historical accuracy. If a friend is honestly bothered by it though, I would be absolutely fine with moving them when they come over. After all, I am their "friend" right, not an ass!

 

[Kuzeh]

I don't have an issue with it...
As long as it's not glorifying atrocities...
From a historical point of view, I've seen some really cool displays and figures.
My only "controversial" figures are Kroenen, Che Guevara and Sub Comandante Marcos.
I have them proudly displayed, the first one due next to Hellboy as a movie I absolutely love and needs a bad guy.
The latter two as symbols of fighting for justice against certain systems and for the people, but not everyone likes them.

IMO, as long as you don't have a twisted mind with an intention of bringing harm to others, you're good... I like some elements of exploitation films/genre, but don't take it to an extreme. I say as long as you don't loose grasp of what's real and or/bad, and what's fantasy/bad/good, it's OK.

For example, I don't like Clockwork Orange due to the harsh uncomfortable topic, but I understand it's a provoking film with amazing qualities. I wouldn't glorify some of the characters there, but that's just me...

 

[Darth Cruel]

Don't get me started.

 

[Adrosi]

I collect to get away from reality. The last thing I want is a reminder/symbol of an atrocity. If it's too close to the real thing I don't want to look at it. It's gotta have some sort of WTF factor.

There are several genes/licenses of collectibles I wont entertain the idea of collecting simply cause the vibes are off for me.

But it all boils down to who it is who is spending the money.

 

[SnakeDoctor]

It's not about the numbers, it's just about the injustices.
Eugenics also had a presence in the US before the Nazis started doing the same.

There are degrees of injustice. "Eugenics" having "a presence" is one thing ... the wholesale extermination of millions of people via ovens in concentration camps is quite another. I do not understand the need of some to equate the United States with the worst regimes in the history of the world -- apparently up to, and including, the Nazis. Completely ridiculous. There is no comparison.

SnakeDoc

 

[Blackthornone]

Firstly, if you are going to make a figure or a statue, it should appear exactly as it did originally, with all insignias, otherwise, it isn't really the same thing. Either make the Nazi with the swastika or don't make it. If the swastika is so offensive that you wouldn't want it in your home, then figures or statues of the same soldiers don't belong in your home, either. It's just hypocritical to have a Nazi character without the swastika. To me, the fact that Sideshow made the German Paratrooper without the swastika is just nonsense.

As far as having offensive flags on display, it depends upon how prominent they are compared to the space in your home. If it is a small flag as part of a battle diorama, fine. Leave it on display. If, on the other hand, it is a Confederate flag or a Nazi flag above your mantle, or in your dining room, full size, then I question whether you really CAN have Jewish or black friends at all.

While a Confederate flag would not be as offensive as a life sized bust of the Grand Dragon in your living room to your black guests, I have to wonder why you would own one. I think if you are going to have a Confederate flag on display, you might as well have a diorama of black people picking cotton in the fields.


Why someone would even have a confederate flag on display if not a part of a greater Civil War display is something that suggests to me that they like the Confederate South .

 

[TripleCP]

One thing that shouldn't be overlooked is the fact that the swastika is a banned symbol in Germany and other countries. This comes up periodically with regard to war games, flight sims, etc. in which the swastika is inaccurately replaced with an X or a cross. Simply put, anything sporting the swastika would be illegal to sell in Germany and elsewhere.

 

[duck of death]

It's not that American toy companies (if we're talking about Hasbro and 21st Century Toys) refused to make figures with swastikas, it's that no brick and mortar retailers would have carried them if they did.

Personally, I think there is a world of difference between displaying a Nazi Kroenen or Red Skull or some other obviously fantastical representation of Nazism and, for example, having a huge display of several dozen SS men in dress uniforms with all their flags and gear saluting Hitler up on a podium. Which is not a made up example, I've seen collections like that.

I think something like that is disturbing on two levels: one, that someone thinks that is an appropriate thing to keep on display (and frankly, I don't buy the "but it's history" argument with a display which I don't think can be read as anything other than a glorification of Nazi symbols especially in the context of a collection that is entirely Nazi Germany based) and two, that every item in the display was right out of a box. To have a huge display of pomp and Nazi circumstance you just need to purchase ITPT and 3R products and have room to set them up. Any yet, there is no figure you can buy off the shelf that shows the results of that pomp and circumstance. You can buy a death camp guard (or even commandant with that Ralph Fiennes figure that just came out), but a death camp victim --where are they? Why is a 1/6 Reinhard Heydrich or Heinrich Himmler, architects of the Holocaust, immaculate in their tailored uniforms completely acceptable to be mass produced and sold to a world-wide audience (minus places where any Nazi type stuff is banned by the government, which is not a reflection of what people would have in their collections if they could) but a 1/6 Anne Frank or her sister Margot in Bergen-Belsen unspeakably distasteful? What makes the one ok and the other not?

 

[Blackthornone]

One thing that shouldn't be overlooked is the fact that the swastika is a banned symbol in Germany and other countries. This comes up periodically with regard to war games, flight sims, etc. in which the swastika is inaccurately replaced with an X or a cross. Simply put, anything sporting the swastika would be illegal to sell in Germany and elsewhere.

As I see it, the purpose of that is to try and forget about the Nazis. A German WW2 Soldier fights for the Nazis, period. You wouldn't need a swastika on a statue of Hitler to know what he is about. It is important to point out the fact that the swastika existed 5,000 years before the Nazis used it. The swastika therefore, is not really a Nazi symbol. It is a symbol that the Nazis borrowed. https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007453
The question of whether or not to include the swastika is really about whether to remember the Nazis, and so is really about whether to make a WW2 German soldier or Military leader at all.

 

[TripleCP]

Another aspect is that West Germany permitted veterans to wear their uniforms and decorations provided that the swastika or any overtly Nazi symbols such as the SS runes were removed (or replaced with denazified versions). The same principle applied to toys, model kits, etc., because West Germany did indeed want to commemorate the German Army (especially with regard to the war with the Soviets). The idea of portraying WWII German soldiers as good soldiers serving an evil regime and separating them from the Nazi regime in every way possible has a long history. The US by and large encouraged this, too, as we wanted a strong militarized West Germany during the Cold War, not a disarmed pacifist one.

(Since unification, however, German historians have been exposing the myth of "evil regime/virtuous army" and exposing the degree of the German Army's complicity (at all levels of command) in carrying out "Nazi" war crimes and crimes against humanity, but that's another topic...)

 

[Gary23]

It would not bother me if I saw a random Nazi in someone’s collection, or a Nazi squad if balanced by Allies. At the end of the day, you could not have heroes if you didn’t have villains (which they were/are).