Indy IV Negative Thread

[Gruson]

Temple is a soooo much better movie, just watched it again this weekend.

Harrison is awesome in it and has the character down perfectly, great Indy attitude for sure.

Steven S. and John Williams are also perfect in Temple...you can tell they both put in a lot of work making it.

William's themes are all top notch (Short Round theme, Willie theme, big theme at the end when the children come back, etc)


The "magical" scenes are also there.

Example, watch where Indy first tries to take the Shankara stones. The glow from the stone on his face, the music from Williams, the angle of the shot, Ford's expression....it all just works perfectly.

Another is when Indy goes to rescue the children...he says, "Right. All of Us." and the Slave Children theme plays....perfect movie making.

And you have to love the ending...the drama and tension fight sequence on the bridge, the way it was shot, Williams score, Ford's "oh ^^^^^" line....all classic.


There are no "classic" moments in KOTCS....none of it works and it all just looks really thrown together with no chemistry from anyone making this movie.

KOTCS just did not have the Indy "feel" for me and was such a let down....

I have probably seen the original Indy movies over 40 times each...maybe more... but I will never watch KOTCS again.


Raiders is perfection but Temple is second IMO. Love Crusade as well but it ranks third in my book but is still MUCH better than this last Indy movie.

 

[IrishJedi]

There are no "classic" moments in KOTCS....none of it works and it all just looks really thrown together with no chemistry from anyone making this movie..

You're wrong. And if you give yourself the chance, you will realize that in time. This movie is every bit as INDY as "The Last Crusade". It took me 2 or 3 viewings to realize it, but it's all there.

I have probably seen the original Indy movies over 40 times each...maybe more... but I will never watch KOTCS again.

So, you gave the movie ONE chance to live up to 27 years and dozens of viewings of the other films? I don't get that at all. Oh well, your loss.

 

[IrishJedi]

And here's the other obvious 800 pound gorilla in the room:

Some people have nitpicked and dissected this movie into a bloody f'in pulp. And that's all well and good. Knock yourselves out. But here is the cold, hard truth: If either "Temple of Doom" or "The Last Crusade" were released today they would be just as brutalized, if not more.

Can you imagine the online fanboy outcry at things like: "Anything Goes"? The rubber raft sequence? Short Round? Willie? The Pankot dinner scene? A guy getting his heart ripped out and still living and screaming? Indy being saved from being evil by his little boy sidekick? The Young Indy train sequence? Marcus Brody as slapstick moron? Allison Doody's performance as Elsa? "If you are Scottish Lord then I am Mickey Mouse!"... jesus, I could go on and on and on. With the exception of RAIDERS there is a ton of stuff in the original Indy movies that would be absolutely hated and despised today. Some of it already is, but the movies get a pass. Why? Because they have the benefit of nostalgia and time. "Crystal Skull" does not have that luxury, but the nitpicking and hatred (especially from those who would champion TOD and TLC) is no less silly.

 

[BadMoon]

I wonder what would happen if people who didn't like the movie went into the positive Indy thread to argue why those people shouldn't like it. I bet they would not be looked to highly at.

 

[IrishJedi]

Don't get sanctimonious... you're the one who created this unnecessary thread. Someone else decided to create a "Positive" thread to escape the avalance of bitterness that was rampant in the main discussion thread. While I wasn't keen on that either, I could at least understand the reasoning behind it. This one? Not so much... especially when the guy who created it claims to actually like the movie.

 

[BadMoon]

Don't get sanctimonious... you're the one who created this unnecessary thread. Someone else decided to create a "Positive" thread to escape the avalance of bitterness that was rampant in the main discussion thread. While I wasn't keen on that either, I could at least understand the reasoning behind it. This one? Not so much... especially when the guy who created it claims to actually like the movie.

Then why do you keep posting in it? Seems like you are pretty keen in it after all. I did actually like the movie. It took a second viewing and knowing what I was in store for. My point is you're not changing anyones minds. Who cares what other people think?

