INCEPTION Discussion Thread (***Spoilers!!!***)

[CelticPredator]

During the final scene with Mal, she calls for them to come over, and Cobb shuts his eyes.

 

[Devil_666]

That's easily the most ridiculous thing I have heard in this thread. But I don't want to get ahead of myself...

Then blame yourself for bringing it up. Durrr...

Wasn't something I offered up or made a point of.

 

[Maglor]

Anyway, I'm very nearly finished with my final response. Just finishing up getting together accurate quotes.

 

[Devil_666]

The point about the totems only working in others dreams shouldn't be brought up because the top is not Cobb's totem it's Mal's and he used it against her as part of his inception on her and he uses it himself as well after her death so it'll clearly work it's just a matter of someone knowing how it works.

Not sure what you mean!? The point I'm making about totem's is: They DO work. But only when you're in someone else's dream that doesn't know how they're supposed to work i.e. they're useless in your own dreams since YOU know how they're supposed to work/not work.

If your totem was like a little bear that said "Mama" when you pressed its belly and I had never handled it/used it, if we were in a shared dream there's no way I could replicate your totem accurately.

So you would immediately know if you were in someone else's dream simply by using your totem; if wouldn't feel the same, it wouldn't say "Mama" when you pressed its belly, etc. So that would clue you in on the fact that it was a dream.

But in your OWN dream, it wouldn't be the same. Your totem WOULD feel exactly the same. Your totem WOULD say "Mama" when you pressed its belly. Because YOU know how it works, its every detail and secret.

So in your own dream, you could make your totem act like it would in the real world i.e. you COULD trick yourself into thinking you weren't in a dream.

Again, that's only regarding your totem in your own dream.

 

[Devil_666]

You posted the wiki-link to Occam's Razor.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor

 

[wofford29]

Not sure what you mean!? The point I'm making about totem's is: They DO work. But only when you're in someone else's dream that doesn't know how they're supposed to work i.e. they're useless in your own dreams since YOU know how they're supposed to work/not work.

If your totem was like a little bear that said "Mama" when you pressed its belly and I had never handled it/used it, if we were in a shared dream there's no way I could replicate your totem accurately.

So you would immediately know if you were in someone else's dream simply by using your totem; if wouldn't feel the same, it wouldn't say "Mama" when you pressed its belly, etc. So that would clue you in on the fact that it was a dream.

But in your OWN dream, it wouldn't be the same. Your totem WOULD feel exactly the same. Your totem WOULD say "Mama" when you pressed its belly. Because YOU know how it works, its every detail and secret.

So in your own dream, you could make your totem act like it would in the real world i.e. you COULD trick yourself into thinking you weren't in a dream.

Again, that's only regarding your totem in your own dream.

That's not the case though. It's Mal's totem and she and Cobb both know how it works and both use it in their shared dream. She decides to lock it away in her safe not spinning it so that she'll believe the limbo world is reality ("the truth she once knew and chose to forget") and Cobb uses inception on her and opens up her safe and spins the top so she'll remember their in a dream and they need to get out but the planting of the idea carried over into reality as well.

 

[Devil_666]

Cobb knows that the top will spin indefinitely in a dream. So it will. Because those scenes take place in limbo which is a shared conscious experience. That's why Mal locks it away. So she can forgot about it, and pretend that the dream is real. She can't make it stop spinning (like I'm suggesting Cobb could do in his own dream) because Limbo also has Cobb's presence in it (who knows the top should spin indefinitely in a dream).

Cobb finds her sub-conscious "safe" and spins the top (again, he KNOWS it's supposed to spin indefinitely) and that "suggestion" is the first instance of inception.

If Mal were in a dream by herself, she could definitely make the top stop spinning/spin indefinitely. Just like anyone in their own dream could manipulate their own totem which is why they're useless in your own dreams.

 

[wofford29]

You're losing me. If the totem works for Mal in her dream/reality and then once it becomes Cobb's totem and works in his dream/reality than obviously totem's work for anyone in any instance as long as said person knows how they work.

 

[Devil_666]

If the totem works for Mal in her dream/reality and then once it becomes Cobb's totem and works in his dream/reality than obviously totem's work for anyone in any instance as long as said person knows how they work.

No.

Mal's totem is a top. In the real world it spins and then eventually stops. In shared dreams it spins indefinitely.

When Cobb takes over the totem, it works exactly the same: In the real world it spins and then eventually stops. In shared dreams it spins indefinitely.

Totem's only work in shared dreams because their fundamental principle is that only the owner knows how they're supposed to work/not supposed to work and any details about them (weight, caliber, etc.).

Mal locked away her totem because in Limbo, with Cobb it would spin indefinitely and remind her that she was in a dream.

Cobb performs inception on Mal by finding her totem and spinning it, to make her remember that she was actually in a dream (since it spins indefinitely in her sub-conscious). Unfortunately that idea carries over into the real world leading to her death (since she believes the real world is just another dream).

Totem's are 100% worthless in your own solitary dreams. Because you KNOW how it's supposed to work/not work and since you're the architect/creator of your own dreams that creation also includes the projection of your totem. Which means you can make it do whatever you want in your own dream. If the ending is a dream Cobb COULD make a projection of his top that would spin and then eventually stop.

It's the same reason people with totem's never let anyone else handle them, because then those people could fool the owner of a totem in a shared dream by projecting a totem that would behave in a dream like it should in the real world i.e. making that totem owner believe they were awake and in reality.

Feel me?

 

[wofford29]

No.

Mal's totem is a top. In the real world it spins and then eventually stops. In shared dreams it spins indefinitely.

When Cobb takes over the totem, it works exactly the same: In the real world it spins and then eventually stops. In shared dreams it spins indefinitely.

Totem's only work in shared dreams because their fundamental principle is that only the owner knows how they're supposed to work/not supposed to work and any details about them (weight, caliber, etc.).
Mal locked away her totem because in Limbo, with Cobb it would spin indefinitely and remind her that she was in a dream.

Cobb performs inception on Mal by finding her totem and spinning it, to make her remember that she was actually in a dream (since it spins indefinitely in her sub-conscious). Unfortunately that idea carries over into the real world leading to her death (since she believes the real world is just another dream).

Totem's are 100% worthless in your own solitary dreams. Because you KNOW how it's supposed to work/not work and since you're the architect/creator of your own dreams that creation also includes the projection of your totem. Which means you can make it do whatever you want in your own dream. If the ending is a dream Cobb COULD make a projection of his top that would spin and then eventually stop.

It's the same reason people with totem's never let anyone else handle them, because then those people could fool the owner of a totem in a shared dream by projecting a totem that would behave in a dream like it should in the real world i.e. making that totem owner believe they were awake and in reality.

Feel me?

I feel you but what I've put in bold is what I'm saying. Cobb did know and at the time he was not the owner of the totem and if only Mal knows how it works Cobb wouldn't have known how to get to her.

 

[Devil_666]

Cobb did know and at the time he was not the owner of the totem and if only Mal knows how it works Cobb wouldn't have known how to get to her.

I think the confusion is one of two things:

1. You don't have to be the owner of a totem to fool someone in a shared dream. You just have to know exactly how someones totem works.

