General Trek discussion

[davejames]

Yes, and so?

[In sickbay]
STILES: I'm alive, sir. But I wouldn't be. Mister Spock pulled me out of the phaser room. He saved my life. He risked his life after I...

Balance of Terror was a story of redemption and of learning, and of high adventure! It was not a dark episode crying for reform, not an episode of doom and gloom and despair, one requiring extremism and somber fringe characters installed to make woke points. This so called 'in your face' moment evolved and lived up to an episode in the spirit of a bright future. A Star Trek future. An adventure story of more than the sum of its lessons.

I'm not exactly sure how we reach that "bright Star Trek future" if we're excluding groups of people just because they make you and others uncomfortable.

And the reason the messaging was so subtle on TOS was because it was the freakin 1960s and that's the most the network would allow back then. The suits were constantly breathing down the writers necks and they had to be extra careful not to upset them and have their episodes banned in the south.

Personally I would hope Trek could be a bit more daring than that 60 years later.

 

[afrog]

If someone is decrying wokeness, then there's likely an undercurrent of disapproval with progressive ideals overall, in which case an interrogation over this individual's understanding of Star Trek is valid. After all, "wokeness" is being cited as the point of contention, not the quality of the writing in itself, or the effectiveness of the material in addressing topics of concern.

Stated as expected, albeit more carefully this time around.

 

[afrog]

I'm not exactly sure how we reach that "bright Star Trek future" if we're excluding groups of people just because they make you and others uncomfortable.

Huh? Sorry, my friend, you misunderstand completely. Certain 'groups of people' do not make me feel uncomfortable. And I resent the jump to your conclusion. Some of these 'people' are my best of friends. Kind of proves my point: I just don't think Star Trek ought to be defined by woke ideologies to the vehement and deliberate exclusion of important and fun storytelling just to prove something.

 

[StarDude]

To be fair I know liberals and conservatives... Even some liberals are anti-woke not because they're not progressive, but often because they view stuff as sometimes going too far, or over-correcting.

I'll give an example in modern Trek that bothered me...

In Discovery there's that kid who wants to change their pronoun. From she/her to them/they or whatever.
It was treated as a big moment. However... the whole time I'm like "it's like 700 years in the future, by then this kind of thing would be soooo accepted and casual nobody would really care... like a dad whose son comes out as gay to him and the dad is just like 'that's great but have you done your chores?".

I don't mind the whole pronoun thing. I have friends who use different pronouns and trans friends. Yeah I know I'm doing the whole "I have friends that are..." thing but I do! I just found that story element boring and too in my face and forced. I'd much preferred they had just had the character go by those pronouns maybe from the start or maybe just in a casual line "yeah can you call me they?" "oh sure!" THE END. Or better yet, addressed the whole issue through an alien lense. Why? Because humans are supposed to be over the dumb predjudices. So lets do what Star Trek does best and see those same predjudices in action in an alien society and written in a unique, sci-fi way too! Like that episode of TNG where there was that... 3rd gendered person? I barely remember but it was more interesting.

That seemed a bit too "woke" for me. But "woke" itself is a stupid word used to deminish what is often good strides in the right direciton in social issues. And as much as I hate some of modern Trek, again, it's messages aren't bad. The show is just kind of dumb and annoying lol...
Yeah, it's annoying to feel preached at. That's why you stick those points in an alien society and mix in some phasers or a Picard speech or Worf kicking butt to make it interesting. Also that'll fool some stupid people into changing their mind without them noticing.

 

[davejames]

Huh? Sorry, my friend, you misunderstand completely. Certain 'groups of people' do not make me feel uncomfortable. And I resent the jump to your conclusion. Some of these 'people' are my best of friends. Kind of proves my point: I just don't think Star Trek ought to be defined by woke ideologies to the vehement and deliberate exclusion of important and fun storytelling just to prove something.

Well it would probably be helpful if you described what "woke ideology" you actually have a problem with.

 

[StarDude]

When DS9 was coming out, it was advertised and marketted quite a bit about having the first black captain.

When Voyager was coming out, it was advertised and marketted quite a bit about having the first woman captain.

Star Trek was soooo woke that they would very often be censored and told they had to change story elements. Whether it's the Kirk Uhura kiss, or the couple of episodes in TNG and DS9 where they writers were trying to address social issues surrounding homophobia (Riker's episode with that other gender person, Jadzia stuff). The parent company would literally stop them sometimes.

Star Trek is super woke. It always was, and honestly I hope it always will be. It pushes the envelope and should never stop.
Yeah, it can be written better though heh... And the whole "woke" word is dumb. It's like all the modern terminology. Another being "cancelled"... like... there's nothing new with cancel culture... people got cancelled throughout human history... it was just called normal "consequences" before. The internet might focus it more but there's no stopping that.

 

[davejames]

To be fair I know liberals and conservatives... Even some liberals are anti-woke not because they're not progressive, but often because they view stuff as sometimes going too far, or over-correcting.

I'll give an example in modern Trek that bothered me...

In Discovery there's that kid who wants to change their pronoun. From she/her to them/they or whatever.
It was treated as a big moment. However... the whole time I'm like "it's like 700 years in the future, by then this kind of thing would be soooo accepted and casual nobody would really care... like a dad whose son comes out as gay to him and the dad is just like 'that's great but have you done your chores?".

