J.J. Abrams' Star Trek Into Darkness

[dsokyra]

Spoiler

It isn't a straight reboot. Most people's beef is simple. Kirk is still white, Uhura is black, Sulu is asian, Spock is Vulcan, Khan was played by a mexican and is now a very refined british man. They went from shopping Benicio Del Toro and when they couldn't lock him down they just started going for anyone with acting chops. Could be worse but you're going to see alot of complaints about this just as your seeing IM3 Mandarin complaints. Khan is another arch nemisis and people won't like him messed with. Especially when the reasoning behind it seems to be a legit spanish actor's scheduling conflict.

They should have tackled Garry Mitchell first when they couldn't lock down Del Toro. Mitchell could have served the same exact purposes as Cumberbatch in this movie without changing the race of the character and furthing more properly setting up this story.

You make a sound point. I just don't think it's THAT big of a deal, and I would consider myself a huge ST fan...but then again, I didn't really have a problem with the Manderin thing either, and I grew up reading IM comics. I guess I'm just happy we finally have some more quality ST films, and ANY IM films...if they take creative license here and there, what's the big deal? Would people prefer that these movies weren't made at all? I just think some people need to relax about it and try to enjoy the movies.

 

[dsokyra]

Spoiler

If Trekkies/Trekkers/whatever can cope with the technology and Bridge of the Enterprise looking so drastically than the 1960's and 1980's counterpart, they should be able to accept someone of a different race playing Khan.

Yep!

 

[Deckard]

Spoiler

If Trekkies/Trekkers/whatever can cope with the technology and Bridge of the Enterprise looking so drastically than the 1960's and 1980's counterpart, they should be able to accept someone of a different race playing Khan.

Spoiler

Again if Nimoy wasn't cameod in 1 as Spock it's no problem but J.J. doing that created his own plotholes now because it demonstrates that when these characters grow old they should still look like their original counterparts. When Pine's Kirk grows old he should look like Shatner the same way Quinto will look like Nimoy thus why Nimoy still exists. So again Khan being older than kirk was already born by the time Nero comes through and changes everything so race should not be one of those things. And again obvious as from the fact they tryed to cast Beincio Del Toro first, they knew this completely well. Just saying, sloppy writing, if you're gonna do a sci-fi with time travel as big as Star Trek people expect a little more. A quick writing change to Garry Mitchell fixes all that and puts us at episode 1 of TOS giving us plenty of plots to still use. Jumping ahead to Space Seed here, we've already given up some solid stories we can't go back to.

What sucks is it seems like this is what we're in for every outing with this cast. They will have to explain how time travel slightly alters an original story. It's super ****ing lame. Write your own new stories and completely new characters, this is like me crossing out Coke with permanant marker, writing on "Deckard's Soda" and selling it as my own original product. Every ST from now on will have to cater to that one plot element from the first. It's going to get old really fast.

 

[a-dev]

I would echo all of Deckard's points.

Spoiler

You can explain the Enterprise not looking like the OS version fairly easily as the ship was built after the NERO time incursion, and heck maybe they do explain why Khan is now a british man who looks, sounds and acts nothing like Montalban's Khan - but the point is there better be an explanation rather than just pretending its the same guy without any referance to the fact hes so vastly different.

 

[fosing]

Spoiler

Benedict Cumberbatch/KHAN....was born in Mexico, heck he can be fluent in any language and retain a British accent.

problem solved.

 

[youbastards]

Spoiler

Wasn't Roddenberry's entire subplot to Star Trek that the character of a person is more important than their race, gender, species, etc? Yet here we are, in 2013, arguing about whether or not an actor's race is relevant to a role.

 

[a-dev]

Spoiler

Wasn't Roddenberry's entire subplot to Star Trek that the character of a person is more important than their race, gender, species, etc? Yet here we are, in 2013, arguing about whether or not an actor's race is relevant to a role.

Errrr. No. It intended to show all races working together for the betterment of humanity. However it was never a universe in which characters changed race for no stated reason. They even have an explanation for why klingons looked different from the 79 movie onwards.

 

[Deckard]

Spoiler

Wasn't Roddenberry's entire subplot to Star Trek that the character of a person is more important than their race, gender, species, etc? Yet here we are, in 2013, arguing about whether or not an actor's race is relevant to a role.

Gene's real vision. And I don't think Gene would be terribly keen on Carol Marcus's role as eye candy.

On the brightside I think this franchise is going to die soon, J.J. doing Star Wars, I have a tough time believing Paramount will continue to let him helm these too. It'd be like Whedon rebooting Batman for DC and still directing A2 for Marvel.

 

[DinoLast]

I thought the film was excellent

Spoiler

If Benedict walked around with a mullet speaking with a Mexican accent even though he is meant to come from India, it would have given the game away. Yes there are connections to the original series to the new movies, but there is no way Chris Pine would ever look like William Shatner in the future, and he does not even make an attempt to sound like him. Anyway Khan was assuming a new identity so they may have altered him some way. I found this less distracting than changing Rachel for a different actress in the Dark Knight

 

[youbastards]

Errrr. No. It intended to show all races working together for the betterment of humanity. However it was never a universe in which characters changed race for no stated reason. They even have an explanation for why klingons looked different from the 79 movie onwards.

Spoiler

You're overlooking the entire point, when was Khan's race ever important to any Star Trek plot? It was a Mexican actor playing a character from India. It's no different than casting a Korean-American (who was born in Korea) to play a role previously played by a Japanese-American (born in the USA).

Benicio Del Toro was born in Puerto Rico, how is he any better of a replacement to Montalban for a character from India?

The character is what is important, who cares what race they are or if they somewhat resemble an actor that played them before?