Let's say you own a totem that's a die loaded to always rolls a 6 in the real world. If you never reveal that detail to me, once me and you enter into a shared dream (that I create) even if I replicate your totem it won't function correctly i.e. it won't roll a 6 every time. So I couldn't fool you into believing our dream was actually the real world.

But if you TOLD ME that detail, then I COULD replicate your totem exactly and make it roll a 6 every time thus successfully fooling you.

2. If you're saying that Cobb didn't know either about Mal's totem all together or that he just didn't know how it worked then I disagree.

Cobb states that Mal is the one that came up with the whole idea of using totem's. They were married and shared everything. There would be no reason for her to keep that information from him, since she trusted him 100%.

Again, the whole reason for a totem is to make sure no one pulls a fast one over on you and makes you think you're in the real world when you're actually in a shared dream/limbo with someone else.

But if you're routinely entering into shared dreams/limbo with your spouse, who you trust without question, you really think you would STILL keep that information a secret!? Because I don't.

So Cobb knew about Mal's totem. And he also knew how it worked. And he knew all of this BEFORE he found it in the safe she put it in.

The reason Mal put her totem in that safe is because she wanted to forget that she was dreaming. And without that totem to remind her, she could forget. When Cobb searches for that "safe" which holds Mal's sub-conscious secrets he finds the top. By spinning it in that safe, that idea of "this is a dream" is implanted into Mal's sub-conscious. Completely different than if Cobb would've just took the totem and spun it in front of Mal in the dream world and said "See? Ya see?".

In reality since Mal and Cobb were a couple, even though the top is referred to as "Mal's totem" or "Cobb's totem" it was essentially "Their" totem. Because Cobb never comes up with his own personal totem while sharing dreams with Mal. They both used it. Even if Mal was the only one actually handling it in their dreams, they shared the benefits like any normal married couple would do. That's why when Mal dies Cobb continues using it.

 

[wofford29]

I do think Cobb knew about it, but that's what I'm saying. I understand all your points above and how it all works. What I'm saying is exactly what you put in #1. You kept saying earlier that totems would only work in someone elses dream and I'm saying that is not true if someone else knows about the totem it would work regardless. If Mal and Cobb were in Cobb's shared dream Mal's totem would work for her. If Mal and Cobb were in Mal's shared dream the totem would work for her. The totems work regardless of when or where, it's the knowledge of that totem that makes it "work."

 

[Devil_666]

Ok I think I got it now..

If Mal and Cobb were in Cobb's shared dream Mal's totem would work for her.

Since we both agree that Cobb was 100% aware of Mal's totem and how it worked then it would depend on Cobb (as the dreamer) whether or not it spun indefinitely or if it would just spin and then drop.

If Mal and Cobb were in Mal's shared dream the totem would work for her.

In that case it would depend on Mal (as the dreamer) whether or not it spun indefinitely or if it would just spin and then drop.

 

[wofford29]

What were we talking about?

 

[Devil_666]

The Departed. Awesome movie.

 

[Maglor]

I believe everything presented in the movie is what it seems to be minus Cobb waking up on the plane in the end…

So to clarify:

1) With the exception of the ending, the parts that are presented as reality are truly reality, including the time in Mombasa and the time on the plane before the Inception heist begins.

Correct.

2) The only place you diverge from this is at the end from when he "wakes up" on the plane. This you believe to be Cobb's dream.

Correct.

3) You believe that totems only work when you are in someone else's dream, and that this means the fate of the top in the final seconds proves nothing about whether Cobb is in a dream or reality.

Correct.

The following “essay” is in reply to the theories presented above. It is absurdly long and I probably should have trimmed some fat out of it, so I apologize for that. The least I can do is provide a bit of music to go along with it. Enjoy.

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="640" height="390" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/FTfPzDHMa-8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="640" height="390" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/9RWBigY0bmA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>​

To begin, the world in which Inception takes place allows for two basic kinds of dreams. The first is what I would call a “natural” dream. These are the dreams that you and I experience in a normal night’s sleep. The environments in natural dreams are created by and experienced by the dreamer alone. Most people over the age of ten dream 4 to 6 times per night, though often these are not remembered. These dreams end either on their own during sleep or upon waking. The purpose of natural dreaming is not fully understood, but it is believed to be an important part of good mental health.


The second is what I will refer to as a Somnacin dream. This is a drug induced artificial dream that is made possible by use of the Portable Automated Somnacin IntraVenous (PASIV) Device or some other intravenous delivery of Somnacin or a similar drug. This technology was created for military application to allow solders in training to safely “kill” each other in dreams. Like so much that science and medicine has given us, this was embraced by criminals and those who would exploit the addicted. A Somnacin dream can take the form of a shared dream experience (as in the case of the inception “heist”) or an individual dream experience (as in the case of Cobb’s secret ‘elevator memory’ world). An “architect” is required to build in advance the environment in which these Somnacin dreams take place. “Limbo” is unique in that, although it is sustained by Somnacin, it is “unconstructed dream space.” No architect has built this level of dream in advance, so creation lies in the hands of the individual trapped there. He or she generally pieces together a world constructed of parts of his or her own memories, which takes years (from the perspective of the dreamer) to accomplish. There is a grave danger in limbo that the dreamer will come to accept this world as reality, ceasing to be a lucid dreamer.

Now that we have that established, I will get to my first main point. What can be said about Dom Cobb’s ability to dream? This is addressed in Yusif’s pharmacy basement. (Text in blue is from the shooting script, written by Christopher Nolan. Any notable deviation in actual dialogue has been included in green.):

Saito Surveys the room appalled.

SAITO: Why do they do it?

YUSIF: Tell him, Mr. Cobb.

COBB: After a while… (looks at Saito) It becomes the only way you can dream.

YUSIF: Do you still dream, Mr. Cobb?

Cobb stares at the sleepers. Uneasy.

I can see why some might choose to interpret this otherwise, but to me this simply means that one who has been a long time Somnacin user is no longer able to have a natural dream, in the same way that a heroin user can no longer produce dopamine on his own. It may be a permanent loss or there may be a point after a significant “drying out” period when this ability could return, just as it takes a while to recover from any physical drug addiction. Although Cobb doesn’t answer when Yusif asks if he still dreams it’s safe to assume that the worlds greatest extractor would surly have lost this ability long ago.

As to the interpretation that one doesn’t actually loose the ability to dream naturally, but that they just choose not to because the Somnacin dream is so much better, I say this: We cannot control whether we have a natural dream. It is something that is a lifelong function of our subconscious. A Somnacin user could not simply decide to stop having natural dreams because he prefers the Somnacin dream. So when we are told “after a while it becomes the only way you can dream” it must simply mean that the ability to have a natural dream is lost. This establishes that if Cobb “wakes up” to a dream at the end of the movie it cannot be a natural dream. That leaves a Somnacin dream.

Just to recap, what do we know about a Somnacin dream?

1) The individual must be receiving Somnacin or a similar drug intravenously such as with a PASIV Device.

2) It requires an architect to build a world otherwise it looks like unconstructed dream space (no ready-made airplanes, airports, and houses).

So first of all, if Cobb and Saito shoot themselves in limbo (as is clearly implied) that’s their passage out of limbo. How does Cobb get himself from limbo into this new Somnacin dream? His body is on a plane with his friends. Did he have it worked out with one of them that he was to be put under a new sedation with the PASIV device before he woke up to reality? If that arrangement was ever made, it had to happen off camera, meaning there is no internal evidence to imply that this ever did happen.

