Les' backlog situation (for the uninitiated)

[Scar]

Les should have nothing but our continual support. It grates on my stones to think that anyone would be prioritizing a collectible customization over the health, mental and physical, of a human being... and Les is the exemplar of a good human being. He's gone through so much to improve the lives of those around him and constantly sacrificed himself in the service of others... and that INCLUDES those who are awaiting customs. For the love of God don't rush the man, even if you insist upon being selfish think of it like this - would you rather an artist of Les' caliber rush a project through to satisfy expediency, or pour the love and commitment that he prides himself on with all of his work? Do you want it done fast or do you want it done right? Speaking as someone who has also been run ragged with family health concerns this year himself, the very last thing that Les needs is people hassling him about "responsibilities". Are you kidding me? The man has been fulfilling, in a truly over-the-top fashion, every obligation that can be expected of him. FAMILY comes first. It should be something that anyone can grasp.

 

[ProgMatinee]

The following is generic comment about customizers, not of Les or any specific person.......

Can someone point me to a post or something of the supposed "hasslers"? We aren't just making up strawmen from people sending simple reminders or requests for progress are we?

Just to play devil's advocate here, I totally think requests to know where their project stands is totally understandable and I dare say that even requests for their money and unfinished job back may be appropriate if its taking too long. Thats only fair, IMO.

Now, that said, if someone is indeed hassling and being overly demanding that their item is taking too long then I agree with everyone else.

 

[pixletwin]

Just to play devil's advocate here, I totally think requests to know where their project stands is totally understandable and I dare say that even requests for their money and unfinished job back may be appropriate if its taking too long. Thats only fair, IMO.

I agree with that. Communication is key.

The hassles and demanding are happening via PM and reported posts to MODs by the hasslers.

 

[ProgMatinee]

Thanks. Yeah, if someone took the inquiring to the "next level" and it became "hassling", I'd immediately send them their project back, refund them and apologize as best I could with an explanation of the nature of making customs. Tell them best of luck finding a customizer that could accomadate them and then I'd promptly email all the other customizers and black list their ass.

 

[pixletwin]

 

[carbo-fation]

Great post, Josh. People need to be more understanding and patient.

 

[MaulFan]

Kudos to putting this out at the forefront Josh, as the comments are often lost in Les' own thread and people surely comment to him without a clue what's going on.

I can only understand what Les is going through because to an extent I watched my dad go through similar with my grandmother. It's easily one of the top 3 ^^^^tiest things ever for a person to have to go through. It hurt me just watching the toll it took on my dad and when I talk to Les I can tell the same is happening and it hurts me too.

Some people will undoubtedly think it's no excuse or whatever, but let me tell you this, Les is taking his not doing your work harder than anyone is about not getting it. The man needs to do it as his financial support and just because he's an artistic person and we artist rely on work to get out the feelings we have inside. Things are taking such a toll on him and complicating his life so much, he has to fight to be able to do this. I know a part of him would love if he could just pull up a chair at his work bench and chip away at your stuff, it's his passion, he enjoys it, but life isn't affording him that luxury lately.

Many of us are either to young to really understand his situation, or have been fortunate enough to not go through it with our own families, but either way, it can be tough to understand, but do try to understand.

A general comment about all customizers, they're solo individuals, there's no one to pick up the slack if something disrupts them, so bare in mind when you commission one of them, the work takes time, and life can throw curve balls that extend that time, and understand that most of the time your payment is required up front because these guys aren't sitting on a pile of cash where they can buy all the parts and make the figure and not get hurt if you back out, they need the money up front for the parts to make it and the guarantee that you'll be taking it. It sucks to wait once you've spent the money, but as a consumer, if you are informed and know these things, it is then upon you to make the choice if you are willing to accept how things go or not. If you commission someone knowing all this, give them patience and understanding when legitimate delays arise.

 

[ProgMatinee]

Out of curiousity, at what point do customizers decide to take commissions and take money up front.

I mean, I'm the type of guy that if I had money up front, bad news, where's the incentive to finish the job? It would be too easy for me to just say "I'll do it on my time" and well when that "time" came, who the hell knows?

I have a few ideas to make something and sell it, but I'd personally not take someone's money up front.

 

[Mooncat]

Ive just started with a commision for someone else and as such Ive taken a deposit 1/4 of the total price, Im not up to Les's work standard but I hope to be. Surely the way forward for this type of transaction is a deposit? one that covers materials be it a 1/4 - 1/2 of the total job ?

As one of Les's waiting commisions Im prepared to wait 12 months if necassary, and Ive paid up front. I must admit I didnt ask how long it would take prior to ordering and Ive also changed the commision slightly - Sent a new head and asked for a previous head to be sent back unpainted with the new one.

Given Les's level of work, and knowing that a few of the popular artists on here are in similar situations with timeframes for commisions I understand that Im looking at 12 months for my commision be it Les or someone else

Given Les's personal problems and the fact that this is his main way of bringing in monies I can understand him having a long waitlist and timeframe.

