INCEPTION Discussion Thread (***Spoilers!!!***)

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It doesnt matter either way, because the point of the scene is Cobb accepting what he has, and does not want more. He accepts his wife is dead, he accepts this is his reality, he accepts life. And appreciates it.
 
Psst, his name is Chris Nolan.

:lol

:doh

How long have I been saying "Noland"? :gah:



Ellen saw the kids in person, she knows about Mal, the only one who does. She has every reason to want to help Cobb, she knows its killing him, she sees it firsthand in Limbo. She knows all he wants is his kids. And she knows Cobb can't build himself anymore. It makes complete and perfect sense. All she has to do is build the situation and let Cobb project whatever life/people he wants into it.

It may make sense to you, but it is still purely speculative. You are describing something that is never even hinted at in the movie.

There are arguments that the whole movie is a dream, with explanations for why they believe that, but those too are without tangible basis.




Actually Chris says he just doesn't care.

The entire quote is: "I choose to believe that Cobb gets back to his kids, because I have young kids. People who have kids definitely read it differently than those who don't". He indicated that the top was not the most crucial element of the ending, saying "I've read plenty of very off-the-wall interpretations... The most important emotional thing about the top spinning at the end is that Cobb is not looking at it. He doesn't care"


Two main points there:

1) He (Nolan) prefers to believe the ending is reality. (Although he's not saying you must believe that.)

2) Cobb intentionally walks away from the top before it can fall or prove to spin indefinitely.


In my opinion, (assuming that the fact the kids are older and dressed differently isn’t enough to convince someone) the crux of understanding the ending is determining Cobb’s motives in that last scene. (Eff it, I'm just ending up retyping all my thoughts anyway! :panic:)


4 possibilities:

1) Cobb firmly believes he is in reality and is correct.
2) Cobb firmly believes he is in reality and is INcorrect.
3) Cobb is unsure whether he is dreaming, and doesn’t care either way. He’s just happy that he can finally see his kids.
4) The whole movie was a dream, there is no such thing as shared dreaming, and tops spinning is a red herring.

Let me just say that I am dismissing option #4 out of hand. That argument could be made about every movie ever made.

Option #2 would be a crushingly depressing ending because it would mean that Cobb returns to find the top still spinning, meaning that he was wrong. This is not real, these are not my kids, and all that swelling beautiful music was a load of crap!

Option #3 feels totally counterintuitive to me. Say he spun the top and then thought: "You know, I’m just glad I’m here. Regardless of the truth, I accept this as my reality.” The logical thing for him to do would be to stop the top from spinning. Even better, he could stop it from spinning and then hide it away like his wife had done in limbo.

For me Option #1 is the only one that makes sense.

He spins the top because it’s a deeply ingrained habit. For years he has doubted that reality is reality. As my old posts say, this is related to the guilt he feels for his wife’s death. Now that he has forgiven himself, letting go of guilt, the doubt has also fallen away. When he sees his children turn and call for him he realizes this completely. He no longer cares about entertaining his old doubts and habits. He abandons those old doubts so completely that he doesn’t even need to wait to see if the top falls. His kids are more important, so he goes to them. Later he returns to make his children peanut butter sandwiches, and there it lies on its side just as he knew it would be.

Again, Nolan says: “The most important emotional thing about the top spinning at the end is that Cobb is not looking at it. He doesn't care." He doesn’t say, “Cobb doesn’t care whether he’s dreaming or not." Rather Cobb doesn’t care about the top anymore. He doesn’t need it. He’s through with shared dreaming. He is ready to stay right hear in the real world with his living family.

Why does Nolan cut the scene before the top falls? Because we are given the privilege of expressing the same faith that Cobb now has. We can choose to complete the journey with him, or we can continue to wonder what is real.


I choose to believe, and I thank Nolan for giving me that choice.

It's worth noting another thing: It is incontrovertible that the top wobbles at the end before the scene is cut. In the scenes where we see the top spin indefinitely (for example: in limbo with Saito) it doesn’t even show as much as a hitch. The shake that we see before the film cuts to black is the signal of inevitability. The top WILL fall.
 