What about the problem of building the new dream world? The two most likely candidates for an architect would be Ariadne and Cobb. No one would deny that Cobb has the ability to build worlds. We have seen his work in his secret elevator world. So, although he has lost the ability to have a natural dream, no one would suggest that he has lost the ability to build a world to be experienced in a Somnacin dream. Again, it could be either Cobb or Ariadne (or both) that would build this final dream world. When was this final dream world created? Ariadne and Cobb have been totally engrossed in accomplishing the inception mission. When did they (as a team or one of them as an individual) find the time to build Cobb’s final “dream world”? If you insist they must have found the time somehow it can only ever be assumed that this happened off camera, again meaning there is no internal evidence to imply that this ever happened. More importantly, looking at the motives of these two characters makes it clear that the only option in their minds is to get Cobb home to reality to take care of his real kids.

In limbo, on the penthouse porch:

Another massive lightning strike flickers across the sky.

ARIADNE: Cobb, I’m not going to let you lose yourself here! You have to get back to your children!

Unfortunately, this line didn’t make it into the actual film, but Ariadne does say:

“You can’t stay here to be with her.”

Ariadne doesn’t want to see Cobb lost in a dream. She wants him to get back to his children. The words that Christopher Nolan chose for the shooting script: “you have to get back to your children”, imply that Ariadne believes that Cobb has a responsibility as a father to take care of his children. It does not imply that she wants him to leave this dream world so that he can go to some new dream world that she (he, they) created, to enjoy spending time with artificial dream children.

Now consider how Cobb feels about his children.

In the lecture hall, speaking with Professor Miles:

COBB: I found a way home. A job. For powerful people. If I pull it off, I can get back to my family. But I need help.

COBB: I think I found a way home. It’s a job. For some very—very—powerful people. People who I believe can fix my charges permanently. But I need your help.

And a bit later:

COBB: You want to know what’s real Stephen? Your grandchildren waiting for their dad to come back. This job—this last job—is how I get there.

COBB: Reality… Those kids—your grand children—They are waiting for their father to come back home. That’s their reality. And this job, this last job, that’s how I get there. I would not be standing here if I new any other way.

Cobb wants to get home. And he truly believes that he can. Not only does he want to be with his children, he wants his children to have a father. I don’t have any children myself, but I can’t imagine any decent father feeling differently. So why would either Cobb or Ariadne be a party to keeping Cobb in a dream state instead of simply letting him return home?

That really is the most important question: WHY? Why would Cobb want to go from limbo into a new dream? Why wouldn’t he just go ahead with the plan and wake up? Why not let Saito ‘honor their agreement’ as he says in limbo? Why not just go home to his real living children? Why? Why “create” an airplane, an airport, his home, and his children in a dream world? Wouldn’t it be a whole lot easier to just wake up and do those things in real life? Didn’t the movie sufficiently establish that that’s what Cobb wants to do? Why is Cobb going into another dream logical in any way? It’s not logical for the character(s). And it’s not logical for the story.

As a brief aside: If some are still arguing that the ending is actually a natural dream (which I believe the film lays out as impossible), then he will simply wake up shortly, as we all do when experiencing a natural dream.

Now let’s get to the subject of how totems behave in dreams. The first mention of totems is in the workshop where Ariadne is receiving her lessons on shared dreaming. Upon waking up from a trial run, Cobb says, “she’ll need a totem.” Shortly thereafter,

ARTHUR: So when you examine your totem…

ARTHUR: (off screen) You know, beyond a doubt, that you’re not in someone else’s dream.

First, let me point out here that Arthur does not say that the only function of a totem is to know that you’re not in someone else’s dream. Also, it is not the only time totems are discussed. On a different day in the workshop, Ariadne is working on her own chess piece totem.

ARIEDNE: It’s an elegant solution to keeping track of reality. Your invention?

COBB: No. Mal’s.

Cobb pulls out his spinning top. Looks at it.

COBB: This one was hers. She’d spin it in a dream and it would never topple. Just spin and spin…

So Ariadne recognizes totems as an elegant solution for keeping track of reality. Plain and simple. Cobb doesn’t correct her and say: ‘just so you know, it only works if someone else is the dreamer.’ In fact he says that Mal’s top would never topple in a dream. Period.

So then why did Arthur draw special attention to the fact that a totem lets you know that you’re not in “someone else’s dream”? Simply because that is when you are most vulnerable. Cobb frequently goes into his secret elevator dream world. He goes there as the dreamer of his own volition. We don’t see him spinning his top there, because he already knows he’s dreaming. No need to check. The real need of a totem is to protect you in the event of someone hooking you up to a PASIV device without your knowledge (as we see done to Saito and Fisher).

What about the argument that someone may be able to manipulate the way his own totem behaves if it is his own dream? I’m absolutely not convinced that this is possible, but lets assume it is. Why would Cobb do this to himself? It has been established that he wants his children to have a father. He would never be content to intentionally attempt to fool himself into believing they have a father when they do not. And here’s a question: If he knew that he had manipulated the way his own totem worked, why would he have even bothered to spin it at the end? He wouldn’t have. He would already know that the top would fall and that it would signify nothing.

Finally, to say that Cobb has intentionally manipulated the way his totem behaves in dreams neuters the final seconds of the movie. The top is set up through the course of the movie as a vital plot device, and I refuse to accept that Nolan would turn it into a red herring for the final scene. It makes the fate of the top and Cobb’s feelings (or lack of feelings) about it meaningless.

In conclusion: I love the ending of this film for several reasons.

1) Cobb finds redemption, reconciliation & catharsis. On this we can agree, but for me it does not end there.
2) When Cobb lets go of guilt (through said catharsis) it allows him to also let go of doubt, as he trusts he is in reality enough to just walk away from his old crutch [his totem].
3) Cutting the scene before the top falls lets us make a choice to either continue to doubt what is real, or like Cobb, fully commit to Faith in the Real.

I think that guilt and doubt are tied together for many of us. We all want redemption, reconciliation, and catharsis. Yes, dare I say it, forgiveness. When we find this forgiveness we let go of doubts. Doubts about ourselves. Doubts about our relationships. Doubts about our God.

This is how I feel about the film. I have meditated on it a great deal and I will not change my view. I love the ending and my take on it with a great passion. As the film progressed I was expecting him to get trapped in a dream and I was very pleasantly surprised when he made it back home. Truly home. To me that is the real twist, and in this case is not simply a clichéd Hollywood happy ending. It adds great depth and meaning to the movie for me. If I were to change my view to thinking the end is a dream, or even to one of uncertainty, I would not love this movie as much as I do now.


Some might think this is a simple and boring interpretation of the ending, and to those that do: thank you. You have helped make it even more interesting for me. But the real praise goes to Nolan for sharing a story that allows for and encourages this kind of discussion.



I thank those of you who made it all the way through this post. Please know that, although replying is your prerogative, I am done debating this. I don’t expect to change anyone’s mind, and I feel I have sufficiently made my points in this and many other posts. It’s time for me to move on to other things before this stops being enjoyable.




