Dragon Toy - The Dark Ruler 1/6 Scale

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As a youth, when I first saw that they’d intended to put Sauron in the final battle scene, I thought it made absolutely no sense because the whole point of destroying the ring was to prevent Sauron from retaking physical form and regaining his full strength.

If he could still manifest into the giant, spiked, battering ram of a being and march out of Mordor to beat up Aragorn, why had he stayed put throughout the entire trilogy?

He may have been weaker than his 1st age self, but he could probably have captured Frodo himself, or single-handedly smashed the walls of Helm’s Deep without the use of Saruman’s bombs, and any time he was somehow ‘slain’ in battle, (there wouldn’t be a ring to cut off his finger this time so what are the rules now?) he’d simply respawn atop Barad-Dûr as the eye.
 
He had a body though according to the Books by the time of the events of the Lord of the Rings. Most likely he was pretty weak without the ring in that body. Not in spirit of course.
PJ decided that the Eye should be an actual manifestation as opposed to a simple symbol of him.
 
My aunt who got me into the books when I was just 5 years old stormed out of the Fellowship and never even saw the others. She could not handle the changes. For me being a huge fan of the books it was always the second viewing before I fully appreciated the movies. It might have also been because my first viewing was always at midnight opening night. Might not have been the best way to enjoy a 3 hour movie for the first time. Still at least I didn’t bust out laughing at serious parts like I did when I saw Revenge of the Sith at midnight.
 
He had a body though according to the Books by the time of the events of the Lord of the Rings. Most likely he was pretty weak without the ring in that body. Not in spirit of course.
PJ decided that the Eye should be an actual manifestation as opposed to a simple symbol of him.
You've got to ignore the books in this instance and just go off the infomation we're presented with in the movies.

Sauron was pretty much just shown to be a telepathic eye that was bound to his tower.

Showing his angelic spirit form to Aragorn as some sort of manipulative vision would have been cool but putting him back in the armour and having him physically interact with the characters during battle simply made no sense given their approach throughout the rest of the trilogy.
 
You've got to ignore the books in this instance and just go off the infomation we're presented with in the movies.

Sauron was pretty much just shown to be a telepathic eye that was bound to his tower.

Showing his angelic spirit form to Aragorn as some sort of manipulative vision would have been cool but putting him back in the armour and having him physically interact with the characters during battle simply made no sense given their approach throughout the rest of the trilogy.
Agreed. Honestly as someone who never read the books and only really got into the deeper lore recently, I always thought that Sauron was the giant eye, and he only existed as a ghost or something that couldn't do much more than issue commands. I always wondered exactly how getting the ring was supposed to bring him back to life. Does one of his orc generals just throw it into the eye and he comes back to life? It was only much later that I realized that he actually did have a weakened body the whole time.
 
He does!? Where? What does it look like?

Sidenote: Harry Potter robbed this book blind.
It isn't really gone into with any detail. The only thing we are explicitly told is by Gollum who apparently had been personally tortured by him. All he said was that he had only 4 fingers on one of his hands.
 
There’s an awful lot about Sauron I don’t understand and just don’t think about. I don’t even understand the ring or any rings of power. What gives them their power?

Also-
Was it actually Sauron physically fighting in the battle of the last alliance or was that huge suit of armour sort of possessed by his essence via the ring?
Isn’t Sauron just a man-sized man or can he ‘embiggen’ himself?

If that actually was him, why did being parted from the ring cause him to explode and disappear?

Was the ring the only thing binding him to the mortal plain? If so, how did he reform himself, and why would he rebuild his body with only 4 figures if he was starting from scratch, seeing as there were no physical remains after his defeat?

Is the one ring essentially a horcrux?
Gandalf says Sauron’s life force is bound to the one ring but it’s not like with Voldemort where it would be a fragment of his soul; when the ring is destroyed, Sauron dies so the guy poured his entire life force into a tiny object that he had to wear at all times.

That would explain why his body- if that were somehow his 9ft tall body- was destroyed after being parted from the ring- I guess.

The best part is that I don’t need answers to any of these questions. I love the story and characters so much that all I need to know about Sauron is that he’s bad and mustn’t get the ring. Simples.
 