 

[IrishJedi]

I don't really care what other people think. I am simply engaging in friendly debate and discussion. Otherwise, what is the point of ANY of these threads? If people want to say something without someone else having a counter-opinion or making other points then just go talk to a wall somewhere or something.

 

[Captain Britain]

And here's the other obvious 800 pound gorilla in the room:

Some people have nitpicked and dissected this movie into a bloody f'in pulp. And that's all well and good. Knock yourselves out. But here is the cold, hard truth: If either "Temple of Doom" or "The Last Crusade" were released today they would be just as brutalized, if not more.

Can you imagine the online fanboy outcry at things like: "Anything Goes"? The rubber raft sequence? Short Round? Willie? The Pankot dinner scene? A guy getting his heart ripped out and still living and screaming? Indy being saved from being evil by his little boy sidekick? The Young Indy train sequence? Marcus Brody as slapstick moron? Allison Doody's performance as Elsa? "If you are Scottish Lord then I am Mickey Mouse!"... jesus, I could go on and on and on. With the exception of RAIDERS there is a ton of stuff in the original Indy movies that would be absolutely hated and despised today. Some of it already is, but the movies get a pass. Why? Because they have the benefit of nostalgia and time. "Crystal Skull" does not have that luxury, but the nitpicking and hatred (especially from those who would champion TOD and TLC) is no less silly.

Actually, I think Raiders is the only truly great Indiana Jones movie. Temple of Doom looked great and was fun, but the structure is nowhere near as satisfying as Raiders considering its an action movie - all the main action beats are in the first twenty minutes or last half an hour, instead of divided through the film. Last Crusade I liked even less - under-directed action scenes (compare the boat chase to the one Chris Columbus originally wrote for the Monkey King script) bland villains, poor special effects, too much slapstick, but the movie was saved by Sean Connery & Harrison Ford's chemistry, and Tom Stoppard's contributions to the script (he wrote the wonderful Zeppelin scene 'do I detect a rebuke'?). And yet, though Raiders is the only great movie of the three the other one's are so much a part of my youth, and I love the character so much, that over time I've forgiven their shortcomings, and watch them all at least three times a year. The same with KOTCS - I don't like it much as a movie, but I can't help loving it as the return of my favourite ever fictional character, played by my favourite actor. Besides, it's 'not that bad' which is good enough for me.

That's not to say that I wouldn't have liked to see a kind of Indiana Jones 'Unforgiven' with real drama, but I'm not bothered that we didn't get it, and if we get an Indy 5 I'm happy for it to be the same quality as KOTCS.

 

[fool_of_a_took!]

Who's the more douchey? The douche, or the douche who follows him?

 

[BadMoon]

Who's the more douchey? The douche, or the douche who follows him?

 

[IrishJedi]

Actually, I think Raiders is the only truly great Indiana Jones movie. Temple of Doom looked great and was fun, but the structure is nowhere near as satisfying as Raiders considering its an action movie - all the main action beats are in the first twenty minutes or last half an hour, instead of divided through the film. Last Crusade I liked even less - under-directed action scenes (compare the boat chase to the one Chris Columbus originally wrote for the Monkey King script) bland villains, poor special effects, too much slapstick, but the movie was saved by Sean Connery & Harrison Ford's chemistry, and Tom Stoppard's contributions to the script (he wrote the wonderful Zeppelin scene 'do I detect a rebuke'?). And yet, though Raiders is the only great movie of the three the other one's are so much a part of my youth, and I love the character so much, that over time I've forgiven their shortcomings, and watch them all at least three times a year. The same with KOTCS - I don't like it much as a movie, but I can't help loving it as the return of my favourite ever fictional character, played by my favourite actor. Besides, it's 'not that bad' which is good enough for me.

That's not to say that I wouldn't have liked to see a kind of Indiana Jones 'Unforgiven' with real drama, but I'm not bothered that we didn't get it, and if we get an Indy 5 I'm happy for it to be the same quality as KOTCS.

You may be British, but this Irish-American applauds you sir.

 

[Blackhole]

I had one bad point in the film, and I've been over that already...