-Maglor

 

[Maglor]

INCEPTION and Occam’s Razor: An Ending In Reality​

Frustra fit per plura quod potest fieri per pauciora
-It is pointless to do with more what can be done with less
​

Saito and Cobb face each other in Limbo. Having missed the kick that Ariadne and Fischer used to go up through the levels, they use the only remaining passage out. It is the same method that Cobb and Mal once used to escape Limbo. The train brought them directly back to reality. The gun does the same for Saito and Cobb. They simply wake up. No need for kicks or revisiting other dream levels.

We are told that when you dream you can never remember how you arrived at the locale where the dream begins. There is a very brief moment of disorientation for Saito and Cobb, which is to be expected after their time in Limbo. Then, almost immediately, their expressions convey recognition—this is the plane where we began the inception mission. Cobb looks sternly at Saito as if to say, “now honor our agreement.” Saito picks up the phone and does so.

Walking through the airport, the friends exchange knowing glances and smiles, acknowledging the success of the mission. There is a brief tense moment as Cobb shows his passport—did Saito’s call really work? It has! “Welcome home Mr. Cobb.” Miles meets him and takes Cobb home where he can be the father that he wants to be and that his children deserve.

All of this requires no additional assumptions about hidden intentions or off screen conversations. It only requires that you see the ending as…

Simple. Elegant. Beautiful.


<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="640" height="390" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/Z0kGAz6HYM8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>



The complexity of Inception lies, not in it’s plot, but in it’s subtext.​

 

[DiFabio]

Saito and Cobb face each other in Limbo. Having missed the kick that Ariadne and Fischer used to go up through the levels, they use the only remaining passage out. It is the same method that Cobb and Mal once used to escape Limbo. The train brought them directly back to reality. The gun does the same for Saito and Cobb. They simply wake up. No need for kicks or revisiting other dream levels.

We are told that when you dream you can never remember how you arrived at the locale where the dream begins. There is a very brief moment of disorientation for Saito and Cobb, which is to be expected after their time in Limbo. Then, almost immediately, their expressions convey recognition—this is the plane where we began the inception mission. Cobb looks sternly at Saito as if to say, “now honor our agreement.” Saito picks up the phone and does so.

Walking through the airport, the friends exchange knowing glances and smiles, acknowledging the success of the mission. There is a brief tense moment as Cobb shows his passport—did Saito’s call really work? It has! “Welcome home Mr. Cobb.” Miles meets him and takes Cobb home where he can be the father that he wants to be and that his children deserve.

All of this requires no additional assumptions about hidden intentions or off screen conversations. It only requires that you see the ending as…

Simple. Elegant. Beautiful.




The complexity of Inception lies, not in it’s plot, but in it’s subtext.​

The following “essay” is in reply to the theories presented above. It is absurdly long and I probably should have trimmed some fat out of it, so I apologize for that. The least I can do is provide a bit of music to go along with it. Enjoy.



To begin, the world in which Inception takes place allows for two basic kinds of dreams. The first is what I would call a “natural” dream. These are the dreams that you and I experience in a normal night’s sleep. The environments in natural dreams are created by and experienced by the dreamer alone. Most people over the age of ten dream 4 to 6 times per night, though often these are not remembered. These dreams end either on their own during sleep or upon waking. The purpose of natural dreaming is not fully understood, but it is believed to be an important part of good mental health.


The second is what I will refer to as a Somnacin dream. This is a drug induced artificial dream that is made possible by use of the Portable Automated Somnacin IntraVenous (PASIV) Device or some other intravenous delivery of Somnacin or a similar drug. This technology was created for military application to allow solders in training to safely “kill” each other in dreams. Like so much that science and medicine has given us, this was embraced by criminals and those who would exploit the addicted. A Somnacin dream can take the form of a shared dream experience (as in the case of the inception “heist”) or an individual dream experience (as in the case of Cobb’s secret ‘elevator memory’ world). An “architect” is required to build in advance the environment in which these Somnacin dreams take place. “Limbo” is unique in that, although it is sustained by Somnacin, it is “unconstructed dream space.” No architect has built this level of dream in advance, so creation lies in the hands of the individual trapped there. He or she generally pieces together a world constructed of parts of his or her own memories, which takes years (from the perspective of the dreamer) to accomplish. There is a grave danger in limbo that the dreamer will come to accept this world as reality, ceasing to be a lucid dreamer.

Now that we have that established, I will get to my first main point. What can be said about Dom Cobb’s ability to dream? This is addressed in Yusif’s pharmacy basement. (Text in blue is from the shooting script, written by Christopher Nolan. Any notable deviation in actual dialogue has been included in green.):

Saito Surveys the room appalled.

SAITO: Why do they do it?

YUSIF: Tell him, Mr. Cobb.

COBB: After a while… (looks at Saito) It becomes the only way you can dream.

YUSIF: Do you still dream, Mr. Cobb?

Cobb stares at the sleepers. Uneasy.

I can see why some might choose to interpret this otherwise, but to me this simply means that one who has been a long time Somnacin user is no longer able to have a natural dream, in the same way that a heroin user can no longer produce dopamine on his own. It may be a permanent loss or there may be a point after a significant “drying out” period when this ability could return, just as it takes a while to recover from any physical drug addiction. Although Cobb doesn’t answer when Yusif asks if he still dreams it’s safe to assume that the worlds greatest extractor would surly have lost this ability long ago.

As to the interpretation that one doesn’t actually loose the ability to dream naturally, but that they just choose not to because the Somnacin dream is so much better, I say this: We cannot control whether we have a natural dream. It is something that is a lifelong function of our subconscious. A Somnacin user could not simply decide to stop having natural dreams because he prefers the Somnacin dream. So when we are told “after a while it becomes the only way you can dream” it must simply mean that the ability to have a natural dream is lost. This establishes that if Cobb “wakes up” to a dream at the end of the movie it cannot be a natural dream. That leaves a Somnacin dream.

Just to recap, what do we know about a Somnacin dream?

1) The individual must be receiving Somnacin or a similar drug intravenously such as with a PASIV Device.

2) It requires an architect to build a world otherwise it looks like unconstructed dream space (no ready-made airplanes, airports, and houses).

So first of all, if Cobb and Saito shoot themselves in limbo (as is clearly implied) that’s their passage out of limbo. How does Cobb get himself from limbo into this new Somnacin dream? His body is on a plane with his friends. Did he have it worked out with one of them that he was to be put under a new sedation with the PASIV device before he woke up to reality? If that arrangement was ever made, it had to happen off camera, meaning there is no internal evidence to imply that this ever did happen.

What about the problem of building the new dream world? The two most likely candidates for an architect would be Ariadne and Cobb. No one would deny that Cobb has the ability to build worlds. We have seen his work in his secret elevator world. So, although he has lost the ability to have a natural dream, no one would suggest that he has lost the ability to build a world to be experienced in a Somnacin dream. Again, it could be either Cobb or Ariadne (or both) that would build this final dream world. When was this final dream world created? Ariadne and Cobb have been totally engrossed in accomplishing the inception mission. When did they (as a team or one of them as an individual) find the time to build Cobb’s final “dream world”? If you insist they must have found the time somehow it can only ever be assumed that this happened off camera, again meaning there is no internal evidence to imply that this ever happened. More importantly, looking at the motives of these two characters makes it clear that the only option in their minds is to get Cobb home to reality to take care of his real kids.