For most of these questions I could look up exact quotes from Tolkien's letters and other sources but I am way too lazy for that so I will try to use my own words. :)

Sauron didnt factually die when the ring got destroyed as he was a maia, an immortal, what happened that he lost so much of his power because it was poured into the One Ring that he lost the power and ability to ever take shape again.

He was participating in the Battle of the Last Alliance only at the very end as that was actually the end of a 7 years long siege of Barad-dur.

Sauron or any maia's size for that matter is not set in stone, they could take up many shapes, Sauron could too (Werewolf ,Huge Bat, beautiful elf shape etc.) but when a maia takes the shape and has it on for too long they get attached to it the longer they wear it and use it.
So losing a body is a huge loss and after each "death" of a body it requires more time and power to take up another form.
It took him about 1000 years to form a body after his fall at Barad-dur.
Sauron lost his different bodies at least 3 times as far as I remember maybe even more (but again too lazy now) throughout the Ages.

The size could be Huge but not Gigantic, when he appeared on Numenor in the Second Age (as a prisoner first then later advisor of the King) as a beautiful elf then he was taller than any numenorean who ever lived (Elendil was 7ft 11), and the average height was about 6ft 4 there.

All who entered at the creation of the Universe willingly (called Ea) Valar and Maiar were bound to its existence so they could not ever leave it.
Bodies were jsut shapes or like capes for them so they never died.
Morgoth the archevil, master of Sauron was one of the Valar so he did not die either, but was chained and cast into the Void outside of the walls of Ea after his capture at the end of the First Age.

The exact way of how his body got destroyed during that battle is not described by Tolkien, just that Gil-Galad and Elendil died while taking him down, Isildur only cut the ring off of the finger.
 
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If I'm remembering correctly, at one point Jackson & Co. considered showing Sauron as a physical being (other than the deleted Black Gate boss fight). I believe there's concept art somewhere of him looking all withered and wraithlike on a throne. I think. But it didn't progress beyond that. They decided to go with the Eye as a more visceral and ominous representation of the character. A better choice, in my opinion. (Particularly since we already see three other withered and/or evil guys lounging in thrones over the course of the movies - Possessed Theoden, Saruman and Denethor.)

I would also bet that they shot the Black Gate fight stuff because somebody at the studio insisted there be a BIG THIRD ACT FIGHT between the MAIN GOOD GUY and the MAIN BAD GUY, and not because that's the way they thought the climax should happen. But I'm 100% guessing. It just feels like a studio note that they had to indulge.
 
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Good q&a here, i also never understood sauron in the books or movies.

Why put all his power in the ring when you risk losing it? Just bc that ring can somehow dominate the other rings?


Also i understand that characters need weaknesses, but vader/anakin and sauron lost so many battles, they barely feel invincible or super super powerful at all as main antagonists. ;p
 
Good q&a here, i also never understood sauron in the books or movies.

Why put all his power in the ring when you risk losing it? Just bc that ring can somehow dominate the other rings?


Also i understand that characters need weaknesses, but vader/anakin and sauron lost so many battles, they barely feel invincible or super super powerful at all as main antagonists. ;p
Exactly thats why he created the One ring "to rule them all".
The 3 rings of the Elves could only be used during the Thrid Age because Sauron didnt have the One Ring on him, if he had he would have had control over those too.
He was most likely even in his last form (when we didnt see him at all) stronger than anyone on Middle Earth but the fear and experience of losing his body even with the ring on him back in the second age made him fearful to go personally into battle ever again.
 
There's another one? Beast Kingdom野兽国:究极英雄系列 DAH-096 指环王:护戒使者 黑暗魔君 索伦兵人在线BBICN - Powered by Discuz!
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There’s an awful lot about Sauron I don’t understand and just don’t think about. I don’t even understand the ring or any rings of power. What gives them their power?

Also-
Was it actually Sauron physically fighting in the battle of the last alliance or was that huge suit of armour sort of possessed by his essence via the ring?
Isn’t Sauron just a man-sized man or can he ‘embiggen’ himself?

If that actually was him, why did being parted from the ring cause him to explode and disappear?