I understand this situation and will wait.

I feel though that any future commisions should be advertised / agreed within a time frame, and that people need to go into these things agreeing a timeframe and what happens when this timeframe isnt met

If that timeframe isnt met and no return will be given then its out of order. Personal difficulties aside.

I am also prepared to chip in to help Les out if a donation is organised.

The excuse that I cant give you your work or your money back within an agreed timeframe doesnt play for any customiser on this board imho. Hell its just bad business and ruins any future commisions for that artist on this board and will reflect on other artists all be it in a small way for their commisions, especially for the uninitiated visiting these boards for the first time, hell this stickied thread will reflect on that !

Id say anyone if there thinking of commisioning someone on these boards get some things said first upfront:

1)Agree a Timeframe (worst case)
2)A promise of a refund if the worst case timeframes not met

I know we want to keep things friendly and asking these types of questions doesnt always seem friendly but if we want to keep this type of thing from happening in the future Id suggest a sticky for all customisers wishing to peddle their services on here where they agree to a "Code of Conduct"

Where we all agree to in future :

1)Agree a Timeframe (can be worst case)
2)A promise of a refund if the worst case timeframes not met

Abide by these promises and we "we being all customisers selling on these boards" wont get into these types of situations for any future transactions.

 

[superdoug]

well as far as the pay in advance thing. here's my take on it.

lots of industries do a pay when it's done or as it is in construction you are paid for the amount of work you've done so far with a retainage amount held back to be paid when the job is complete and it is satisfactory.

now while most buyers would be happy if this was the case with commissions there are some problems with it for the artist. first off they aren't a big operation or even a small operation so cash flow is a real problem. they need money up front for well supplies and if they are making a living off of it they might need the money just to live off of and can't risk getting stiffed in the end. their incentive to get it done still remains because i think there is a lot of return customers plus there is word of mouth so if they can't get positives from each they won't make it very far, plus i don't think the profit margin is really high on these commissions it's not like they can take on 100 plus jobs and then run with the money to some island and retire.

Sometimes the pay in advance ends up hurting the artist when things run more expensive then planed or takes longer then planned it just ends up taking away from any profit. Plus with the economy that $45 commission you ordered a year ago might now cost you $70 but since you paid in advance it’s the artist that’s out the $25 extra not you.

more communication about time frame might be nice but like it's already been stated life happens and it's only one person so no matter how well the plan it can always fall through.

 

[aussieinnyc]

I think this is a great thread to have - as many others have said here, communication is the key.

I haven't dealt much with Les, having only a Joker head on order with him, but when I initially did that he seemed a thoroughly nice, genuine guy, and it really sucks about the difficulties he's having.

If I have to be honest, does it gall a little that I paid a long time ago and it hasn't arrived within the projected timeframe? Sure it does. But while there were dates suggested, there were never any guarantees of delivery time, and I knew that going into it. I do understand that, with these one-man-shows, life can sometimes get in the way. But at the moment with the world economy the way it is, life is getting in the way for a lot of us. So as bad as I feel, I'm not able to help out by offering to pay shipping again (I know Les has not asked for this, and it has come as an offer from some board members off their own bat). I agree with Mooncat above that there comes a point where, no matter what, the refusal of a refund for something not delivered is unacceptable, and perhaps going forward there should be provisions for this negotiated as part of each custom.

I wish Les all the best for getting back on his feet as quickly as possible. This is just a situation that sucks for all involved, and while hassling is never to be tolerated (for the record, apart from the initial ordering I've just sat back and waited for Les to begin work - a quick look through his thread was enough to tell me that he was having problems that didn't need to be worsened by me asking where my stuff was), I think it does help to understand the clients are being disadvantaged here too.

 

[ProgMatinee]

Good posts Mooncat, superdoug and aussie.

I don't mean to over dramatise this, but I can see definitive flaws in the philosophy of using new commissions to fund the completion of prior deals. In honesty, thats what happening in epic scale in this Madoff situation. If the ^^^^ hits the fan, that back orders in the chain are left holding the bag...and when the workload gets bigger and bigger and the backlog gets deeper and deeper, thats potentially a bigger bag to hold if something dramatic happened.

Again, this isn't a comment on any specific person, just something to note about the whole commissions business. With respect to the customizers on the board, I personally feel this business is really one where "buyer beware" is not a cliche.

 

[Mooncat]

Im bunging $30 for Les via Paypal now, times are hard I know but help a fellow freak out please, hopefully all of us that have posted concern for Les making page after page of "well wishes" will do similar, giving Les the

ability to not take anymore commisions for a while and finish the ones he has outstanding,

As Progs said you take on commisions to pay for commisions your digging a bigger hole for yourself and getting more worried in the process,

If I were Les in the future id

1) put my prices up by 50%
2) take a 50% deposit on all commisions
3) agree a timeframe on all commisions prior to taking any monies
4) meet the timeframe or refund all commisions

Id also like to see Dark Artist sticky a post that is a "Custom Commisions Code of Conduct" in here

Advising customisers how to take orders and commisioners on how to commision.