In limbo, on the penthouse porch:

Another massive lightning strike flickers across the sky.

ARIADNE: Cobb, I’m not going to let you lose yourself here! You have to get back to your children!

Unfortunately, this line didn’t make it into the actual film, but Ariadne does say:

“You can’t stay here to be with her.”

Ariadne doesn’t want to see Cobb lost in a dream. She wants him to get back to his children. The words that Christopher Nolan chose for the shooting script: “you have to get back to your children”, imply that Ariadne believes that Cobb has a responsibility as a father to take care of his children. It does not imply that she wants him to leave this dream world so that he can go to some new dream world that she (he, they) created, to enjoy spending time with artificial dream children.

Now consider how Cobb feels about his children.

In the lecture hall, speaking with Professor Miles:

COBB: I found a way home. A job. For powerful people. If I pull it off, I can get back to my family. But I need help.

COBB: I think I found a way home. It’s a job. For some very—very—powerful people. People who I believe can fix my charges permanently. But I need your help.

And a bit later:

COBB: You want to know what’s real Stephen? Your grandchildren waiting for their dad to come back. This job—this last job—is how I get there.

COBB: Reality… Those kids—your grand children—They are waiting for their father to come back home. That’s their reality. And this job, this last job, that’s how I get there. I would not be standing here if I new any other way.

Cobb wants to get home. And he truly believes that he can. Not only does he want to be with his children, he wants his children to have a father. I don’t have any children myself, but I can’t imagine any decent father feeling differently. So why would either Cobb or Ariadne be a party to keeping Cobb in a dream state instead of simply letting him return home?

That really is the most important question: WHY? Why would Cobb want to go from limbo into a new dream? Why wouldn’t he just go ahead with the plan and wake up? Why not let Saito ‘honor their agreement’ as he says in limbo? Why not just go home to his real living children? Why? Why “create” an airplane, an airport, his home, and his children in a dream world? Wouldn’t it be a whole lot easier to just wake up and do those things in real life? Didn’t the movie sufficiently establish that that’s what Cobb wants to do? Why is Cobb going into another dream logical in any way? It’s not logical for the character(s). And it’s not logical for the story.

As a brief aside: If some are still arguing that the ending is actually a natural dream (which I believe the film lays out as impossible), then he will simply wake up shortly, as we all do when experiencing a natural dream.

Now let’s get to the subject of how totems behave in dreams. The first mention of totems is in the workshop where Ariadne is receiving her lessons on shared dreaming. Upon waking up from a trial run, Cobb says, “she’ll need a totem.” Shortly thereafter,

ARTHUR: So when you examine your totem…

ARTHUR: (off screen) You know, beyond a doubt, that you’re not in someone else’s dream.

First, let me point out here that Arthur does not say that the only function of a totem is to know that you’re not in someone else’s dream. Also, it is not the only time totems are discussed. On a different day in the workshop, Ariadne is working on her own chess piece totem.

ARIEDNE: It’s an elegant solution to keeping track of reality. Your invention?

COBB: No. Mal’s.

Cobb pulls out his spinning top. Looks at it.

COBB: This one was hers. She’d spin it in a dream and it would never topple. Just spin and spin…

So Ariadne recognizes totems as an elegant solution for keeping track of reality. Plain and simple. Cobb doesn’t correct her and say: ‘just so you know, it only works if someone else is the dreamer.’ In fact he says that Mal’s top would never topple in a dream. Period.

So then why did Arthur draw special attention to the fact that a totem lets you know that you’re not in “someone else’s dream”? Simply because that is when you are most vulnerable. Cobb frequently goes into his secret elevator dream world. He goes there as the dreamer of his own volition. We don’t see him spinning his top there, because he already knows he’s dreaming. No need to check. The real need of a totem is to protect you in the event of someone hooking you up to a PASIV device without your knowledge (as we see done to Saito and Fisher).

What about the argument that someone may be able to manipulate the way his own totem behaves if it is his own dream? I’m absolutely not convinced that this is possible, but lets assume it is. Why would Cobb do this to himself? It has been established that he wants his children to have a father. He would never be content to intentionally attempt to fool himself into believing they have a father when they do not. And here’s a question: If he knew that he had manipulated the way his own totem worked, why would he have even bothered to spin it at the end? He wouldn’t have. He would already know that the top would fall and that it would signify nothing.

Finally, to say that Cobb has intentionally manipulated the way his totem behaves in dreams neuters the final seconds of the movie. The top is set up through the course of the movie as a vital plot device, and I refuse to accept that Nolan would turn it into a red herring for the final scene. It makes the fate of the top and Cobb’s feelings (or lack of feelings) about it meaningless.

In conclusion: I love the ending of this film for several reasons.

1) Cobb finds redemption, reconciliation & catharsis. On this we can agree, but for me it does not end there.
2) When Cobb lets go of guilt (through said catharsis) it allows him to also let go of doubt, as he trusts he is in reality enough to just walk away from his old crutch [his totem].
3) Cutting the scene before the top falls lets us make a choice to either continue to doubt what is real, or like Cobb, fully commit to Faith in the Real.

I think that guilt and doubt are tied together for many of us. We all want redemption, reconciliation, and catharsis. Yes, dare I say it, forgiveness. When we find this forgiveness we let go of doubts. Doubts about ourselves. Doubts about our relationships. Doubts about our God.

This is how I feel about the film. I have meditated on it a great deal and I will not change my view. I love the ending and my take on it with a great passion. As the film progressed I was expecting him to get trapped in a dream and I was very pleasantly surprised when he made it back home. Truly home. To me that is the real twist, and in this case is not simply a clichéd Hollywood happy ending. It adds great depth and meaning to the movie for me. If I were to change my view to thinking the end is a dream, or even to one of uncertainty, I would not love this movie as much as I do now.


Some might think this is a simple and boring interpretation of the ending, and to those that do: thank you. You have helped make it even more interesting for me. But the real praise goes to Nolan for sharing a story that allows for and encourages this kind of discussion.



I thank those of you who made it all the way through this post. Please know that, although replying is your prerogative, I am done debating this. I don’t expect to change anyone’s mind, and I feel I have sufficiently made my points in this and many other posts. It’s time for me to move on to other things before this stops being enjoyable.




-Maglor

Well how about this point, we don't get to see what happens.

Cobb does. Cobb is at some point, going to go back into that house in all likely hood. He is going to see what has become of the top. And if he doesn't he could never be sure, like Mal who he tricked,a nd look what happened to her.

I would say the only thing he cares about is hugging those kids, much as Nolan chooses to believe he gets back to them, that is the only thing that matters to Cobb in that moment. Thats why he doesn't care about the top, which to me also proves he is scared. If he wasn't why not stand there 10 more seconds to be absolutely sure after all he went through. He went into Limbo and risked his life to see his kids. Thats the only reason he does anything related to this mission, to get back to them. And he knows what happened to Mal all to well, she couldn't tell the differance to the point she killed herself. I would think Cobb would want to be totally sure so that he didn't meet a similar fate and leave his children without any parents. Hell right before she jumps : "Think of our children" "They aren't real" They were, she left them.

