General Trek discussion

[Skyroes]

Putting this here so the mods don't get snippy.
I think LD fits in just fine. I've honestly not seen anything in it i thought was more ridiculous than, for instance, Paris and Janeway turning into salamanders. Or Sisko dancing the Alamarain. Or Picard modeling tights in Sherwood Forest. Or Kirk running for his life from a giant black cat.
The only real difference is that LD is animated. But there's always been a certain absurdity to Trek. And while the a long, loooong time the writers all tried to hide it (Thus why TAS was in canonical flux for so long) I'm really happy to see them fully embrace it in these modern shows.
Absurd can sit comfortably with serious. Just look at DS9's "In The Cards".

Q’s trickery and holodeck episodes are exempt. I’ll give you the salamanders though.

 

[davejames]

The DS9 Documentary What We left Behind did a 4k remaster of the big ship battle from Sacrifice of Angels. It was amazing and breaks my heart knowing we will likely never get a full 4k remaster of the series.

The clip can be found on YT for anyone who wants to see it, but I highly suggest finding and watching the documentry, it was really good, and my favorite bit was the What If we had a season 8 writer room breakdown that had Ronald Moore, and Ira Behr both pitching the story.

I believe the ship battle was put together by someone else, and it just got borrowed for the documentary because it was so impressive. But my memory is a little hazy on the details now.

If nothing else it would have been cool to at least remaster a handful of more iconic episodes, like Emissary, Pale Moonlight, Tribble-ations, Way of the Warrior, etc. as part of a box set. Just so we could have a taste of the show in proper HD. But I guess even that was too expensive.

 

[StarDude]

Nah Lower Decks just strays too far from what's "realistic" in Trek. It is absolutely much more absurd than non-new Trek. It's crazy to say it's not.

Its not about situations. It's about tone and character. The overly flexy commander, the constantly cursing cat, the silliness.

You could not put those same characters in an episode of TNG without it seeming like Roger Rabbit, even if they weren't cartoons.

 

[Kebron]

Nah Lower Decks just strays too far from what's "realistic" in Trek. It is absolutely much more absurd than non-new Trek. It's crazy to say it's not.

Its not about situations. It's about tone and character. The overly flexy commander, the constantly cursing cat, the silliness.

You could not put those same characters in an episode of TNG without it seeming like Roger Rabbit, even if they weren't cartoons.

Does it take it to the edge, sure it's a animated comedy, that pokes fun at itself and the franchise it comes from. But non new Trek had its own comedic silly characters, and I'm not counting Q. The Klingon that challenged Data to a strength contest, Captain Harriman and the "Its being installed Tuesday", Mr Homm, Captain Styles in Star Trek 3.

Trek isn't all seriousness all the time, it can be silly and funny too if you let it be.

 

[StarDude]

Does it take it to the edge, sure it's a animated comedy, that pokes fun at itself and the franchise it comes from. But non new Trek had its own comedic silly characters, and I'm not counting Q. The Klingon that challenged Data to a strength contest, Captain Harriman and the "Its being installed Tuesday", Mr Homm, Captain Styles in Star Trek 3.

Trek isn't all seriousness all the time, it can be silly and funny too if you let it be.

Of course it can be funny. But in a realistic to the universe way. Lower Decks is basically a more mild Star Trek Rich and Morty. If you were to mix them you'd just muddle the universes to the point where anything goes (like the current Marvel Universe, which is now trash). That does not make for good world-building. It's like making a Breaking Bad cartoon that is like South Park and then intermingling them. It wouldn't make sense for the show or universe.

Lower Decks worked in Strange New Worlds because it itself is basically a new universe. As much as I liked the musical episode, hell no, it CANNOT exist in Star Trek. At least not in the form it came in. They technobabbled it into absolute insanity, when IF they wanted that, there might have been ways to make it happen even in Trek. Like a Q-like entity... But they chose kind of poorly.
Or when Pike and crew turns into Romulans and their hair is restyled and stuff immediately. WAT? Good humor. Fine for THAT show. That literally CANNOT happen in old Trek. It is too ridiculous. I like it. But it cannot be in the same universe. And anyone who doesn't think so and disagrees, is also ridiculous and honestly probably isn't someone I'd trust. It's like porn, you know it when you see it. You see this, you KNOW it cannot work with old Trek. If you don't, I think you might have too many micro-plastics in your bloodstream...

:O

 

[Kebron]

Of course it can be funny. But in a realistic to the universe way. Lower Decks is basically a more mild Star Trek Rich and Morty. If you were to mix them you'd just muddle the universes to the point where anything goes (like the current Marvel Universe, which is now trash). That does not make for good world-building. It's like making a Breaking Bad cartoon that is like South Park and then intermingling them. It wouldn't make sense for the show or universe.

