INCEPTION Discussion Thread (***Spoilers!!!***)

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ps: The top is Mal's totem not Cobb's.

Doesn't really matter. Cobb started using it after she died, so it's his now.

I'm in the process of composing a response to your essay Devil. :)

Cool, looking forward to it.

My argument is that if he comes back to a spinning top he WILL NOT be happy. If dream and reality were all just as good to him, I believe he:

1) Would have stopped the top.
2) Wouldn't have spun it in the first place.

Like I said, totem's don't work in your own dreams. So the top WILL stop and fall over. So there's no need for him to stop it once it starts spinning and no reason to not spin it since subconsciously he KNOWS it won't spin indefinitely because that only happens when you're in someone else's dream.

More points that add credence to the ending being Cobb's dream:

Where's Cobb's mother-in-law at the end of the movie!?

Who was watching Cobb's kids at the end of the movie!?

Mal's parents moved into Mal and Cobb's house!?

Early in the film there's a deliberate scene that sets up a clear and distinct divide between Cobb and his mother-in-law. Not only does she not want to talk to him when he asks his daughter to put her on, but she also tells both kids that Cobb will never be back AND she abruptly ends the phone call and hangs up on Cobb while he's in mid-sentence.

It's obvious she does not like him and has a lot of animosity towards him (probably believing he killed her daughter).

Yet, at the end of the film Michael Caine picks up Cobb from the airport and when they arrive at Cobb's house his kids are just playing in the backyard by themselves. No supervision. No mother-in-law. No one else in sight. So what, Michael Caine just left them there alone while he picked up Cobb from the airport!?

Michael Caine also lives in Paris where he teaches, so for the most part the mother-in-law and the children live at Mal and Cobb's old home. That in and of itself makes absolutely no sense to me. Why would Mal's mother agree to move into the house that was owned by her deceased daughter and the man SHE believes murdered her!?

It really only makes sense for Cobb: He obviously has an attachment to that house since it's shown numerous times in his memories/dreams and it's also where the final scene between him and Mal takes place. So if the ending is a dream, Cobb's dream, it WOULD make sense for him to return there to find his children waiting AND to not see his mother-in-law around. After having ALL charges dropped with Saito's help. Perfect happy ending. Dreamy.

The house looks exactly the same too.
 
Great points bud, and that must be one hell of an interesting dirt patch for those kids to be out there everyday in the same spot, facing the same direction just waiting to run to daddy's arms. They must also follow a Doug like pattern of wearing only clothes that look exactly alike.
 
It was the grandmother who was watching the kids. Her husband was Michael Caine. He makes trips back to america every once in a while.

And their cloths werent the same Deck.
 
I know thats my point, not exactly, but same general outfit, short white shirt with red plaid pattern, short khakis.
 
Wouldn't you just bring the kids to the airport if it had really been that long and he was cleared of the murder? Call me crazy but if Michael Caine is waiting for him, surely the kids could have.
 
That can actually be explained: No way for Cobb to know for sure if Saito would or even could keep his word. Last thing you want is for your kids to see you arrested and carted off.

So I can understand the kids not being there.

But everything else about that ending scene doesn't make sense if it's supposed to be real. At least to me.
 
Well here's the thing, it was done that way. For this reason. If they threw everything in there, like the Grandma, and the kids sitting at a table and all that, the ending would be very final, and very....well...yeah.

So it CAN go both ways. It's not impossible to suggest that ol Grandma was laying a nice juicy BM when Cobb got home. It's not impossible to suggest that the kids just ____ing love dirt, so they just want to play in it. I'm on the computer right now. What if someone was here, and they left, and i'm still on the computer 2 years later.

Doesnt mean I was there for 2 years, just means I was doing something at that time in the same place.


And at the same time, that agrument can be reversed. LOVE THIS MOVIE. :D
 
I'm in the "real" ending camp, and I'll admit there are some aspects of the end that are a tad off, but I write it off to Nolan taking some dramatic and artistic license with the logistics of the ending.
 
More points that add credence to the ending being Cobb's dream:

Where's Cobb's mother-in-law at the end of the movie!?

Who was watching Cobb's kids at the end of the movie!?

Mal's parents moved into Mal and Cobb's house!?

