Marvel's WHAT IF?

[Dave_W]

Exactly! Now if all the guys were looking down at her and calling her sweetheart and she went around saying she doesn't need a man and built the Hydra Stomper herself while all the guys were incompetent then yeah. But she had difficulties being in the army just like Steve had during training because he was skinny.

 

[Khev]

There's no denying the show's wokeness. They could have easily said "What if...another male American became Captain America." But no because it's 2021 of course the new Cap needs to be female and non-American. American black males are yesterday's wokeness (sorry Sam ), they took it to the next level, lol.

BUT...beyond that they didn't hit anyone over the head with the notion that females are better, America is bad, etc., and just told a fun and entertaining story that still honored the heroism of the real Captain America by still giving him a valid part to play.

In that regard I found the story to be very much in the vein of WW from the 2017 flick or ZSJL. She was there to play her part just like any other soldier but without making any effort to show how superior she was or "toxic" anyone else was. Credit where credit is due, good job Marvel.

 

[chrisstbh]

There's no denying the show's wokeness. They could have easily said "What if...another male American became Captain America." But no because it's 2021 of course the new Cap needs to be female and non-American. American black males are yesterday's wokeness (sorry Sam), they took it to the next level, lol.

BUT...beyond that they didn't hit anyone over the head with the notion that females are better, America is bad, etc., and just told a fun and entertaining story that still honored the heroism of the real Captain America by still giving him a valid part to play.

In that regard I found the story to be very much in the vein of WW from the 2017 flick or ZSJL. She was there to play her part just like any other soldier but without making any effort to show how superior she was or "toxic" anyone else was. Credit where credit is due, good job Marvel.

So it's woke based on the sheer fact that she's a woman?

 

[Dave_W]

So it's woke based on the sheer fact that she's a woman?

God forbid!

 

[Khev]

Yes God forbid anyone read my actual post, lol.

 

[ZE_501]

That word gets used waaaaaay too much. Not everything that deals with issues that real people face should be classed as over-correcting pandering.

Par for the course on Collectorfreaks.com

 

[Khev]

My entire first reaction post was praising the show but due to a half sentence comment now we're going into a second page of triggered outrage over a single word that I stated point blank was far from the show's most defining element. Yep par for the course in 2021 all right.

 

[Dave_W]

My entire first reaction post was praising the show but due to a half sentence comment now we're going into a second page of triggered outrage over a single word that I stated point blank was far from the show's most defining element. Yep par for the course in 2021 all right.

The hyperbole is strong with this one

 

[ZE_501]

Yes God forbid anyone read my actual post, lol.

I read it. I had actually ignored your 'woke' comment because I see that vague and lazy pejorative thrown around 10 times a week on these forums to the point it doesn't mean anything.

You liked it in spite of it being 'woke'? It just told an entertaining story without hitting people over the head etc. -- but you still had to throw that in there for some reason along with cranky old man comments about a haircut.

No one's 'triggered' or 'outraged', Khev. I think you're giving yourself a little too much credit there. LOL

 

[chrisstbh]

No outrage, just trying to understand why when a white guy does some cool **** it's cool, but as soon as a woman does cool stuff it's woke and pandering.

It's not like they totally sidelined Steve, he basically saved them from the POW camp and he had a few good scenes.

 

[Khev]

No outrage, just trying to understand why when a white guy does some cool **** it's cool, but as soon as a woman does cool stuff it's woke and pandering.

See this is what is "lazy and pejorative." Literally no one said that but because you couldn't counter what was actually being said you fall back on the tired "oh so you're just against all women doing anything cool."

And ZE_501 yes of course I'm well aware that the side shaved haircut is a real thing. Do a google image search on "sjw" and you'll see a million pics of "women" with that look. I'm just glad they didn't give it to Peggy.

 

[chrisstbh]

See this is what is "lazy and pejorative." Literally no one said that but because you couldn't counter what was actually being said you fall back on the tired "oh so you're just against all women doing anything cool."

But it does seem to be that whenever a woman seems to do anything in these movies or shows it gets labelled as woke or pandering. The most recent examples being Koska Reeves, Peggy, Teela, Ratcatcher 2 etc.