I also believe the lines about never letting someone understand your totem are very important. Arthur tells Ariadne about being able to manipulate other people's totems for a reason. And of course Cobb would know this as well yet he tells her how his works in detail. As you say Nolan knows what he is doing, so why include such a warning if nothing is to come of it. And she again, knows about Mal, knows she killed herself and what it did to Cobb and why it all happened. She knows all that Cobb wants is his kids, he says thats the only reason he is doing any of this. I cannot believe that nothing at all comes of all her first hand knowlege of this and her being the only one in the group that really knows what Cobb is going through. I believe that sort of like Tommy Lee Jones in Men in Black with Will Smith, Leo is training her as his replacement, and wants her to perform this Inception that he has just proved possible for the first time ever on himself.

Also note Cobb's level of interest in the concept of Inception when Saito brings it up well before promising him his children back. He thinks if he can really do this, he could do it to himself and it would almost be like going back in time and making everything right again. Mal haunts him in both worlds, Inception maybe the only real way to stop her once and for all.

No, and reread why I added a bit more to back up my points.

My ultimate belief : It's Cobbs dream, he's in limbo building again from memory with his kids, she manipulated the Top and with Cobbs help they both performed inception on Cobb to make him believe Mal is gone and this is real so he can build whatever he wants as long as he wants. He can spend forever with the kids never growing old and leaving him behind for school or whatever, or he can watch them grow, whatever he wants. He can pretend he was never a fugitive.



You can simply say that but you have no more proof then you do for your own points, they both are equally feasible as is Devil's explanation to me, its just how you choose to interprut and believe it.

Im ok with that outcome because Cobb, the only character I know from Cobb's family since Mal and his children are projections and he can't be trusted(for all we know Mal could have been 500 pounds and one armed), ends up happy and getting what he wants while leaving me with a great twist. Like the end of Brazil. I simply like the idea that such a complicated movie, ends with an equally complicated idea, as opposed to just gift wrapping a happy ending for me.

My point is that he already is sure. Yes he will see what happens to the top (I keep making/using that point in my own argument).

He has faith, and doesn't need to watch it fall. He has no doubt that it will be lying on it's side when he comes in to make peanut butter and jelly sandwiches for his kids. We don't get to see it fall because Nolan gives us the privilege of exercising the same faith.


Thank you Christopher.






So you are in the "Ariadne created the final dream world" camp?

You're on your own man! I've talked about that extensively earlier in this thread and can only have so many debates at the same time!


Lately Devil_666's argument has been dominating my thoughts and I need to stay focused!





Nah, He doesn't want to be incepted. He just wants to get home to his kids.

No you're correct. I believe everything presented in the movie is what it seems to be minus Cobb waking up on the plane in the end. I was just responding to isculpt and Deckard actually said it more precisely: those jumps are more to do with editing and time constraints. So you're correct, the only thing about the movie I dispute is the ending.

So to clarify:



Correct.



Correct.



Correct.

And just to expand on why (besides what I already wrote) the whole point of having a totem and NOT letting someone else handle it is because those totem's are projections in dreams. If another person has not handled your personal totem, they have no idea how it functions (weight, feel, etc.) so they can't properly replicate it in a dream. This is why the extraction on Saito fails; the architect doesn't reproduce the rug in Saito's love nest correctly which immediately tells Saito that it's not real and it's a dream.

This is why Dom doesn't let Ariadne handle his totem and says "I can't let you touch it, that would defeat the purpose". Same reason Ariadne doesn't let Cobb handle her totem.

That's how totem's work: no one knows how they function except for the owner.

But that's also why they only work when you're in someone else's dream. They have no effect in your OWN dream, since YOU know how they're supposed to work, how they feel, their weight, balance, etc.

And don't disregard the kids, I'm still curious what you think about what I uncovered (the kids in the end are seen in a dream first). Your original statement was that the second set of kids were just there for the final scene to show the age difference between the last time Cobb saw them last. But as I showed, those same older kids are first seen in a dream with Cobb, Mal and Ariadne.

And it's significant because all the previous scenes depicting the kids show the 1st set of younger kids. The only scenes that show the 2nd set of older children is the dream scene with Cobb, Mal and Ariadne and then the ending.

Curious to hear your thoughts on that.

Not sure what you mean!? The point I'm making about totem's is: They DO work. But only when you're in someone else's dream that doesn't know how they're supposed to work i.e. they're useless in your own dreams since YOU know how they're supposed to work/not work.

If your totem was like a little bear that said "Mama" when you pressed its belly and I had never handled it/used it, if we were in a shared dream there's no way I could replicate your totem accurately.

So you would immediately know if you were in someone else's dream simply by using your totem; if wouldn't feel the same, it wouldn't say "Mama" when you pressed its belly, etc. So that would clue you in on the fact that it was a dream.

But in your OWN dream, it wouldn't be the same. Your totem WOULD feel exactly the same. Your totem WOULD say "Mama" when you pressed its belly. Because YOU know how it works, its every detail and secret.

So in your own dream, you could make your totem act like it would in the real world i.e. you COULD trick yourself into thinking you weren't in a dream.

Again, that's only regarding your totem in your own dream.

Doesn't really matter. Cobb started using it after she died, so it's his now.



Cool, looking forward to it.



Like I said, totem's don't work in your own dreams. So the top WILL stop and fall over. So there's no need for him to stop it once it starts spinning and no reason to not spin it since subconsciously he KNOWS it won't spin indefinitely because that only happens when you're in someone else's dream.

More points that add credence to the ending being Cobb's dream:

Where's Cobb's mother-in-law at the end of the movie!?

Who was watching Cobb's kids at the end of the movie!?

Mal's parents moved into Mal and Cobb's house!?

Early in the film there's a deliberate scene that sets up a clear and distinct divide between Cobb and his mother-in-law. Not only does she not want to talk to him when he asks his daughter to put her on, but she also tells both kids that Cobb will never be back AND she abruptly ends the phone call and hangs up on Cobb while he's in mid-sentence.

It's obvious she does not like him and has a lot of animosity towards him (probably believing he killed her daughter).

Yet, at the end of the film Michael Caine picks up Cobb from the airport and when they arrive at Cobb's house his kids are just playing in the backyard by themselves. No supervision. No mother-in-law. No one else in sight. So what, Michael Caine just left them there alone while he picked up Cobb from the airport!?

Michael Caine also lives in Paris where he teaches, so for the most part the mother-in-law and the children live at Mal and Cobb's old home. That in and of itself makes absolutely no sense to me. Why would Mal's mother agree to move into the house that was owned by her deceased daughter and the man SHE believes murdered her!?

It really only makes sense for Cobb: He obviously has an attachment to that house since it's shown numerous times in his memories/dreams and it's also where the final scene between him and Mal takes place. So if the ending is a dream, Cobb's dream, it WOULD make sense for him to return there to find his children waiting AND to not see his mother-in-law around. After having ALL charges dropped with Saito's help. Perfect happy ending. Dreamy.

The house looks exactly the same too.

@ Devil_666 - First, let me say that it is refreshing to see a different take on the “ending is a dream” theory. That being that he was the architect of his own final dream. It’s definitely the most appealing argument I have seen for it. And it also made me think harder than any other such theory. For that I thank you.


Before getting to the meaty part of your post, I will begin by addressing some of your secondary points.





Well, during those scenes he actually is married. So of course he would be wearing his ring. Not really worth mentioning… Just saying.