RIP...

 

[BadMoon]

I had one bad point in the film, and I've been over that already...

RIP...

The big um.... send off at the end before the wedding part really ruined the first viewing for me. I absolutely hated it. The second time knowing it was coming made it easier to watch.

 

[IrishJedi]

Are you talking about the UFO shot? I honestly can't understand why people would even hate that at all. IMHO, it was one of the coolest shots in all of the Indy movies even the first time I saw it. I love the hell out of it. Oh well.

 

[SSC_Nerd]

Are you talking about the UFO shot? I honestly can't understand why people would even hate that at all. IMHO, it was one of the coolest shots in all of the Indy movies even the first time I saw it. I love the hell out of it. Oh well.

I like it too, but I can understand the hate. Most people would think that gigantic shot was bit much, and a bit too "out there" for even and INdy movie, and I felt that way as well at first. I don't think most people expected them to go that crazy with effects on it as well. Too much CG!... but whatever.

 

[tomandshell]

I thought the ark scene in Raiders was a nice big splash of special effects to put a great cap on the story and end things with a bang. I didn't have a problem with another big effects sequence at the end of this one. I thought it was pretty awe inspiring and I always love to see something of that scale realized on film. Felt the same about the mushroom cloud.

 

[JAWS]

What is funny Irish (and I am not picking a fight with you) is when I read your review of the film if I did not know better I would think that after you listed what you liked and what you did not like I would swear that your final rating would havce been at best a 5 out of 10 and not the 7 you gave it.

You list six things you dislike and only four things you liked. I mean you hated the main action piece of the film, you hated Marion, you did not like the lack of whip or gun stuff from Indy (again I say what did he really do in this film?).

What I get that you liked about the film was the UFO idea - Indy's character and Mutt.

I am not saying you did not like the film. Clearly you do but even as a fan of the film you seem to dislike more then like and seem to have a hard time defending it even in your own review.


However I do agree with you that I am not sure how TOD or TLC would be viewed today. I am still not a big fan of TLC. I basically only watch that film for the interaction between Indy and his dad and the TANK scene. Otherwise that film does not offer much except so real cheese.

I still love TOD. Not sure where I would be if this was ade today. Willie does drive me crazy but I have always liked Short Round. And even though the raft scene is over the top. It looks prett good with the way they edited the landings.

But both those films have moments that still give me chills of excitment. The both have a classic scene or two. KOTCS does not have 1. I kind of like the opening scene in the warehouse. It's by far the best part of the film but that's because it's Indy doing the action not just being a spectator.


However your argument of how people would view those films if made today has one minor problem. You can say that about many older films. Hell if Frankenstein was released today everyone would say it was boring and corny and not the classic it is. People would complain what an overactor James Cagney was in White Heat.

When we watch those older films we forgive them of those things because of their age.

KOTCS hsa no such excuse.

 

[JAWS]

I thought the ark scene in Raiders was a nice big splash of special effects to put a great cap on the story and end things with a bang. I didn't have a problem with another big effects sequence at the end of this one. I thought it was pretty awe inspiring and I always love to see something of that scale realized on film. Felt the same about the mushroom cloud.

Problem was is that all it was was a big special effect. The Scene of the Ark had a point. It served the story. The UFO was just neat to look at and the shot took forever.

I did like the nuke blast shot though.

 

[IrishJedi]

What is funny Irish (and I am not picking a fight with you) is when I read your review of the film if I did not know better I would think that after you listed what you liked and what you did not like I would swear that your final rating would havce been at best a 5 out of 10 and not the 7 you gave it.

That's because I can replace bitterness and cynicism with relativity and rationality.

I can honestly say that the negatives DO NOT outweigh the positives. Not at all. To say otherwise I would have to engage in hyperbole, and I just don't play that game anymore. It's tired and futile.

 

[IrishJedi]

When we watch those older films we forgive them of those things because of their age.

KOTCS hsa no such excuse.

Why not? It's an INDY movie, damn it. It should be done in the same style as the others (warts and all). And it was.