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Cobb doesn’t care whether he’s dreaming or not. Rather Cobb doesn’t care about the top anymore. He doesn’t need it. He’s through with shared dreaming. He is ready to stay right hear in the real world with his living family

This is the answer. I've been saying it since it came out.
 
This is the answer. I've been saying it since it came out.

Go back and read what you quoted:

Again, Nolan says: “The most important emotional thing about the top spinning at the end is that Cobb is not looking at it. He doesn't care." He doesn’t say, “Cobb doesn’t care whether he’s dreaming or not." Rather Cobb doesn’t care about the top anymore. He doesn’t need it. He’s through with shared dreaming. He is ready to stay right hear in the real world with his living family.

I missed one of my quotation marks before, so maybe that's why you misunderstood.
 
4 possibilities:

1) Cobb firmly believes he is in reality and is correct.
2) Cobb firmly believes he is in reality and is INcorrect.
3) Cobb is unsure whether he is dreaming, and doesn’t care either way. He’s just happy that he can finally see his kids.
4) The whole movie was a dream, there is no such thing as shared dreaming, and tops spinning is a red herring.

Let me just say that I am dismissing option #4 out of hand. That argument could be made about every movie ever made.

Option #2 would be a crushingly depressing ending because it would mean that Cobb returns to find the top still spinning, meaning that he was wrong. This is not real, these are not my kids, and all that swelling beautiful music was a load of crap!

Option #3 feels totally counterintuitive to me. Say he spun the top and then thought: "You know, I’m just glad I’m here. Regardless of the truth, I accept this as my reality.” The logical thing for him to do would be to stop the top from spinning. Even better, he could stop it from spinning and then hide it away like his wife had done in limbo.

For me Option #1 is the only one that makes sense.

He spins the top because it’s a deeply ingrained habit. For years he has doubted that reality is reality. As my old posts say, this is related to the guilt he feels for his wife’s death. Now that he has forgiven himself, letting go of guilt, the doubt has also fallen away. When he sees his children turn and call for him he realizes this completely. He no longer cares about entertaining his old doubts and habits. He abandons those old doubts so completely that he doesn’t even need to wait to see if the top falls. His kids are more important, so he goes to them. Later he returns to make his children peanut butter sandwiches, and there it lies on its side just as he knew it would be.

Actually no.

This point is often missed, and it's important. Your totem only tells you if you're in someone else's dream.

Dom states this to Juno (forget her name lol). He doesn't say totem's help a person tell if they're in reality or if they're dreaming. He clearly states that the purpose of a totem is to help a person tell if they're in the real world or if they're in someone else's dream.

Every single dream sequence in the film (minus the ending scene) where Dom uses the totem and it spins indefinitely is a shared dream i.e. not Dom's individual dream.

You never see an individual dream and see a person using their totem in their own dream so there's no basis to declare that totem's act the same in your own dream like they do when you're in someone else's dream.

So the only proof of their use is stated by Dom. And again, he clearly states that the purpose of a totem is to help a person tell if they're in the real world or if they're in someone else's dream.

So for your Option #2, if it's Dom's dream the top WOULD stop spinning and fall over. But that is NOT proof that he's in the real world. It's only proof that Dom isn't in someone else's dream. That's it. And I believe he isn't. I believe he's in his own dream, of his own creation.

It's mentioned numerous times throughout the film that Dom was once a great architect (both in real life and in dreams) and capable of creating vast landscapes. And you can even see evidence of his work i.e. creating huge amounts of architecture from memory (real places) for Mal to inhabit. The reason he stopped is because of his subconscious projection of Mal. After the last scene between the two, when he finally forgives himself and lets her memory go it would be perfectly logical that he would then regain that ability to recreate the airplane, to recreate (or even just create) an airport and to recreate his home which we see in the film he's already done before.

Now about his wedding ring.

The theory is every scene we see Dom wearing a wedding ring is a dream and every scene when he's not wearing one is the real world.

Two things.