 

[a-dev]

I liked it. The animation was solid and the story was pretty good. I like the fact that you see that Peggy's attraction to Steve wasn't just the super soldier. I know in TFA you get a bit of that and then confirmation in Endgame with the photo of pre-serum Steve on her desk, but this brought it home nicely

*using best Joey Tribbiani impression* So she always wanted a bit of little Steve. Eyyyyy

 

[ZE_501]

And ZE_501 yes of course I'm well aware that the side shaved haircut is a real thing. Do a google image search on "sjw" and you'll see a million pics of "women" with that look. I'm just glad they didn't give it to Peggy.

You live in a tiny little world, huh?

 

[Khev]

But it does seem to be that whenever a woman seems to do anything in these movies or shows it gets labelled as woke or pandering. The most recent examples being Koska Reeves, Peggy, Teela, Ratcatcher 2 etc.

I think the important thing to note is whether it's being done to simply celebrate a kickass hero who happens to be female (WW, BW, Leia, Ripley, Sarah Connor, original Teela, 2016 Harley, etc.) vs. a female character that seemingly exists for the primary purpose of upstaging either a male version of that same hero or men in general.

Everybody likes the former but yes the latter just sucks.

If Peggy was her own character and became a superhero through her own unique means then I'd put her squarely in the first group. Maybe in a vacuum or pre-2014 she could have taken Steve's serum (whoa that sounds racy, lol) and no one, myself included, would have batted an eye. Who knows. But in current year when a woman is given an existing male character's origin or powers then yes I think it's valid to acknowledge that that is in line with current "woke" trends. That's all.

But for this show IMO it cannot be denied that regardless of whether a cis white American male was replaced with a non-American female it really did do a good job of telling a story with a genuinely likable, feminine and strong woman. That's MY primary takeaway, which is why I enjoyed it so much.

 

[chrisstbh]

I think the important thing to note is whether it's being done to simply celebrate a kickass hero who happens to be female (WW, BW, Leia, Ripley, Sarah Connor, original Teela, 2016 Harley, etc.) vs. a female character that seemingly exists for the primary purpose of upstaging either a male version of that same hero or men in general.

Everybody likes the former but yes the latter just sucks.

If Peggy was her own character and became a superhero through her own unique means then I'd put her squarely in the first group. Maybe in a vacuum or pre-2014 she could have taken Steve's serum (whoa that sounds racy, lol) and no one, myself included, would have batted an eye. Who knows. But in current year when a woman is given an existing male character's origin or powers then yes I think it's valid to acknowledge that that is in line with current "woke" trends. That's all.

But for this show IMO it cannot be denied that beyond replacing a cis white American male with a non-American female it *really did do a good job of telling a story with a genuinely likable, feminine and strong female.* That's MY primary takeaway, which is why I enjoyed it so much.

I guess, I haven't seen the original Masters of the Universe so Teela didn't really bother me, some of the dialogue was just a bit cringe. Koska Reeves holding her own against Boba didn't bother me, she's a Mandalorian, one of the greatest warriors in the galaxy. Ratcatcher 2 was fine, she's an interesting character imo and her power being ridiculously overpowerd makes sense because what can you do against thousands of rats lol.

But this isn't really sidelining Steve anyway, the intro even makes it clear that Steve becoming Captain America is what happened and is the main series of events. This show is just showing how one small decision can have a massive impact. Even in The First Avenger she was already a strong character and probably the second most interesting character in the movie next to Steve himself.

Main MCU Steve still existed, it still happened, if they went and basically erased that then it'd be dumb. Even in this timeline they still make Steve matter.

I agree that in many instances Hollywood can be pandering and trying to ride the politically correct culture wave but I just don't see this as one of those instances.

 

[Neal136]

Peggy has always been played as a badass ... especially if you've watched Agent Carter. If Steve couldn't take the serum, she has always been presented as the next logical choice. At least in regards to anyone who was in the room during that scene.

 

[Khev]

Peggy has always been played as a badass ... especially if you've watched Agent Carter.

And in TFA as well. Blowing away the HYDRA bad guys fleeing the lab, punching out the punk soldier during training, etc. All while still being feminine and rejecting ZE_501's favorite haircut.

 

[Sweet Rabbit]

First episode wasn’t too bad

 

[Dave_W]

Generic Scientist #3 as Captain America...now that's a story I want to see!