Was the ring the only thing binding him to the mortal plain? If so, how did he reform himself, and why would he rebuild his body with only 4 figures if he was starting from scratch, seeing as there were no physical remains after his defeat?

Is the one ring essentially a horcrux?
Gandalf says Sauron’s life force is bound to the one ring but it’s not like with Voldemort where it would be a fragment of his soul; when the ring is destroyed, Sauron dies so the guy poured his entire life force into a tiny object that he had to wear at all times.

That would explain why his body- if that were somehow his 9ft tall body- was destroyed after being parted from the ring- I guess.

The best part is that I don’t need answers to any of these questions. I love the story and characters so much that all I need to know about Sauron is that he’s bad and mustn’t get the ring. Simples.
The Rings were created as a way to both "perfect" Middle-Earth and make it the rival of Aman/Valinor, but were more importantly created as a way of fighting the natural diminishing of the world through time.

In Tolkien's world the great powers, magic, beauty and wonder of earlier ages decreases over time - for both the forces of evil as well as those of good. The Rings were created by Annatar[Sauron in disguise] in collaboration with Celebrimbor to this end - at this point Sauron had genuinely noble [though insanely myopic and misguided] intentions and wished to help fix the world he felt had been abandoned by the Valar/gods [though not capital G God - he is pretty handsoff], Sauron... being Sauron came to the conclusion that he, as the last of the Great Powers still inhabiting Middle-Earth had the right and the duty to direct Middle Earth to a new and glorious future.... but only under his absolute rule. Sauron was so obsessed with order he considered things like the free-will of other beings to be an obstacle to the utopia he would build and be the benevolent dictator of. Of course, there is also the added problem that his idea of utopia is also utterly terrifying and alien to most living beings. But with the intention of dominating the other wielders of the Rings of Power he forged the One and poured into it the greater part of his natural angelic power.

The reason this didn't work is because the Elven Rings were made by Celebrimbor in secret without Sauron, so he couldn't corrupt them directly. The wielders of these 3 Rings could maintain their kingdoms as the magnificent wonders of the Ancient powers they are in a diminishing world- this is why Lorien, Rivendell and The Grey Havens are so much more "magical" and spiritual than other places in Middle-Earth, why they are protected from Evil and why they are the last key havens of the Eldar/Elves. However, while the Three were not made by Sauron directly they WERE made with the knowledge he imparted to Celebrimbor and thus are tied to the One Ring - which is why their power fades when the One is destroyed and Sauron fallen.

The One Ring had a few effects, the chief purpose as I said was to control the minds of Middle-Earths rulers among whom the lesser rings would be distributed, secondly while wearing the Ring Sauron's power actually increased - it effectively worked as a lens that greater concentrated his power more than his directing it himself, thirdly the One Ring kept his powers "constant" - the use of magic in Middle-Earth slowly diminishes the spiritual power of Maia/Angelic beings especially when in the service of evil or the creation of great works or shapeshifting [all of which Sauron did often] - the One prevented his powers diminishing through use and it is why in the Third Age he is undoubtedly the mightiest being in Middle Earth and spiritually far more powerful than even the likes of the Balrog or the Istari [Wizards like Gandalf and Saruman, who are also angels like Sauron but unlike him are bound into a frail human form], simply because he has remained at the stature of a Great Power of an earlier age in a world constantly diminishing, an example of a powerful Ainur [angelic being] who DIDN'T have a device like the One Ring is Morgoth, Sauron's former Master and basically Satan, who despite being the second most powerful being in creation [after God himself] used so much of his power in creating minions, corrupting earth, destroying things and being evil that in the end he was weaker than his own servants like Sauron despite Sauron originally being a much lower ranked angel than he.
The final [but unintended] effect of the Ring is connected to the last point, Sauron - by having the vast majority of his power "outside" of himself, effectively safeguarded himself against his power being destroyed with physical defeats, When Eru [capital G God] destroyed Numenor with him on it Sauron would have been utterly defeated with no chance of returning - instead as the One preserved the majority of his power, he was back up and running in no time at all, when Gil-Galad and Elendil defeated him in the Battle of the Last Alliance - without the Ring he would never have returned and his defeat there would have cast him low for all time but as the Ring endured his powers were undiminished and he had lost none of his potency. In this sense the One Ring acts like a Horcrux/phylactery = but those ideas stole it from the One Ring or from Koschei the Deathless rather than the One Ring being inspired by them. And like I said this was never the intention when creating the Ring = Sauron is an angel, he is completely and utterly immortal and will continue to exist until the very end of the Universe even after the Ring is destroyed he is still alive, and he never conceived of ever being brought so low as the Ring would accidently save him/his power by being outside of his body.