Lower Decks worked in Strange New Worlds because it itself is basically a new universe. As much as I liked the musical episode, hell no, it CANNOT exist in Star Trek. At least not in the form it came in. They technobabbled it into absolute insanity, when IF they wanted that, there might have been ways to make it happen even in Trek. Like a Q-like entity... But they chose kind of poorly.
Or when Pike and crew turns into Romulans and their hair is restyled and stuff immediately. WAT? Good humor. Fine for THAT show. That literally CANNOT happen in old Trek. It is too ridiculous. I like it. But it cannot be in the same universe. And anyone who doesn't think so and disagrees, is also ridiculous and honestly probably isn't someone I'd trust. It's like porn, you know it when you see it. You see this, you KNOW it cannot work with old Trek. If you don't, I think you might have too many micro-plastics in your bloodstream...

:O

If you put to much "reality" into a piece of Sci Fi Fiction then nothing will hold up, even the show itself. Trek has a lot of implausible impossible things. Spock's Brain, The Omega Glory immediately pop to ming as stretching belief to far, possibly more then Lower Decks, you want more I can easily name something from ever iteration of Trek.

But apparently you think I have to many microplastics, and don't trust me so, whatever.

I just don't take works of fiction so seriously as to draw a line in the sand. I'm not so entitled that I would say "No, this is impossible in your made up world, and anyone who disagrees is (insert mild demeaning insult here)

As long as I'm entertained or made to think that's all that matters to me.

 

[Pauln6a]

The discrepancies are mildly irritating at worst but I suppose a lot of Start Trek fan are on the autistic spectrum and feel passionately about any deviations.

The turbolift fight and magical blast doors in Discovery season 2 were a low point for me (I think the writers just didn't get that emergency bulkheads are just doors that limit decompression).

If they got some nerds to design the ship's internal functions, as well as external aesthetics, the writers would actually know what they are dealing with. I did get the impression that programmable matter was brought in so writers didn't have to give a single thought to continuity.

 

[afrog]

A+: TOS (one of the greatest things ever created by a human)
B+: VOY (compelling underdogs you root for, & Aged really well)
B-: TNG ( 1/3 excellent, 1/3 average, 1/3 bad)
C: DS9 ( really, really well written with unappealing cast & characters on ugly sets)
D: ENT: (Berman & Braga running on fumes)

Bonus: TOS movies A+, TNG movies D+
Just opinions, nothing serious ☺

I like your format so I'll indulge:

A: TOS (one of the greatest things since the wheel, best looking starship model ever built for the screen)
B+: ENT: (enjoyed the atmosphere, acting, characters, and many excellent stories)
C+: TNG (some great stories, many bad stories, some good characters, some really bad characters)
D: DS9, VOY (beginnings of wokeism, not my cup of tea or coffee)
F: All the rest of the streaming series: (wokeism in full array, thanks but no thanks)

A: TOS movies—yes, even Star Trek V: The Final Frontier (Refit 1701/A = second best looking starship model ever built for the screen)
B+: Star Trek Generations
B: Star Trek: First Contact
C-: Star Trek: Insurrection, Star Trek: Nemesis

B+: Star Trek (2009)
B: Star Trek Into Darkness
C: Star Trek Beyond

S31 fo’get about it.

Note: Like a college professor, my grades are subject to my mood swings.

 

[Pauln6a]

So has anybody tried some of these new AI tools to animate any of these figures yet?

 

[Kebron]

So has anybody tried some of these new AI tools to animate any of these figures yet?

Sixth Scale Mafia has. He posted some on his social media about a month ago.

 

[Kebron]

D: DS9, VOY (beginnings of wokeism, not my cup of tea or coffee)

Ds9 and Voy isnt something everyone likes so I wont debate that. However, Trek has always been woke, going all the way back to TOS it has always had progressive ideals and promoted them. It didn't begin in DS9 and Voy as you claim.

 

[afrog]

Ds9 and Voy isnt something everyone likes so I wont debate that. However, Trek has always been woke, going all the way back to TOS it has always had progressive ideals and promoted them. It didn't begin in DS9 and Voy as you claim.

To a certain degree you are right that TOS was socially progressive for its time. But it presented the issues with reason and with the lack of inherent vulgarity and self importance that you see now. These issues were not a permanent fixture of the show to stain it. Yes, prejudice and hate and injustice were addressed in some episodes. These stories were comparatively balanced, not in your face ostentatious, and they didn't consume the story and the series as a whole. There were stories, some with lessons, about the dangers of hate and other things, but they were across the board: prejudice, fascism, greed, war, impetuous passion, impetuous youth. But TOS didn't assault you with the glorified and obstinate line-up of characters, who are more caricatures, and their intractable ideas. TOS was not that. Writers and producers weren't obsessed with this stuff. Think of your favorite TOS episodes and why you like them. Think Ellison, Sturgeon, Matheson, Coon, Sohl, Bixby, Fontana, and of course Gene whose finger had to dip in all the scripts. Of course many of these scripts were imperfect. But these talented people were mainly great story tellers not sociologists with agendas.

DS9 and Voyager presented the next "progression," pun not intended, and the beginnings of the slow inversion of this pyramid of social sanity, and I think there were signs of it even in some of TNG.

 

[afrog]

I'm afraid to ask what you think was "woke" about DS9....

You're right, if you need to ask, you probably shouldn't.