 

[Dr Daystrom]

Spoiler

Ummm...ok, that's fine, but EVERY other character in this "same universe" is being played by a different actor than the originals. It's not a reboot huh? Interesting. I guess I'm not familiar with the technicalities of what constitutes a reboot. I'm pretty sure the majority of moviegoers consider Abrams' Trek a reboot and not a continuation of the "same universe universe". As far as Kahn goes, the character is awesome. Why not use him? Sure Mantalban's performance was iconic. But I still think they can use the character of an augmented super-human from the 90's, have him played by a different actor, and call him Khan. Who's to say that the butterfly effect in this timeline didn't somehow change which child the parents decided to name Khan. Or maybe the mother married a different guy and had always planned on naming her son Khan. I mean the possibilities, if you wanna talk technicalities, are endless.

Spoiler

Um....no?

First off, all the main characters are played by actors with at least some similarity to the originators of the role. Not so with "Khan".

The timeline as laid out in the 2009 movie, diverges from the standard Trek timeline in 2233 when Nero's ship re-enters the timeline from the future. Khan at this point is snoozing peacefully in cryosleep on the ship he and his peers used to escape their overthrow on Earth. A bit late for his presumably centuries dead mother to marry someone else or name a totally different kid "Khan".

They chose a great actor, but not the most appropriate casting choice.

 

[DinoLast]

By the way

Spoiler

Ricardo Montalban's parents were Spanish immigrants , so he is classed as white.

 

[Deckard]

The fact that we know they tryed to cast Benicio first puts any debate to sleep and makes it simply sloppy writing. The end. It doesn't mean you can't like his role, it just makes him a complication like Nimoy that they now have to adhere to for every movie.

 

[youbastards]

Using that logic, Kirk is half Norse-God because the actor that played his father played Thor in another movie.

 

[Dr Daystrom]

Spoiler

You're overlooking the entire point, when was Khan's race ever important to any Star Trek plot? It was a Mexican actor playing a character from India. It's no different than casting a Korean-American (who was born in Korea) to play a role previously played by a Japanese-American (born in the USA).

Benicio Del Toro was born in Puerto Rico, how is he any better of a replacement to Montalban for a character from India?

The character is what is important, who cares what race they are or if they somewhat resemble an actor that played them before?

Spoiler

So if JJ had recast Spock as a 5'0" pudgy blonde woman, you'd be totally good with that?

Also, the filmakers are the ones that decided to tie the new film universe to the original timeline prior to 2233. If they wanted to do major reimaginings of key characters, they should have just called it a total reboot and completely alternate Trek universe.

They made that decision with the first movie in this sequence, they should be expected to honor their choices and work within them.

 

[Deckard]

Using that logic, Kirk is half Norse-God because the actor that played his father played Thor in another movie.

Not even close. JJ made a very conscience decision to tie the two ST universes togeather in 1. Now he's stuck adhering to that formula on all of them.

Spoiler

Khan is just a gimmick in this now, if you'd known since Benico spilled the beans over 2 years ago it was going to be Khan no one would care. They used the whole who is John Harrison bs thing to sell tickets, he's a money making gimmick.

 

[youbastards]

Spoiler

So if JJ had recast Spock as a 5'0" pudgy blonde woman, you'd be totally good with that?

No, because I've never seen a blonde Vulcan.

 

[youbastards]

Not even close. JJ made a very conscience decision to tie the two ST universes togeather in 1. Now he's stuck adhering to that formula on all of them.

No, JJ Abrams made a conscious decision to reboot/re-imagine/revitalize the franchise while not invalidating all the work that was done before by the actors that played those same roles. He did that out of respect to the franchise and fans, and understanding how attached people have been to those characters for almost 50 years.

He's only 'stuck' if you aren't accepting the fact that the franchise was rebooted.

 

[a-dev]

Spoiler

You're overlooking the entire point, when was Khan's race ever important to any Star Trek plot? It was a Mexican actor playing a character from India. It's no different than casting a Korean-American (who was born in Korea) to play a role previously played by a Japanese-American (born in the USA).

Benicio Del Toro was born in Puerto Rico, how is he any better of a replacement to Montalban for a character from India?

The character is what is important, who cares what race they are or if they somewhat resemble an actor that played them before?

Spoiler

Even if I accept that, and I'm not sure I do, the character appears to be nothing like Montalban's portrayal. Granted I haven't seen the film, only trailers

Spoiler

Um....no?

First off, all the main characters are played by actors with at least some similarity to the originators of the role. Not so with "Khan".

The timeline as laid out in the 2009 movie, diverges from the standard Trek timeline in 2233 when Nero's ship re-enters the timeline from the future. Khan at this point is snoozing peacefully in cryosleep on the ship he and his peers used to escape their overthrow on Earth. A bit late for his presumably centuries dead mother to marry someone else or name a totally different kid "Khan".

They chose a great actor, but not the most appropriate casting choice.

Spoiler

Cumberbatch is just too much removed from Montalban without providing an explanation as to why he is so. And so far no one who has seen the film has indicated that there is any, which is worrying

 

[Deckard]

No, JJ Abrams made a conscious decision to reboot/re-imagine/revitalize the franchise while not invalidating all the work that was done before by the actors that played those same roles. He did that out of respect to the franchise and fans, and understanding how attached people have been to those characters for almost 50 years.

He's only 'stuck' if you aren't accepting the fact that the franchise was rebooted.

It wasn't rebooted.

Spoiler

If it was why are the same characters like Khan showing up in Part 2 and people still screaming his name out as one dies from radiation. If Michael Keaton showed up in the beginning of Batman Begins and handed down the cowl, that wouldn't have been a reboot either.

It's been reimagined at best, dumbed down the same old plots for the masses but newsflash, ST was doing fine before JJ made it cool for the idiots. They had i dunno, a dozen feature films, 5-600 or more hours of television.