I actually fully agree with this. I have made the point at least once in this thread (and many times when talking with friends) that, although it is interesting that he is wearing his ring in dreams but not at the end, it’s doesn’t hold much real water for proving the end is real for the very reason you just stated.






I can see why you would say that the clothes are unimportant, but it was clearly a very intentional decision to have them wear the same clothes throughout except for the very last scene. Therefore, while admittedly a minor point, it still does help the argument for a real ending.






I disagree. And as I said before, one wouldn’t need IMDB and ending credits to see that the kids are different and older. Yes the difference was intentionally subtle to leave room for doubt and the kind of speculation you are sharing, but as these screen caps show, the untrained eye can easily see that the kids are different and older.



If nothing else, that girl is a lot taller. “Impossible for anyone to prove within the realm of the movie differently” is a very bold statement. But even if that were true, are you suggesting that the reason they cast different, older kids at the end was random or accidental? Like the different clothes, it was a very intentional decision that Nolan wouldn’t have put on screen if it wasn’t for a reason. And he knows that we live in the age of IMDB.





A compelling argument, but one that relies heavily on the assumption that Cobb is feeling shame when he turns away and puts his hands over his face. I’ve seen the movie 3 times and I never got that vibe from that scene. I have the shooting script, so I could check and see if Nolan calls for a specific emotion here. Could you remind me of when that happens?






I actually agree with all of that. It fully fits into my take on Cobb and his character arc. Take the quotation marks off of “wakes up” and that describes much of why I think the ending is so powerful.


However, that is not the only positive I get out of the ending.


I love the ending because:

1) Cobb finds redemption, reconciliation & catharsis.
2) When Cobb lets go of guilt (through said catharsis) it allows him to also let go of doubt.
3) Cutting the scene before the top falls lets us make a choice to either continue to doubt what is real, or like Cobb fully commit to the “leap of faith.





I realize that I have not addressed the most important part of your post about the ending being a dream of Cobb's making.


I will soon.

Gonna quote it here for quick reference:

Maybe both are right. It’s a matter of perspective. As Cobb talks to Mal he helps her realize (at the same time revealing to us) that they did in fact grow old together, at least in a sense. Showing them old and wrinkly is a way to visually convey that idea. The way that is all conveyed on screen is simply an effective storytelling device.

Another thought: who’s to say how someone truly looks in limbo? Do they show their actual age? Does it switch back and forth? Were their hands supple or wrinkly when they lay on the train tracks? It doesn’t matter. And there may not be one true answer.

And if it does mean that he is an unreliable narrator, what then? What does that prove? What are you relating that to?




I can see why you are resistant to this, but I’m sorry; the evidence is internal evidence no matter how uncomfortable that makes you. Careful viewing would make a side-by-side screen cap unnecessary. Sure it would help to have a photographic memory, but it’s there for all to see. Plain and simple.

Again, they would not have cast different kids if there weren’t an important reason for doing so.

It’s not like a stunt double that is supposed to fool the audience into thinking they are seeing a different cast member. Rather, different kids were cast for the end with the intent of accurately telling the story. The kids would be 2 years older in the real world, therefore older kids needed to be cast for the end scene.



Again, could you direct me to which part of the movie that is? You saw it more recently than me, and I want to re-watch that scene and check it in the shooting script before commenting further.


P.S. Still waiting on the big reply. Better to take this a little at a time.

Actually no.

I'm gonna explain this using evidence from both inside and outside of the film since you've already blurred that line anyways.

One of the reasons Nolan casted two sets of kids is because it's the law. Little kids can only work in movies for like 4 hours a day. By law. So that's a normal practice and shouldn't be seen any differently. You know who the Olsen twins are, right? They were both on Full House and they both played the same character. "The Prestige" (another Nolan film) also used two different children to portray Borden's child as an infant. It's a routine and normal practice for movies with young children in them.

The easiest way to distinguish the kids is:

The older boy has longer hair that covers his ears and face and the older girl is taller and she also tucks back some of her hair over her ears.

Older Boy/Older Girl


Younger Boy (Shorter Hair/Ears Visible)


Younger Girl (Shorter)



But here's the problem: The kids that appear in the final scene of the movie that's supposed to be "reality" are the same exact kids seen in the earlier dream scene with Cobb, Ariadne and Mal.


Dream Sequence (2:01:28) Taller Girl

Dream Sequence (2:01:29) Boy with Long Hair (You can see it hangs down past his knee)

You can also see the girl tuck back her hair over her right ear as she kneels down.


Now compare the kids seen above which is a dream to the kids from the scene where Cobb runs the "Mr. Charles" scheme, which is also a dream:



They're not the same.


Now compare the kids from 2:01:28/2:01:29 which is a dream:

To the kids from the end which is supposed to be real:

They're the same.


So how is that possible? You stated that the older kids were simply used to show the age difference between the last time Cobb saw them. If so, then why do those same older kids appear in a dream sequence BEFORE we see them at the end?

However it is by that same token completely possibile that the first set of clothing simply didn't fit the older, larger kids and so the closest thing available in their sizes were used.

And it just does not account for them bouncing around in various dreams so lets not just "throw it out".

To me the stuff your saying is definitive is exactly what is proving it is not. The fact that all these things were edited in and that he wants to create so much doubt tells me that it's likely theres a good reason for that doubt. Why create any doubt at all if he simply gets back to them and it's a happy ending. Because it isn't. Any doubt ensures this.

And yet is a happy ending either way, because we aren't actually emotionally invested in the real children, we are in Cobb's memory of them, and so to me all that matters is his happiness. If in his mind/dream he gets to play with his kids, real or not, he does not care, so even if he's in a coma, he is getting what he wanted. Ignorance is bliss.

Sucks for the real kids, but again ultimately, we don't have much of an investment in them. But IMO there is a reason he is putting so much emphasis on Cobb "not caring anymore" and Nolan "choosing to believe".

Another thing is why doesn't Cobb care?

He just went through all that hell to see them. He pulled it off, he won, he did it, mission accomplished, so Saito makes a call and he's good, right?

So then even if he is asleep there in the kitchen, and the top keeps going, couldn't he just blow his brains out or something, like with Mal and wake up knowing for sure he can go see the real kids.

But like the guys in that basement, or like Mal or Saito at the end even, I think he's just lost a handle on reality and is afraid to find the whole thing was a dream, with no deal, and that if he doesn't just take that chance right there, he may never get another. Like the way he's offered the job and left them to begin with.

"they come here to be woken up, the dream has become their reality."

Cobb is scared, he still doesn't trust his own judgement and hasn't all along which is why he cannot build. Nothing has changed to reassure him even with Mal gone and the mission complete. And so his only real option to not live in fear is to just let go and embrace whatever kids those are as his reality.

How long have I been saying "Noland"?





It may make sense to you, but it is still purely speculative. You are describing something that is never even hinted at in the movie.

There are arguments that the whole movie is a dream, with explanations for why they believe that, but those too are without tangible basis.






The entire quote is: "I choose to believe that Cobb gets back to his kids, because I have young kids. People who have kids definitely read it differently than those who don't". He indicated that the top was not the most crucial element of the ending, saying "I've read plenty of very off-the-wall interpretations... The most important emotional thing about the top spinning at the end is that Cobb is not looking at it. He doesn't care"


Two main points there:

1) He (Nolan) prefers to believe the ending is reality. (Although he's not saying you must believe that.)

