Does altruism exist or is it just a word?

[Maglor]

Reading through this thread, I one of the few that actually understands what Devilof76 is saying and yet NAM has to pick on 'poor Maggie.'

I know D is not going to change his world view. That is not my goal. I am refining my own world view. In so doing I am sometimes playing devil's advocate. And I ask questions from perspectives that are not necessarily my own.

If NAM continues to imply there is some kind of hilarity to that, and that I am somehow being taken advantage of, I'm out.

 

[hoodonit00]

This country is ____ed.

I don't follow?. You seem to be the only one taking the definitions the way you are. Could there be a possibility that you are the one taking the definitions wrong?

 

[Maglor]

If you let the bear get your niece you would be selfish because you care more about yourself than your niece. It's very evident that your niece who you love very much is very important to you. So in that circumstance you would do what most of us would do. Sacrifice yourself so your niece could live, which would not only be a selfless act but an altruist one as well.

If your desire for your niece to live is stronger than your own desire to live, and the thought of living on with the knowledge that you could have saved the most precious thing in the world to you is worse than the thought of death, than letting her die would be hurting the self - literally selfless.

In that case, dying in her place would be the selfish thing to do. Because it is in the best interests of the self.

Make sense?

 

[Maglor]

I don't follow?. You seem to be the only one taking the definitions the way you are. Could there be a possibility that you are the one taking the definitions wrong?

To be clear, I'm not sure I agree with Devil's definitions, but I do understand them... I think.

 

[devilof76]

I don't follow?. You seem to be the only one taking the definitions the way you are. Could there be a possibility that you are the one taking the definitions wrong?

No.

It is not selfless to act in the interest of your values. It is selfless to act against them. Irrationality as radical as that, embraced by an entire culture, will result in the annihilation of their values.

If most Americans accept these definitions, then American values are doomed.

If NAM continues to imply there is some kind of hilarity to that, and that I am somehow being taken advantage of, I'm out.

I'm not taking advantage of you, but I am doing my level best to convince you and anyone else reading this that the world is what it is, and it is not a place where selflessness is a virtue.

Nam has to laugh at you to reinforce his conviction that he was being suckered somehow. I realize what I'm saying sounds a lot like evil incarnate soliciting temptation, but I'll be damned if I will ever abide the notion that there is anything evil about being selfish.

 

[devilof76]

Make sense?

Perfect sense.

 

[hoodonit00]

If your desire for your niece to live is stronger than your own desire to live, and the thought of living on with the knowledge that you could have saved the most precious thing in the world to you is worse than the thought of death, than letting her die would be hurting the self - literally selfless.

In that case, dying in her place would be the selfish thing to do. Because it is in the best interests of the self.

Make sense?

I read your post and really tried to get what you're saying. In the end, no it doesn't make sense to me. This is in no way an attack on you. I always like your post. I just think you and devil are making this much to hard.

 

[devilof76]

It wouldn't be so hard if so many people didn't believe that giving up what you love is selfish.

 

[thenammagazine]

Reading through this thread, I one of the few that actually understands what Devilof76 is saying and yet NAM has to pick on 'poor Maggie.'

I know D is not going to change his world view. That is not my goal. I am refining my own world view. In so doing I am sometimes playing devil's advocate. And I ask questions from perspectives that are not necessarily my own.

If NAM continues to imply there is some kind of hilarity to that, and that I am somehow being taken advantage of, I'm out.

 

[Devil_666]

Sorry to hear about a bear eating your niece devilof76. Sucks.

 

[devilof76]

Nam's fault.

 

[ChunkyZergling]

ooo. What philosophical question will I bring up for my next post? Damn, 24 pages I think for this, not like it matters. I'd probably be following the arguments and discussions more but I'm at my new place and all I got is my damn iPhone.

Tell me if this act was an act of altruism. Cause I don't know bub. There is 92 year old man who has Alzheimer's who comes in by himself for lunch at a restaurant I use waiter at. He was always my customer. I visited the restaurant the other day and saw him. I read old people don't eat as much as they should often because they eat alone and eating can be very social. Anyway he's lonely too. So I sat and talked with him for 20, 30 minutes just to make him feel better and hope he would eat more. Any selfishness in that? Really idk. I asked someone I respect and they said I did it to make myself feel good about myself, no matter how little it was. But they said it did not detract from it being a very nice thing to do.

 

[devilof76]

Generosity and altruism aren't the same thing. There's no reason why you shouldn't enjoy helping a person out. Altruism is the idea that you have a duty to do it, and that your motivation should not be any kind of benefit to yourself. If you hated the idea of talking to the guy, and did it anyway, then it would be altruistic. If it would have caused you to lose out on something that was extremely important to you (more important to you than helping the old man), and you did it anyway, then it would be even more altruistic.

 

[Maglor]

Generosity and altruism are the same thing.

Might wanna edit that to reduce the confusion in an already confusing conversation.

 

[devilof76]

They are not the same thing whatsoever.

Go read Auguste Compte before you say something like that again.

 

[Maglor]

They are not the same thing whatsoever.

I didn't say they were. I'm trying to help you.


Go read your post again. You said they are the same thing.

 

[devilof76]

Thanks.

 

[Maglor]

 

[devilof76]

I had originally said "I don't think they are the same thing..." Then I realized I sounded like I wasn't sure. So I removed "I don't think" without changing "are" to "aren't".

I'm glad someone in here knows what the hell I'm talking about.

 

[ChunkyZergling]

Generosity and altruism aren't the same thing. There's no reason why you shouldn't enjoy helping a person out. Altruism is the idea that you have a duty to do it, and that your motivation should not be any kind of benefit to yourself. If you hated the idea of talking to the guy, and did it anyway, then it would be altruistic. If it would have caused you to lose out on something that was extremely important to you (more important to you than helping the old man), and you did it anyway, then it would be even more altruistic.

I actually listen to the guy a lot. And no it really is not fun to talk with him. He's pretty freakin out of it and basically we can't have a conversation. I would rather spend my time in my car listening to music and leaving the restaurant to do something fun and/or OCD like checking this thread. So I guess I am altruistic. Horay me!