 

[DParga21]

To a certain degree you are right that TOS was socially progressive for its time. But it presented the issues with reason and with the lack of inherent vulgarity and self importance that you see now. These issues were not a permanent fixture of the show to stain it. Yes, prejudice and hate and injustice were addressed in some episodes. These stories were comparatively balanced, not in your face ostentatious, and they didn't consume the story and the series as a whole. There were stories, some with lessons, about the dangers of hate and other things, but they were across the board: prejudice, fascism, greed, war, impetuous passion, impetuous youth. But TOS didn't assault you with the glorified and obstinate line-up of characters, who are more caricatures, and their intractable ideas. TOS was not that. Writers and producers weren't obsessed with this stuff. Think of your favorite TOS episodes and why you like them. Think Ellison, Sturgeon, Matheson, Coon, Sohl, Bixby, Fontana, and of course Gene whose finger had to dip in all the scripts. Of course many of these scripts were imperfect. But these talented people were mainly great story tellers not sociologists with agendas.

DS9 and Voyager presented the next "progression," pun not intended, and the beginnings of the slow inversion of this pyramid of social sanity, and I think there were signs of it even in some of TNG.

Balance of Terror.
Let That Be Your Last Battlefield.
Plato's Stepchildren.
Devil In The Dark.
The Enterprise Incident.
City On The Edge Of Forever
A Taste of Armageddon
Day of the Dove
Star Trek 4.
Star Trek 6.

That's just off the top of my head. Those are TOS episodes / films with very overt messages. Including the Ellison script.

 

[afrog]

Balance of Terror.
Let That Be Your Last Battlefield.
Plato's Stepchildren.
Devil In The Dark.
The Enterprise Incident.
City On The Edge Of Forever
A Taste of Armageddon
Day of the Dove
Star Trek 4.
Star Trek 6.

That's just off the top of my head. Those are TOS episodes / films with very overt messages. Including the Ellison script.

I never claimed that there were no messages in TOS. Please reread. And try not to cherry-pick one thing from my post but do look at the whole message.

Nevertheless I don't expect many of you to agree with my point of you.

 

[Pauln6a]

"Keep your prejudice in your quarters," in Balance of Terror was pretty up front.

 

[afrog]

"Keep your prejudice in your quarters," in Balance of Terror was pretty up front.

Yes, and so?

[In sickbay]
STILES: I'm alive, sir. But I wouldn't be. Mister Spock pulled me out of the phaser room. He saved my life. He risked his life after I...

Balance of Terror was a story of redemption and of learning, and of high adventure! It was not a dark episode crying for reform, not an episode of doom and gloom and despair, one requiring extremism and somber fringe characters installed to make woke points. This so called 'in your face' moment evolved and lived up to an episode in the spirit of a bright future. A Star Trek future. An adventure story of more than the sum of its lessons.

 

[StarDude]

I'm curious as to what is inherently vulgar in modern Trek.

I hate Discovery. I dislike most new Trek pretty fervently. But I can't think of anything that can be described as such. I know some of the issues that are pushed are perhaps too in your face. But at most I roll my eyes but also think "you ain't wrong I guess".

For the life of me I cannot think of any message in modern Trek that is... vulgar of all words. Just too obvious in it's presentation and written not super well.


And also, do say old Trek didn't do the same kind of stuff is absurd. If "woke" existed as a word back then, Star Trek was 100000% woke. Soooo many episodes addressing hot button issues of the times.

 

[afrog]

I'm curious as to what is inherently vulgar in modern Trek.

I hate Discovery. I dislike most new Trek pretty fervently. But I can't think of anything that can be described as such. I know some of the issues that are pushed are perhaps too in your face. But at most I roll my eyes but also think "you ain't wrong I guess".

For the life of me I cannot think of any message in modern Trek that is... vulgar of all words. Just too obvious in it's presentation and written not super well.


And also, do say old Trek didn't do the same kind of stuff is absurd. If "woke" existed as a word back then, Star Trek was 100000% woke. Soooo many episodes addressing hot button issues of the times.

Maybe I used the wrong word. I didn't mean vulgar as in obscene, or gross, or sexually explicit, or otherwise offensive in that way. I just meant, not holding back, unrestrained and hyper attentive in its casting, writing, character development and philosophy. A doctrine so pervasive in today's entertainment industry. One that bows down to serve the wokeness almost exclusive to all other aspects of telling a good story, of making a good Star Trek show.

 

[Lord Exor]

Maybe I used the wrong word. I didn't mean vulgar as in obscene, or gross, or sexually explicit, or otherwise offensive in that way. I just meant, not holding back, unrestrained and hyper attentive in its casting, writing, character development and philosophy. A doctrine so pervasive in today's entertainment industry. One that bows down to serve the wokeness almost exclusive to all other aspects of telling a good story, of making a good Star Trek show.

If someone is decrying wokeness, then there's likely an undercurrent of disapproval with progressive ideals overall, in which case an interrogation over this individual's understanding of Star Trek is valid. After all, "wokeness" is being cited as the point of contention, not the quality of the writing in itself, or the effectiveness of the material in addressing topics of concern.