Early in the film there's a deliberate scene that sets up a clear and distinct divide between Cobb and his mother-in-law. Not only does she not want to talk to him when he asks his daughter to put her on, but she also tells both kids that Cobb will never be back AND she abruptly ends the phone call and hangs up on Cobb while he's in mid-sentence.

It's obvious she does not like him and has a lot of animosity towards him (probably believing he killed her daughter).

Yet, at the end of the film Michael Caine picks up Cobb from the airport and when they arrive at Cobb's house his kids are just playing in the backyard by themselves. No supervision. No mother-in-law. No one else in sight. So what, Michael Caine just left them there alone while he picked up Cobb from the airport!?

Michael Caine also lives in Paris where he teaches, so for the most part the mother-in-law and the children live at Mal and Cobb's old home. That in and of itself makes absolutely no sense to me. Why would Mal's mother agree to move into the house that was owned by her deceased daughter and the man SHE believes murdered her!?

It really only makes sense for Cobb: He obviously has an attachment to that house since it's shown numerous times in his memories/dreams and it's also where the final scene between him and Mal takes place. So if the ending is a dream, Cobb's dream, it WOULD make sense for him to return there to find his children waiting AND to not see his mother-in-law around. After having ALL charges dropped with Saito's help. Perfect happy ending. Dreamy.

The house looks exactly the same too.


Interesting points Dev, but Nolan filmed it that way to make it possible to interpret it both ways. It doesn't truly support either argument.


Like the guys say:



Well here's the thing, it was done that way. For this reason. If they threw everything in there, like the Grandma, and the kids sitting at a table and all that, the ending would be very final, and very....well...yeah.

So it CAN go both ways. It's not impossible to suggest that ol Grandma was laying a nice juicy BM when Cobb got home. It's not impossible to suggest that the kids just ____ing love dirt, so they just want to play in it. I'm on the computer right now. What if someone was here, and they left, and i'm still on the computer 2 years later.

Doesnt mean I was there for 2 years, just means I was doing something at that time in the same place.


And at the same time, that agrument can be reversed. LOVE THIS MOVIE. :D

I'm in the "real" ending camp, and I'll admit there are some aspects of the end that are a tad off, but I write it off to Nolan taking some dramatic and artistic license with the logistics of the ending.

:exactly:
 
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@ Devil_666 - First, let me say that it is refreshing to see a different take on the “ending is a dream” theory. That being that he was the architect of his own final dream. It’s definitely the most appealing argument I have seen for it. And it also made me think harder than any other such theory. For that I thank you. :)


Before getting to the meaty part of your post, I will begin by addressing some of your secondary points.


About his wedding ring.

The theory is every scene we see Dom wearing a wedding ring is a dream and every scene when he's not wearing one is the real world.

Two things.

1. This actually isn't true, because in the scenes that are supposed to be flashbacks we see Dom wearing his ring. So are those moments from dreams as well!? Just saying.


Well, during those scenes he actually is married. So of course he would be wearing his ring. Not really worth mentioning… Just saying. ;)


2. People who use this theory point out that Dom isn't wearing his wedding ring in the final scenes of the movie i.e. that's proof that the final scenes are indeed in the real world.

And actually that's not true.

His "wedding ring" isn't real. It's a projection of his subconscious in dreams. And that's because in his dreams, subconsciously he's still holding onto Mal. Like a prisoner. When he finally let's her go and clears his conscious/subconscious of his memory of her that projection of his wedding ring is no longer necessary.


I actually fully agree with this. I have made the point at least once in this thread (and many times when talking with friends) that, although it is interesting that he is wearing his ring in dreams but not at the end, it’s doesn’t hold much real water for proving the end is real for the very reason you just stated.



Now about his kids.

The main points I see regarding the kids are their clothing, their age and the fact that Dom only sees their faces at the end. So that must mean it's real.

I disagree.

Their clothing is irrelevant. We see Mal (whose part of Dom's subconscious) throughout the film in different clothing. So whether or not the kids at the end are wearing the same clothes, similar clothes or even completely different clothes is irrelevant.


I can see why you would say that the clothes are unimportant, but it was clearly a very intentional decision to have them wear the same clothes throughout except for the very last scene. Therefore, while admittedly a minor point, it still does help the argument for a real ending.



Their age is also irrelevant because they look almost exactly the same. And like I said before, without info outside of the movie it would be impossible for anyone to prove within the realm of the movie differently. Because there is no definitive proof.