As for the films depictions - Its hard to say what they were going for, but Sauron like WAS the armor rather than wearing it - Sauron is an angel and thus has no "true" physical form, instead he essentially creates and wears and can change the bodies he wears like we would do clothing [though this requires a degree of power and if an angel spends too long in one form and indulges too much in earthly things like lust, gluttony, etc they can become trapped in in - Sauron however was a particularly skilled shapeshifter until he was rendered unable to assume fair form again when Eru smote Numenor - likely as a punishment for him using his fair appearance to commit evil deeds and as a symbolism that there was no more chance of redemption for him nor pretentions to good intentions].
The Idea of him exploding when the Ring is cut off him is entirely an invention of the film - Sauron's was defeated in combat by Gil-Galad and Elendil [though both died in the process] and his body was so damaged his spirit was formed to discard it and flee - thus leaving the Ring behind which Isildur cut from his hand and claimed [though he lacked the will to subvert Sauron's hold over the Ring and it eventually betrayed him].
Sauron is bound to the physical universe like every other being in both Middle-Earth and Valinor except from Humans who go somewhere else when they die. Sauron cannot die as he is an angel, he cannot even die in the way Elves and the like do when their spirits go to the Halls of Mandos [think something like Hades] but in truth all beings in Middle-Earth are immortal in a way and can never leave the physical universe except for Man.
This is because in a way these beings souls are part of their physical existence - this is why Elves bodies can simply die when their soul's despair is too great, the flesh can reflect their spirit - same applies to Sauron when he reformed his physical body after his defeat at the Last Alliance, without the Ring he still bore some of the "spiritual scars" of that defeat and thus they manifested in the body he was wearing.
Sauron is still in commune with the Ring even when he isn't wearing it - its HIS power, he can still use it even when not wearing the Ring - the difference is he would lack the lens like effect the Ring has that allows him to better direct or concentrate his natural power and also the risk that a being of sufficient will/power/status might be able to sieze control of the Ring from him - which would [for Sauron] have the exact same effect as if someone destroyed it [which he never for an instant considered - in Sauron's twisted worldview absolute power is factually irresistable, all beings are corruptible and thus are incapable of resisting the Ring, to him the idea of someone bearing the Ring without the intention of wielding it is simply impossible].

The Quest to destroy the Ring, is in many ways, a desparate last hope for the Free Peoples - Sauron doesn't NEED the One Ring to win, he is unquestionably the single most powerful being in Middle Earth - there are none left in the Third Age that can defeat him, he is unquestionably the dominant military power in Middle Earth - despite the victories we see in the movies the truth is that the vast bulk of Sauron's forces were still in reserve, destroying the One Ring is the ONLY way the Free People could survive and win. Sauron, like I said, didn't fear the Ring's destruction as afterall he he literally cannot imagine the possibility, but he did fear it falling into the hands of someone like Galadriel, Gandalf or Saruman who might have the power/will/status to usurp his control of the Ring and thus rob him of his power - but Tolkien himself states than ONLY Gandalf might have had a chance given that he is a maia and had genuinely benevolent intent and deeds [as those who claim the Ring for evil ends/desire for power etc could never usurp Sauron as all evil deeds and intents serve him as the Dark Lord - which is why Saruman's delusion that he could wrest control of the Ring from Sauron was utter madness] and even THEN Tolkien only gave Gandalf a 50/50 chance.

The lore is complicated but honestly so cool - it helps that Sauron is my favorite part of the wider canon.
 
The Rings were created as a way to both "perfect" Middle-Earth and make it the rival of Aman/Valinor, but were more importantly created as a way of fighting the natural diminishing of the world through time.