1. This actually isn't true, because in the scenes that are supposed to be flashbacks we see Dom wearing his ring. So are those moments from dreams as well!? Just saying.

2. People who use this theory point out that Dom isn't wearing his wedding ring in the final scenes of the movie i.e. that's proof that the final scenes are indeed in the real world.

And actually that's not true.

His "wedding ring" isn't real. It's a projection of his subconscious in dreams. And that's because in his dreams, subconsciously he's still holding onto Mal. Like a prisoner. When he finally let's her go and clears his conscious/subconscious of his memory of her that projection of his wedding ring is no longer necessary.

It's interesting to note, in the "beginning scene" which is actually the second to last sequence, when Dom is sitting at the table eating with Saito there's two clear and deliberate shots of his hand with the wedding ring. Yet, from the time Saito reminds Cob of who he is and why he's there you never see another shot of his wedding ring. Because IMO, once he becomes aware of who he is and is no longer amnesiac (I guess that would be a good description) his projection of wedding ring would disappear since he no longer needs it in his dreams.

Now about his kids.

The main points I see regarding the kids are their clothing, their age and the fact that Dom only sees their faces at the end. So that must mean it's real.

I disagree.

Their clothing is irrelevant. We see Mal (whose part of Dom's subconscious) throughout the film in different clothing. So whether or not the kids at the end are wearing the same clothes, similar clothes or even completely different clothes is irrelevant.

Their age is also irrelevant because they look almost exactly the same. And like I said before, without info outside of the movie it would be impossible for anyone to prove within the realm of the movie differently. Because there is no definitive proof.

Lastly their faces. This is interesting because at one point (while in a dream) Mal calls to their daughter and right when she's about to turn Cobb turns away and puts his hands over his face in shame. IMO this is because it's Cobb who can't face his children since he feels guilty and blames himself for the mother of his children being dead. It's not because he can't imagine/remember his kids faces. As a father myself it doesn't matter if the last time I saw my son he was facing away from me, whether in a dream or awake and just in my imagination I could easily remember and picture his face clearly. Even years after the fact. The reason Cobb never sees his kids faces in dreams is because he can't bear to look them in the eyes. But AFTER he forgives himself and lets Mal go, then and only then can he face them.

And the ending might seem happy with his kids and being free but it goes back to what Cobb said earlier in the film when the team is preparing for Fischer Jr.s Inception about positive emotion and that we all learn through reconciliation, for catharsis.

Well what happens at the end of the film? He confesses to Mal (actually himself) about planting the idea that eventually lead to her death and he finally makes peace with himself/cleanses his soul. He meets up with Saito in limbo and again when he "wakes up". His stateside troubles disappear once and for all. And finally he sees his children again. ALL examples of positive emotion, reconciliation & catharsis.


Sorry for the essay. :monkey3
 
^ That's all true, but i'm still in the camp it doesnt matter if he's dreaming or not. It can go either way, but i'm happy if he's happy.
 
True. That's all he ever wanted, was to be with his kids again and be happy. Which he is at the end. So regardless if it's a dream or reality.. he's finally at peace and happy.
 
Yep. People seem to get tied up to the fact that "IF IT'S NOT REAL! ITS HORRIBLELY SAD!"

No....remember that line with the old man? "Who are you to say otherwise?
 
@ Devil_666: Don't worry about writting an essay. I've written several in here. And like you said, that's part of the fun with a movie like this.

I will reply tomorrow. :)



^ That's all true, but i'm still in the camp it doesnt matter if he's dreaming or not. It can go either way, but i'm happy if he's happy.

True. That's all he ever wanted, was to be with his kids again and be happy. Which he is at the end. So regardless if it's a dream or reality.. he's finally at peace and happy.


What about my analasis of Option #3 [Cobb is unsure whether he is dreaming, and doesn’t care either way. He’s just happy that he can finally see his kids]?:

Option #3 feels totally counterintuitive to me. Say he spun the top and then thought: "You know, I’m just glad I’m here. Regardless of the truth, I accept this as my reality.” The logical thing for him to do would be to stop the top from spinning. Even better, he could stop it from spinning and then hide it away like his wife had done in limbo.