If customisers cant or wont abide by meeting agreed timeframes or refund the money then they shouldnt be allowed to sell on here. We do it in the Commerce section why not here ?

 

[BuDDaH]

All of this is not my business. I am not involved into it.

But one thing I don´t undertstand. How can somebody make a living out of Headsculps or custom made Figs ? I have read this several times in this thread. I mean how many HS must be made and sold in order to pay all bills ?

 

[KBA]

Good post DarkArtist, and les, I've never questioned the way you handle business. You told me it's money upfront, I understood and agreed. In how you welcomed me into this hobby alone made me never question how you handled business. A guy with your kind of passion for making this stuff, this art, can do no wrong. We should be so lucky to have artists like you and josh and the others willing to do this for us.

 

[wofford29]

I want my ^^^^ right now damnit!

 

[DarkArtist81]

Great comments all!

And to answer Progs inquiry about paint work needing payment up front.... Well, there are many reasons. First off, paint and supplies takes money to pay for... especially for those projects that are in need of special paint or materials.

Another reason, at least for full on custom figures... is the cost. Say someone buys a Joker from me... They absolutely MUST pay up front or else I cannot make the figure. Here is a breakdown of why.

Figure body and hands: $8-10
Joker shirt: $20
Joker inner suit: $40
Joker trenchcoat: $40
Chain: $8
Stand: $5
Resin to cast it: ?? (questionable amount... maybe $3-5)

That is almost $130 right there... and that isn't counting the time for the artist. So almost all of the money goes directly to parts. For those of us who don't make our own, this can be an expensive part of the process.

As for repaints, the fees could be paid either way. I've allowed people to send heads and let me paint them, only to pay later.

And putting a timetable on something really doesn't help. I have sat down and tried to force a paintjob before... it always looks sloppy. So I don't force it anymore. My customers deserve better than that. So my motto is.. just let it happen. People can hate me if they want, but at least when I do finish it... it delivers it's promise. I think that is far more important than just slapping a coat on there and shipping it out.

And on to shipping... I know that for myself... I eat the cost of shipping. Because I never know what boxes I will use, or what their weights will be... so I don't waste time calculating it. I just let it go. It's almost a price that I pay for making people wait, something I do gladly.

Les is in a unique situation. He doesn't have a job. And since he is so far behind.. he is in a place he never wanted to be. He now has no choice. He can either get a normal job and spend a good year trying to catch up on the work he has now... maybe longer.

Or he can take commissions and sell collection items so that he can mail out stuff and keep hammering away. So I ask you this...

Is it better to have Les NOT take commissions, and possibly stop being a customizer because of it? Or is it better for Les to keep going, at the expense of an even larger workload?

See the dilemma? It's a hard choice for anyone to make.

 

[pixletwin]

If I were Les I would close the doors for a while till he at least gets caught up. There is nothing more stressful than having crappy petty obligations hanging over your head on top of the really substantial ones. Once the boat stops rocking and he has things more under control, then the doors should reopen. Just seems like the way its going is just going to pile more unneeded stress on him.

Dang if I could I would start a collectibles company and Les a full time job doing this that pays what someone with his skills deserves.

 

[Wanderer]

From the POV of the buyers its perhaps understandable the frustration they have, not withstanding the fact they've been waiting for a a repainted sculpt, body etc for several months, they've paid someone good money and have nothing to show for it. To compound matters these frustrated people, who ask for they're money back are told 'No deal' That is harsh, and inevitably anger is going to boil over for a small minority, particularly when they're also told there's no money left to post the things...However, this ISN'T a normal situation Les is in. He's clearly going through hard times with his parents (something, i am sure is most people's worst nightmare) Les is perhaps only a handful of people on this board who commands respect as a given. IMO, he's an untouchable along with the likes of DA too. Common sense, patience and a little belief needs to be shown here...LES WILL DELIVER. These angry folk need to take a reality check when comparing their wait for a head, against Les' woes.
I just hope his rep and future commission work doesn't take a hit because of this saga...
As a final point Les should definitely stop the commissions until he's 100% happy he's caught up with his outstanding commitments...It will only compound things otherwise, I fear...

 

[Vader AL]

i agree, communication is key and an agreed upon time from is a great idea. i've had Custom Mikey do a custom paint for me and it was a smooth transaction(and GREAT work) and I'll wait till the end of this decade if I have to for my Hurc Vader so I haven't had a bad experience with any custom job but it would be good to have some understood guidelines for both the buyer and customizer. I love that we have so many talented artists that are willing to take on jobs.

my thoughts and prayers are with Les during this time in his life.