In Tolkien's world the great powers, magic, beauty and wonder of earlier ages decreases over time - for both the forces of evil as well as those of good. The Rings were created by Annatar[Sauron in disguise] in collaboration with Celebrimbor to this end - at this point Sauron had genuinely noble [though insanely myopic and misguided] intentions and wished to help fix the world he felt had been abandoned by the Valar/gods [though not capital G God - he is pretty handsoff], Sauron... being Sauron came to the conclusion that he, as the last of the Great Powers still inhabiting Middle-Earth had the right and the duty to direct Middle Earth to a new and glorious future.... but only under his absolute rule. Sauron was so obsessed with order he considered things like the free-will of other beings to be an obstacle to the utopia he would build and be the benevolent dictator of. Of course, there is also the added problem that his idea of utopia is also utterly terrifying and alien to most living beings. But with the intention of dominating the other wielders of the Rings of Power he forged the One and poured into it the greater part of his natural angelic power.

The reason this didn't work is because the Elven Rings were made by Celebrimbor in secret without Sauron, so he couldn't corrupt them directly. The wielders of these 3 Rings could maintain their kingdoms as the magnificent wonders of the Ancient powers they are in a diminishing world- this is why Lorien, Rivendell and The Grey Havens are so much more "magical" and spiritual than other places in Middle-Earth, why they are protected from Evil and why they are the last key havens of the Eldar/Elves. However, while the Three were not made by Sauron directly they WERE made with the knowledge he imparted to Celebrimbor and thus are tied to the One Ring - which is why their power fades when the One is destroyed and Sauron fallen.

The One Ring had a few effects, the chief purpose as I said was to control the minds of Middle-Earths rulers among whom the lesser rings would be distributed, secondly while wearing the Ring Sauron's power actually increased - it effectively worked as a lens that greater concentrated his power more than his directing it himself, thirdly the One Ring kept his powers "constant" - the use of magic in Middle-Earth slowly diminishes the spiritual power of Maia/Angelic beings especially when in the service of evil or the creation of great works or shapeshifting [all of which Sauron did often] - the One prevented his powers diminishing through use and it is why in the Third Age he is undoubtedly the mightiest being in Middle Earth and spiritually far more powerful than even the likes of the Balrog or the Istari [Wizards like Gandalf and Saruman, who are also angels like Sauron but unlike him are bound into a frail human form], simply because he has remained at the stature of a Great Power of an earlier age in a world constantly diminishing, an example of a powerful Ainur [angelic being] who DIDN'T have a device like the One Ring is Morgoth, Sauron's former Master and basically Satan, who despite being the second most powerful being in creation [after God himself] used so much of his power in creating minions, corrupting earth, destroying things and being evil that in the end he was weaker than his own servants like Sauron despite Sauron originally being a much lower ranked angel than he.
The final [but unintended] effect of the Ring is connected to the last point, Sauron - by having the vast majority of his power "outside" of himself, effectively safeguarded himself against his power being destroyed with physical defeats, When Eru [capital G God] destroyed Numenor with him on it Sauron would have been utterly defeated with no chance of returning - instead as the One preserved the majority of his power, he was back up and running in no time at all, when Gil-Galad and Elendil defeated him in the Battle of the Last Alliance - without the Ring he would never have returned and his defeat there would have cast him low for all time but as the Ring endured his powers were undiminished and he had lost none of his potency. In this sense the One Ring acts like a Horcrux/phylactery = but those ideas stole it from the One Ring or from Koschei the Deathless rather than the One Ring being inspired by them. And like I said this was never the intention when creating the Ring = Sauron is an angel, he is completely and utterly immortal and will continue to exist until the very end of the Universe even after the Ring is destroyed he is still alive, and he never conceived of ever being brought so low as the Ring would accidently save him/his power by being outside of his body.