If he really didn't care if he was dreaming or not, wouldn't it make sense for him to stop the top from spinning? :huh

Maybe a better question would be, if he would be equally happy with it being a dream as if it were reality, why would he bother spinning it at all? :huh



Yep. People seem to get tied up to the fact that "IF IT'S NOT REAL! ITS HORRIBLELY SAD!"

If Cobb believes and wants it to be real, and comes back to see the top still spinning, that would be crushingly sad. Period.



No....remember that line with the old man? "Who are you to say otherwise?

This brings up another key argument for why I believe the end is real:

Shared (or artificial) dreaming is NEVER put in a good light in the movie. For Cobb it is a drug. He has been doing it so long that it's the only way he can dream. Do you know how Heroin works? Do you know why it's called "dope"? Because it releases huge amounts of dopamine into your system which gives you the euphoric feeling. Problem is, that repeated use of dope makes your body's natural ability to produce dopamine disappears. That's what causes the withdrawal. Cobb needs his fix, just like all those people in the Chemist's shop basement. Am I the only one that thinks that basement looks like an opium den? Am I the only one that notices that to take part in artificial dreaming you have to stick a needle in your vein?


When the old man says: "Who are you to say otherwise?" That's the voice of a dealer. It's the voice of the devil. When he says that, it makes me feel physically sick.



In the end Cobb rejects that notion completely. The dream IS NOT real. Cobb doesn't need the false reality, because he has accepted true reality. He doesn't need to believe that maybe his wife really is alive and he's still in a dream because he has let her go. He does not need the dream to see his old memories because he has finally processed those memories in a healthy way.
 
If he really didn't care if he was dreaming or not, wouldn't it make sense for him to stop the top from spinning? :huh

Maybe a better question would be, if he would be equally happy with it being a dream as if it were reality, why would he bother spinning it at all? :huh

If Cobb believes and wants it to be real, and comes back to see the top still spinning, that would be crushingly sad. Period.

My response is in my ginormous essay. :lol

But in short: Totem's don't work in your own dreams. Subconsciously Cobb knows this (he's the one who told everyone else about Totem's). He does it out of habit because that's how you can tell if you're in someone else's dream. But it doesn't tell you if you're dreaming in your own dream. Cobb knows this. Which is why he spins it, he knows it'll fall, that's why he doesn't bother to watch it.

When the old man says: "Who are you to say otherwise?" That's the voice of a dealer. It's the voice of the devil. When he says that, it makes me feel physically sick.

:dunno

Sorry but I didn't see it/take it that way at all. I mean not even remotely. You mentioned that basement looking like an "Opium Den" but to me it looked more like a hospice. And as far as what the old dude says, Yusif asks Cobb about dreaming and Cobb reveals that after numerous "Inception" style dream trips eventually it becomes the only way people can dream.

This doesn't necessarily mean people stop dreaming all together, it could also simply mean once people dream like that and experience that level of control and creativity to build worlds and change them and inhabit them that "normal" dreaming doesn't compare.

Then the other dude (whatever his name is!?) asks "They come here to dream!?" the old dude responds "No. They come here to wake up. The dream has become their reality." THEN he says that line to Cobb. And I took it like:

1. Don't judge when you do it yourself and..

2. Reality is a perception. The only thing that separates a "sane" person's reality from an "insane" person's reality is that more people agree with the "sane" person's perception of reality. If it were suddenly the opposite, all "sane" people would be the crackpots. :lol

The dream IS NOT real.

The tag line for the movie disagrees. :nana:

Two camps:

It's a dream and Two-face is still alive.

It's reality and Two-face is dead.

I think it's a dream AND that Two-Face is dead. So I guess I have no camp. :(
 
37728a.jpg
 
I'm in the process of composing a response to your essay Devil. :)


It's not sad if he's happy. Period.

I agree, but that's a big if.


My argument is that if he comes back to a spinning top he WILL NOT be happy. If dream and reality were all just as good to him, I believe he:

1) Would have stopped the top.
2) Wouldn't have spun it in the first place.
 
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