2) Cobb intentionally walks away from the top before it can fall or prove to spin indefinitely.


In my opinion, (assuming that the fact the kids are older and dressed differently isn’t enough to convince someone) the crux of understanding the ending is determining Cobb’s motives in that last scene. (Eff it, I'm just ending up retyping all my thoughts anyway! )


4 possibilities:

1) Cobb firmly believes he is in reality and is correct.
2) Cobb firmly believes he is in reality and is INcorrect.
3) Cobb is unsure whether he is dreaming, and doesn’t care either way. He’s just happy that he can finally see his kids.
4) The whole movie was a dream, there is no such thing as shared dreaming, and tops spinning is a red herring.

Let me just say that I am dismissing option #4 out of hand. That argument could be made about every movie ever made.

Option #2 would be a crushingly depressing ending because it would mean that Cobb returns to find the top still spinning, meaning that he was wrong. This is not real, these are not my kids, and all that swelling beautiful music was a load of crap!

Option #3 feels totally counterintuitive to me. Say he spun the top and then thought: "You know, I’m just glad I’m here. Regardless of the truth, I accept this as my reality.” The logical thing for him to do would be to stop the top from spinning. Even better, he could stop it from spinning and then hide it away like his wife had done in limbo.

For me Option #1 is the only one that makes sense.

He spins the top because it’s a deeply ingrained habit. For years he has doubted that reality is reality. As my old posts say, this is related to the guilt he feels for his wife’s death. Now that he has forgiven himself, letting go of guilt, the doubt has also fallen away. When he sees his children turn and call for him he realizes this completely. He no longer cares about entertaining his old doubts and habits. He abandons those old doubts so completely that he doesn’t even need to wait to see if the top falls. His kids are more important, so he goes to them. Later he returns to make his children peanut butter sandwiches, and there it lies on its side just as he knew it would be.

Again, Nolan says: “The most important emotional thing about the top spinning at the end is that Cobb is not looking at it. He doesn't care." He doesn’t say, “Cobb doesn’t care whether he’s dreaming or not." Rather Cobb doesn’t care about the top anymore. He doesn’t need it. He’s through with shared dreaming. He is ready to stay right hear in the real world with his living family.

Why does Nolan cut the scene before the top falls? Because we are given the privilege of expressing the same faith that Cobb now has. We can choose to complete the journey with him, or we can continue to wonder what is real.


I choose to believe, and I thank Nolan for giving me that choice.

It's worth noting another thing: It is incontrovertible that the top wobbles at the end before the scene is cut. In the scenes where we see the top spin indefinitely (for example: in limbo with Saito) it doesn’t even show as much as a hitch. The shake that we see before the film cuts to black is the signal of inevitability. The top WILL fall.

Actually no.

This point is often missed, and it's important. Your totem only tells you if you're in someone else's dream.

Dom states this to Juno (forget her name lol). He doesn't say totem's help a person tell if they're in reality or if they're dreaming. He clearly states that the purpose of a totem is to help a person tell if they're in the real world or if they're in someone else's dream.

Every single dream sequence in the film (minus the ending scene) where Dom uses the totem and it spins indefinitely is a shared dream i.e. not Dom's individual dream.

You never see an individual dream and see a person using their totem in their own dream so there's no basis to declare that totem's act the same in your own dream like they do when you're in someone else's dream.

So the only proof of their use is stated by Dom. And again, he clearly states that the purpose of a totem is to help a person tell if they're in the real world or if they're in someone else's dream.

So for your Option #2, if it's Dom's dream the top WOULD stop spinning and fall over. But that is NOT proof that he's in the real world. It's only proof that Dom isn't in someone else's dream. That's it. And I believe he isn't. I believe he's in his own dream, of his own creation.

It's mentioned numerous times throughout the film that Dom was once a great architect (both in real life and in dreams) and capable of creating vast landscapes. And you can even see evidence of his work i.e. creating huge amounts of architecture from memory (real places) for Mal to inhabit. The reason he stopped is because of his subconscious projection of Mal. After the last scene between the two, when he finally forgives himself and lets her memory go it would be perfectly logical that he would then regain that ability to recreate the airplane, to recreate (or even just create) an airport and to recreate his home which we see in the film he's already done before.

Now about his wedding ring.

The theory is every scene we see Dom wearing a wedding ring is a dream and every scene when he's not wearing one is the real world.

Two things.

1. This actually isn't true, because in the scenes that are supposed to be flashbacks we see Dom wearing his ring. So are those moments from dreams as well!? Just saying.

2. People who use this theory point out that Dom isn't wearing his wedding ring in the final scenes of the movie i.e. that's proof that the final scenes are indeed in the real world.

And actually that's not true.

His "wedding ring" isn't real. It's a projection of his subconscious in dreams. And that's because in his dreams, subconsciously he's still holding onto Mal. Like a prisoner. When he finally let's her go and clears his conscious/subconscious of his memory of her that projection of his wedding ring is no longer necessary.

It's interesting to note, in the "beginning scene" which is actually the second to last sequence, when Dom is sitting at the table eating with Saito there's two clear and deliberate shots of his hand with the wedding ring. Yet, from the time Saito reminds Cob of who he is and why he's there you never see another shot of his wedding ring. Because IMO, once he becomes aware of who he is and is no longer amnesiac (I guess that would be a good description) his projection of wedding ring would disappear since he no longer needs it in his dreams.

Now about his kids.

The main points I see regarding the kids are their clothing, their age and the fact that Dom only sees their faces at the end. So that must mean it's real.

I disagree.

Their clothing is irrelevant. We see Mal (whose part of Dom's subconscious) throughout the film in different clothing. So whether or not the kids at the end are wearing the same clothes, similar clothes or even completely different clothes is irrelevant.

Their age is also irrelevant because they look almost exactly the same. And like I said before, without info outside of the movie it would be impossible for anyone to prove within the realm of the movie differently. Because there is no definitive proof.

Lastly their faces. This is interesting because at one point (while in a dream) Mal calls to their daughter and right when she's about to turn Cobb turns away and puts his hands over his face in shame. IMO this is because it's Cobb who can't face his children since he feels guilty and blames himself for the mother of his children being dead. It's not because he can't imagine/remember his kids faces. As a father myself it doesn't matter if the last time I saw my son he was facing away from me, whether in a dream or awake and just in my imagination I could easily remember and picture his face clearly. Even years after the fact. The reason Cobb never sees his kids faces in dreams is because he can't bear to look them in the eyes. But AFTER he forgives himself and lets Mal go, then and only then can he face them.

And the ending might seem happy with his kids and being free but it goes back to what Cobb said earlier in the film when the team is preparing for Fischer Jr.s Inception about positive emotion and that we all learn through reconciliation, for catharsis.

Well what happens at the end of the film? He confesses to Mal (actually himself) about planting the idea that eventually lead to her death and he finally makes peace with himself/cleanses his soul. He meets up with Saito in limbo and again when he "wakes up". His stateside troubles disappear once and for all. And finally he sees his children again. ALL examples of positive emotion, reconciliation & catharsis.


Sorry for the essay.

Post below.

 

[DiFabio]

^^^

 

[CelticPredator]

High five!