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[isculpt]

That is y'all opinion, just that. He's crap to you.

LOL you got it wrong again! Or was that on purpose?

 

[brucecamblzchin]

Alot of people forget that, Claremont X-men anyone?

Byrne/Claremont X-men issues are ****ing god-like.

 

[Ish]

LOL you got it wrong again! Or was that on purpose?

Uh... Yeah

 

[Kain's Ancient Blade]

Jim Lee is like any mainstream star we have today, he sells well, he's very popular to the masses who don't really look far enough into his stuff to see his weaknesses and he goes over well with the "kids".
But at the end of the day he has never been responsible for a truly definitive representation of any character.
His awful redesigns for the new 52 show Lee show him for he is, a good 90s style draftsman who has no real creative verve.
Don't get me wrong I like Jim's work for what it is, he was the most talented of the 90s Image superstar artists (although I'd argue that when Silvestri was doing Wolverine he was even better at that 90s style and brought more edge to it than Lee could).
But regardless, as others have said to be talking about Lee in a Superman PF thread ahead of the likes of John Byrne is just silly.

And to any who say that old comics, in both writing and art, can only compare to Todays output if we look at them with nostalgia...what are the benchmarks in mainstream superhero comics. TDKR, Watchmen, Alan Moore's Swamp Thing, Year One, Man of Steel, Daredevil Born Again, they're all at least 20 years old, hell even Jim Lee's best stuff was decades ago.

 

[nash]

byrnes story telling might be better but his art is disgusting.

 

[Ish]

I won't say its disgusting, but the technniques and styles evolve, twenty years from now there will be people saying things like this, we need to keep things relative, artist are relative to their time, oviously the artist of the past influence the artis of today and so on.

 

[karamazov80]

Byrne/Claremont X-men issues are ****ing god-like.

Agreed. Wolfman/Perez's New Teen Titans also belongs on that list.

 

[isculpt]

byrnes story telling might be better but his art is disgusting.

I honestly prefer his artwork to most people's artwork today. I feel some artist have totally lost the value of draftsmanship.

 

[isculpt]

I won't say its disgusting, but the technniques and styles evolve, twenty years from now there will be people saying things like this, we need to keep things relative, artist are relative to their time, oviously the artist of the past influence the artis of today and so on.

Yes and No. Great art is more than just style though. Jack Kirby is the King of Comics, and his style is drastically different than Jim Lee's. But Jack Kirby is hailed as the most visionary comic artist ever.

 

[Josh-A-Tron]

Yes and No. Great art is more than just style though. Jack Kirby is the King of Comics, and his style is drastically different than Jim Lee's. But Jack Kirby is hailed as the most visionary comic artist ever.

It's because Jack used perspective, forshortening, valued shading, line weight and Dynamic figure drawing to give comics a more dimensional look. If you look at most comics before Kirby (with a few exceptions of course) they were decent cartooning but nothing as dynamic and striking as Kirby's art. Very few artists put all those into a combination for comics at the time. Also his storytelling was great, you barely needed the words to figure out what was happening.

He changed how comics were done.

 

[Spidey976]

Yes and No. Great art is more than just style though. Jack Kirby is the King of Comics, and his style is drastically different than Jim Lee's. But Jack Kirby is hailed as the most visionary comic artist ever.

As an amateur artist myself, and a self Jim Lee Fanboy, you are off here. Sorry, but it is a fact that Lee is inspiring the next generation of comic book artist the SAME way that Kirby inspired the entire crop that came up through the business during the 80s and 90s. Also, right now Lee has more creative control than Kirby ever did. He is a basically the reworking DC along with Johns. If they are successful then he will go down as a TRUE legend with the likes of Kirby and Buscemia.

Also, I completely disagree with the statement that Lees's work on Justice League has been awful. Yeah it may not be as good as his Hush and ASBAR work, but it is still better then most artists out there.

Of course that is all just my oppinion which doesn't make me right. Just informed with my own skill set behind me, and yes biases.

 

[Josh-A-Tron]

As an amateur artist myself, and a self Jim Lee Fanboy, you are off here. Sorry, but it is a fact that Lee is inspiring the next generation of comic book artist the SAME way that Kirby inspired the entire crop that came up through the business during the 80s and 90s. Also, right now Lee has more creative control than Kirby ever did. He is a basically the reworking DC along with Johns. If they are successful then he will go down as a TRUE legend with the likes of Kirby and Buscemia.

Also, I completely disagree with the statement that Lees's work on Justice League has been awful. Yeah it may not be as good as his Hush and ASBAR work, but it is still better then most artists out there.

Of course that is all just my oppinion which doesn't make me right. Just informed with my own skill set behind me, and yes biases.

From one artist to another, I respect your opinion but have to disagree.

Granted Lee has been inspiring comic artists since the late 80's, then again so have Bolland, Wrightson, John Romita Jr., John Byrne, etc.etc.etc.

And yes he has more creative control over the DCU, but that's because of he does have a good business sense of the industry.

However you're wrong about Kirby having control of the comics he did. There were times, actually more often than not as we've found out, that Stan Lee would tell Kirby to draw all the pages to a book and he would fill in the dialogue after. He controlled entire storylines.

This is the Reason a lot of people have said that while Stan lee takes the credit for the Marvel U., it was Kirby who directed a lot of the early stuff.