As for the films depictions - Its hard to say what they were going for, but Sauron like WAS the armor rather than wearing it - Sauron is an angel and thus has no "true" physical form, instead he essentially creates and wears and can change the bodies he wears like we would do clothing [though this requires a degree of power and if an angel spends too long in one form and indulges too much in earthly things like lust, gluttony, etc they can become trapped in in - Sauron however was a particularly skilled shapeshifter until he was rendered unable to assume fair form again when Eru smote Numenor - likely as a punishment for him using his fair appearance to commit evil deeds and as a symbolism that there was no more chance of redemption for him nor pretentions to good intentions].
The Idea of him exploding when the Ring is cut off him is entirely an invention of the film - Sauron's was defeated in combat by Gil-Galad and Elendil [though both died in the process] and his body was so damaged his spirit was formed to discard it and flee - thus leaving the Ring behind which Isildur cut from his hand and claimed [though he lacked the will to subvert Sauron's hold over the Ring and it eventually betrayed him].
Sauron is bound to the physical universe like every other being in both Middle-Earth and Valinor except from Humans who go somewhere else when they die. Sauron cannot die as he is an angel, he cannot even die in the way Elves and the like do when their spirits go to the Halls of Mandos [think something like Hades] but in truth all beings in Middle-Earth are immortal in a way and can never leave the physical universe except for Man.
This is because in a way these beings souls are part of their physical existence - this is why Elves bodies can simply die when their soul's despair is too great, the flesh can reflect their spirit - same applies to Sauron when he reformed his physical body after his defeat at the Last Alliance, without the Ring he still bore some of the "spiritual scars" of that defeat and thus they manifested in the body he was wearing.
Sauron is still in commune with the Ring even when he isn't wearing it - its HIS power, he can still use it even when not wearing the Ring - the difference is he would lack the lens like effect the Ring has that allows him to better direct or concentrate his natural power and also the risk that a being of sufficient will/power/status might be able to sieze control of the Ring from him - which would [for Sauron] have the exact same effect as if someone destroyed it [which he never for an instant considered - in Sauron's twisted worldview absolute power is factually irresistable, all beings are corruptible and thus are incapable of resisting the Ring, to him the idea of someone bearing the Ring without the intention of wielding it is simply impossible].

The Quest to destroy the Ring, is in many ways, a desparate last hope for the Free Peoples - Sauron doesn't NEED the One Ring to win, he is unquestionably the single most powerful being in Middle Earth - there are none left in the Third Age that can defeat him, he is unquestionably the dominant military power in Middle Earth - despite the victories we see in the movies the truth is that the vast bulk of Sauron's forces were still in reserve, destroying the One Ring is the ONLY way the Free People could survive and win. Sauron, like I said, didn't fear the Ring's destruction as afterall he he literally cannot imagine the possibility, but he did fear it falling into the hands of someone like Galadriel, Gandalf or Saruman who might have the power/will/status to usurp his control of the Ring and thus rob him of his power - but Tolkien himself states than ONLY Gandalf might have had a chance given that he is a maia and had genuinely benevolent intent and deeds [as those who claim the Ring for evil ends/desire for power etc could never usurp Sauron as all evil deeds and intents serve him as the Dark Lord - which is why Saruman's delusion that he could wrest control of the Ring from Sauron was utter madness] and even THEN Tolkien only gave Gandalf a 50/50 chance.

The lore is complicated but honestly so cool - it helps that Sauron is my favorite part of the wider canon.
That post was more entertaining, compelling, and comprehensive than the entire first season of Rings of Power. Thank you.
 
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That post was more entertaining, compelling, and compressive than the entire first season of Rings of Power. Thank you.
His post is much better than Rings of Power since he does know and care about the Lore unlike most likely anyone who had anything to do with Rings of Power.
Thats why its almost a physical pain for people like him and me to watch that series as it deviates/changes way too many things to be even considered mediocre.
Somehow/strangely even visually feels off compared to a more than 20 year old LOTR.
And LOTR wasnt perfect either for those who know the Lore but still you could feel that they cared about it at least.
 
His post is much better than Rings of Power since he does know and care about the Lore unlike most likely anyone who had anything to do with Rings of Power.
Thats why its almost a physical pain for people like him and me to watch that series as it deviates/changes way too many things to be even considered mediocre.
Somehow/strangely even visually feels off compared to a more than 20 year old LOTR.
And LOTR wasnt perfect either for those who know the Lore but still you could feel that they cared about it at least.
true the muses GIF
 
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