I don't mind the whole pronoun thing. I have friends who use different pronouns and trans friends. Yeah I know I'm doing the whole "I have friends that are..." thing but I do! I just found that story element boring and too in my face and forced. I'd much preferred they had just had the character go by those pronouns maybe from the start or maybe just in a casual line "yeah can you call me they?" "oh sure!END. Or better yet, addressed the whole issue through an alien lense. Why? Because humans are supposed to be over the dumb predjudices. So lets do what Star Trek does best and see those same predjudices in action in an alien society and written in a unique, sci-fi way too! Like that episode of TNG where there was that... 3rd gendered person? I barely remember but it was more interesting.

That seemed a bit too "woke" for me. But "woke" itself is a stupid word used to deminish what is often good strides in the right direciton in social issues. And as much as I hate some of modern Trek, again, it's messages aren't bad. The show is just kind of dumb and annoying lol...
Yeah, it's annoying to feel preached at. That's why you stick those points in an alien society and mix in some phasers or a Picard speech or Worf kicking butt to make it interesting. Also that'll fool some stupid people into changing their mind without them noticing.

Yeah I agree that moment was a bit forced, but it's still a real issue for that community that I think is worth addressing in at least one scene in an episode of modern Trek. And it's also worthwhile to show just how simple an adjustment that was for the crew. And that it's not something worth throwing a fit over.

 

[TheClient]

Maybe I used the wrong word. I didn't mean vulgar as in obscene, or gross, or sexually explicit, or otherwise offensive in that way. I just meant, not holding back, unrestrained and hyper attentive in its casting, writing, character development and philosophy.

I would love to hear what you consider "unrestrained casting". Which casting was unacceptably "woke", pray tell?

 

[StarDude]

Yeah I agree that moment was a bit forced, but it's still a real issue for that community that I think is worth addressing in at least one scene in an episode of modern Trek. And it's also worthwhile to show just how simple an adjustment that was for the crew. And that it's not something worth throwing a fit over.

Yeah it's why I don't really complain about it. It just illustrates a common strategy Trek has used. Humans -> Got over that garbage a long time ago! Alien Society -> Lets explore it! (If the parent company will allow it...).

 

[DParga21]

I never claimed that there were no messages in TOS. Please reread. And try not to cherry-pick one thing from my post but do look at the whole message.

Nevertheless I don't expect many of you to agree with my point of you.

It's not even really a question of agreement as it is just factual evidence. For instance, you mentioned DC Fontana as one of the writers who weren't "obsessed", bit she absolutely was, partly because she was a victim of institutionalized sexism. And Roddenberry was also very obsessed with that stuff. As was Ellison.
And Star Trek was quite controversial in its time. The network insisted, for instance, that Kirk's eyes be open when he kissed Uhura, lest anyone get offended. Roddenberry was told to either ditch the Satanic Spock or the female second in command. Because a woman in command was just as offensive a the devil himself.
It's just not factually accurate to say Star Trek didn't used to be so woke.

 

[afrog]

It's not even really a question of agreement as it is just factual evidence.

OK then, we've reached nonstarter status.

By the way, where's the beef... I mean, Kirk?

 

[Pauln6a]

Yeah I agree that moment was a bit forced, but it's still a real issue for that community that I think is worth addressing in at least one scene in an episode of modern Trek. And it's also worthwhile to show just how simple an adjustment that was for the crew. And that it's not something worth throwing a fit over.

Yeah, I think the mistake was Adira feeling any requirement to justify the need to address them as they/them, quite apart from the fact that they were literally a they/them in any event. Janeway had to do it too mind you. We also all managed to get our heads around "Mister Saavik" without too much furore, although it confused me as a 12 year old.

I think it is not the issues themselves but the heavy-handed way they are introduced that rankles sometimes because it's like nails on a blackboard. Russell T Davies winds me up when he does this too in his Dr Who. Two Victorian women who were quite over-friendly had you think oh, OK, I can see something is going on between these two, but then one climbs on top of the other and they start kissing and they practically turn to the camera and shout "Yes we are lesbian lovers," and all I am thinking is, yes, I got that the first time, you have 45 minutes to tell a story and you wasted 3 of them repeatedly stressing the sexuality of two bit part characters - keep it moving, Russell.

Context is king, I think. I think Stamets and Culber are great when their relationship is all about Stamets being a work-obsessed socially awkward nerd and Culber is the emotionally stable, sensible one, and how Tilly and Stamets bonded as socially awkward nerds.

What Discovery didn't need to do was push Tilly into a role she wasn't suited for and impky that if she doesn't succeed in thst unsuitable role she'sa failure, and then promote her into a role she wasn't qualified for, and then say didn't she do well everyone, and them smiling vacantly, while thinking, "Nielsson should have got that job, but she wasn't friends with the command crew."

Maybe that's it - you have write for the people, not the issue. I want Star Trek to be woke, I just don't want to cringe when I feel like it's the actor or the writer talking directly to the audience, rather than the characters talking to each other.

Unless it's She Hulk or Deadpool.