I disagree. And as I said before, one wouldn’t need IMDB and ending credits to see that the kids are different and older. Yes the difference was intentionally subtle to leave room for doubt and the kind of speculation you are sharing, but as these screen caps show, the untrained eye can easily see that the kids are different and older.

Kids%2BComparison%2B1.jpg


If nothing else, that girl is a lot taller. “Impossible for anyone to prove within the realm of the movie differently” is a very bold statement. But even if that were true, are you suggesting that the reason they cast different, older kids at the end was random or accidental? Like the different clothes, it was a very intentional decision that Nolan wouldn’t have put on screen if it wasn’t for a reason. And he knows that we live in the age of IMDB.


Lastly their faces. This is interesting because at one point (while in a dream) Mal calls to their daughter and right when she's about to turn Cobb turns away and puts his hands over his face in shame. IMO this is because it's Cobb who can't face his children since he feels guilty and blames himself for the mother of his children being dead. It's not because he can't imagine/remember his kids faces. As a father myself it doesn't matter if the last time I saw my son he was facing away from me, whether in a dream or awake and just in my imagination I could easily remember and picture his face clearly. Even years after the fact. The reason Cobb never sees his kids faces in dreams is because he can't bear to look them in the eyes. But AFTER he forgives himself and lets Mal go, then and only then can he face them.


A compelling argument, but one that relies heavily on the assumption that Cobb is feeling shame when he turns away and puts his hands over his face. I’ve seen the movie 3 times and I never got that vibe from that scene. I have the shooting script, so I could check and see if Nolan calls for a specific emotion here. Could you remind me of when that happens?



Well what happens at the end of the film? He confesses to Mal (actually himself) about planting the idea that eventually lead to her death and he finally makes peace with himself/cleanses his soul. He meets up with Saito in limbo and again when he "wakes up". His stateside troubles disappear once and for all. And finally he sees his children again. ALL examples of positive emotion, reconciliation & catharsis.


I actually agree with all of that. It fully fits into my take on Cobb and his character arc. Take the quotation marks off of “wakes up” and that describes much of why I think the ending is so powerful.


However, that is not the only positive I get out of the ending.


I love the ending because:

1) Cobb finds redemption, reconciliation & catharsis.
2) When Cobb lets go of guilt (through said catharsis) it allows him to also let go of doubt.
3) Cutting the scene before the top falls lets us make a choice to either continue to doubt what is real, or like Cobb fully commit to the “leap of faith.





I realize that I have not addressed the most important part of your post about the ending being a dream of Cobb's making.


I will soon.

Gonna quote it here for quick reference:


This point is often missed, and it's important. Your totem only tells you if you're in someone else's dream.

Dom states this to Juno (forget her name lol). He doesn't say totem's help a person tell if they're in reality or if they're dreaming. He clearly states that the purpose of a totem is to help a person tell if they're in the real world or if they're in someone else's dream.

Every single dream sequence in the film (minus the ending scene) where Dom uses the totem and it spins indefinitely is a shared dream i.e. not Dom's individual dream.

You never see an individual dream and see a person using their totem in their own dream so there's no basis to declare that totem's act the same in your own dream like they do when you're in someone else's dream.

So the only proof of their use is stated by Dom. And again, he clearly states that the purpose of a totem is to help a person tell if they're in the real world or if they're in someone else's dream.

So for your Option #2, if it's Dom's dream the top WOULD stop spinning and fall over. But that is NOT proof that he's in the real world. It's only proof that Dom isn't in someone else's dream. That's it. And I believe he isn't. I believe he's in his own dream, of his own creation.

It's mentioned numerous times throughout the film that Dom was once a great architect (both in real life and in dreams) and capable of creating vast landscapes. And you can even see evidence of his work i.e. creating huge amounts of architecture from memory (real places) for Mal to inhabit. The reason he stopped is because of his subconscious projection of Mal. After the last scene between the two, when he finally forgives himself and lets her memory go it would be perfectly logical that he would then regain that ability to recreate the airplane, to recreate (or even just create) an airport and to recreate his home which we see in the film he's already done before.
 
Well, during those scenes he actually is married. So of course he would be wearing his ring.