Again it comes down to Kirby changing the industry and how things were done, and Lee who has inspired countless artists to follow their dreams and become comic artists. It's fine to like Lee, his style, his business sense. He's a good artist who has done amazingly well in a rough industry.

But I refuse to count him as "visionary".

 

[shanco9]

I won't say its disgusting, but the technniques and styles evolve, twenty years from now there will be people saying things like this, we need to keep things relative, artist are relative to their time, oviously the artist of the past influence the artis of today and so on.

Twenty Years from now people will say, Jim Lee should have learned proper anatomy and how not to draw the same face over and over again.

 

[Spidey976]

You know what, all good points, but in 20 or 30 years I think peoe will look at Lee and say similar things to what we say about Kirby now. However, we will have to wait and see. See you in 25??? ;-)

From one artist to another, I respect your opinion but have to disagree.

Granted Lee has been inspiring comic artists since the late 80's, then again so have Bolland, Wrightson, John Romita Jr., John Byrne, etc.etc.etc.

And yes he has more creative control over the DCU, but that's because of he does have a good business sense of the industry.

However you're wrong about Kirby having control of the comics he did. There were times, actually more often than not as we've found out, that Stan Lee would tell Kirby to draw all the pages to a book and he would fill in the dialogue after. He controlled entire storylines.

This is the Reason a lot of people have said that while Stan lee takes the credit for the Marvel U., it was Kirby who directed a lot of the early stuff.

Again it comes down to Kirby changing the industry and how things were done, and Lee who has inspired countless artists to follow their dreams and become comic artists. It's fine to like Lee, his style, his business sense. He's a good artist who has done amazingly well in a rough industry.

But I refuse to count him as "visionary".

 

[shanco9]

Comparing Jim Lee to Jack Kirby, oh dear.
As other wise souls here have already said, Jack Kirby basically helped created american superhero comics as they are today. He was so far ahead of his peers in every aspect of superhero comic art and storytelling, comparing that to over seeing a horrible redesign of existing characters and a reboot that will no doubt be rebooted in a year or two.
Jack set the framework that every artist since has followed in some shape of form.
Jim lee has never even been the best penciller/ draftsman(let alone storyteller) in any era in which he has worked and right now there are a huge number of guys who can do what he does a lot better and a lot more who can do things that he will never be able to do.

PS: As for Jim Lee a "Visionary", does no one remember the travesty that was Heroes Reborn!

 

[Sweet Rabbit]

Yak yak yak....there's a whole subsection for that conversation

 

[JBElliott]

Jim Lee might be a great artist, but he's an awful costume designer.

 

[Spidey976]

Comparing Jim Lee to Jack Kirby, oh dear.
As other wise souls here have already said, Jack Kirby basically helped created american superhero comics as they are today. He was so far ahead of his peers in every aspect of superhero comic art and storytelling, comparing that to over seeing a horrible redesign of existing characters and a reboot that will no doubt be rebooted in a year or two.
Jack set the framework that every artist since has followed in some shape of form.
Jim lee has never even been the best penciller/ draftsman(let alone storyteller) in any era in which he has worked and right now there are a huge number of guys who can do what he does a lot better and a lot more who can do things that he will never be able to do.

PS: As for Jim Lee a "Visionary", does no one remember the travesty that was Heroes Reborn!

Again I respectfully disagree, but then again you are entitled. As for Heroes Reborn it is safe to say that not every project Kirby worked on was pure GOLD. It is called perspective ...lol.

 

[isculpt]

As an amateur artist myself, and a self Jim Lee Fanboy, you are off here. Sorry, but it is a fact that Lee is inspiring the next generation of comic book artist the SAME way that Kirby inspired the entire crop that came up through the business during the 80s and 90s. Also, right now Lee has more creative control than Kirby ever did. He is a basically the reworking DC along with Johns. If they are successful then he will go down as a TRUE legend with the likes of Kirby and Buscemia.

Also, I completely disagree with the statement that Lees's work on Justice League has been awful. Yeah it may not be as good as his Hush and ASBAR work, but it is still better then most artists out there.

Of course that is all just my oppinion which doesn't make me right. Just informed with my own skill set behind me, and yes biases.

Lol as an aspiring comic artist as well, I can tell you that there are more sources of inspiration than just Jim Lee. BUT my point isn't that Jim Lee isn't great, of course he is. Just that great art is more than mere style. Jim Lee will go down as a legend but King is King.

Jim Lee's technical skill and business savvy ways are renowned and have gotten him very far in the industry. And some of his projects have significant worth and are milestones (X-men), but he's far from visionary from a design/conceptual point of view.

 

[shanco9]

Again I respectfully disagree, but then again you are entitled. As for Heroes Reborn it is safe to say that not every project Kirby worked on was pure GOLD. It is called perspective ...lol.

Not to get into a heated argument but what do you disagree with, Kirby's importance in comic book art? that his fingerprint on the medium far eclipses Jim's?

No, not all Kirby worked on was gold, but the majority was and never as bad as Heroes reborn, which by anyone's standard was total tosh.

Again Jimbo's current work with DC shows his limits, his poor design brain and the fact that he, like many of his 90s Image colleges(Liefeld I'm looking at you) aped other artist in their formative years instead of learning the basics, like proper anatomy.
As I said before I appreciated Jim for what he is, and he's a gent in person too, but even you must concede he's a better business man than he is an artist.