But how do you know those scenes are real and not dreams? That's what I was trying to say. When Cobb tells the story of him and his wife killing themselves on the train tracks in limbo to wake up you see two different versions of that scene; one where they're young and one where they're old. So which is right!? Cobb isn't a reliable narrator.

but as these screen caps show

But that's what I'm talking about right there. I consider that kind of info as outside of the film because there's no side by side screen caps IN the movie to visually compare. Just going off of what we see in the film, the age/visual difference isn't obvious. I know that's deliberate too. And I know all that info can be found outside of the actual film.. but that's kinda cheating when discussing/debating what happens IN the film IMO.

A compelling argument, but one that relies heavily on the assumption that Cobb is feeling shame when he turns away and puts his hands over his face. I’ve seen the movie 3 times and I never got that vibe from that scene.

I can't think of any other reason why Cobb would immediately turn away, close his eyes tight and cover his face with both his hands before his "daughter" was about to look at him. I think he even says "NO" while doing that. Shame is the only thing that makes sense to me. That's usually why people cover their faces. Shame, guilt. No?
 
Actually, if you watch it more then once, which is a requirement, you DO notice the wedding band, the kids, all that. It's not a movie you view once and move on. Some people did, but that's not right. You need to see it more then once.
 
I can't think of any other reason why Cobb would immediately turn away, close his eyes tight and cover his face with both his hands before his "daughter" was about to look at him. I think he even says "NO" while doing that. Shame is the only thing that makes sense to me. That's usually why people cover their faces. Shame, guilt. No?

Also, you're correct. He's guilty of leaving them. He's guilty of doing this, and having to pay for it. He doesnt look at the kids because he wants to see his REAL kids. Because he ____ed up. And he doesnt want that memory, he wants the real thing.

Once he lets go of Mal, he is able to realize the most important thing....he needs to appreciate what he has, and not try and hold on to something. He realizes that his reality, is what he chooses it to be. If he is in a dream, he doesnt care. He will accept his reality.

Who are you to say otherwise Mag? :monkey1
 
When Cobb tells the story of him and his wife killing themselves on the train tracks in limbo to wake up you see two different versions of that scene; one where they're young and one where they're old. So which is right!? Cobb isn't a reliable narrator.

Maybe both are right. It’s a matter of perspective. As Cobb talks to Mal he helps her realize (at the same time revealing to us) that they did in fact grow old together, at least in a sense. Showing them old and wrinkly is a way to visually convey that idea. The way that is all conveyed on screen is simply an effective storytelling device.

Another thought: who’s to say how someone truly looks in limbo? Do they show their actual age? Does it switch back and forth? Were their hands supple or wrinkly when they lay on the train tracks? It doesn’t matter. And there may not be one true answer.

And if it does mean that he is an unreliable narrator, what then? What does that prove? What are you relating that to?


But that's what I'm talking about right there. I consider that kind of info as outside of the film because there's no side by side screen caps IN the movie to visually compare. Just going off of what we see in the film, the age/visual difference isn't obvious. I know that's deliberate too. And I know all that info can be found outside of the actual film.. but that's kinda cheating when discussing/debating what happens IN the film IMO.

I can see why you are resistant to this, but I’m sorry; the evidence is internal evidence no matter how uncomfortable that makes you. Careful viewing would make a side-by-side screen cap unnecessary. Sure it would help to have a photographic memory, but it’s there for all to see. Plain and simple.

Again, they would not have cast different kids if there weren’t an important reason for doing so.

It’s not like a stunt double that is supposed to fool the audience into thinking they are seeing a different cast member. Rather, different kids were cast for the end with the intent of accurately telling the story. The kids would be 2 years older in the real world, therefore older kids needed to be cast for the end scene.

I can't think of any other reason why Cobb would immediately turn away, close his eyes tight and cover his face with both his hands before his "daughter" was about to look at him. I think he even says "NO" while doing that. Shame is the only thing that makes sense to me. That's usually why people cover their faces. Shame, guilt. No?

Again, could you direct me to which part of the movie that is? You saw it more recently than me, and I want to re-watch that scene and check it in the shooting script before commenting further.


P.S. Still waiting on the big reply. Better to take this a little at a time.
 
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If he is in a dream, he doesnt care. He will accept his reality.

Nolan never said that Cobb doesn't care whether he is in a dream. He said he doesn't care about the top.


Who are you to say otherwise Mag? :monkey1

Can we leave that kind of thing out of this discussion please?


I think you are wrong. Who are you to say otherwise. If we cant disagree in a civil and respectful way, I'd rather not have the discussion at all.
 
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