PT Changing How You View The OT

[Atom Hues]

On a different note I was watching Ep.3 a few months ago with my 3 year old son. He got a kick out of the fight scenes but I know he really didn't get what was going on. My question is... In a few years when I introduce him to SW, (B4 my wife can show him star trek) Do I show him The OT 1st or let him watch the Pt 1st and then the OT?:maul

The Eternal Quandry. I had the same question when showing a friend of mine the films. She's from the Czech Republic, and had never seen a single one. I actually had the thought that here was a great chance for a social experiment: show an adult the films in sequential order, and see what she made of them.

But, considering that the PT kinda takes all the "surprise!" out of the surprises in EMPIRE and RETURN OF THE JEDI, I decided to show her the films in the order they were released. She came back to me FLOORED by EMPIRE, wowing the whole time.

If you're taking a poll, I say that your lad needs to learn the Lucas Way to Count: 4,5,6,1,2,3.

 

[artistrex]

Yeah most of my friends have said the same. But I dunno I still kinda want to show him them 1-6. Oh well. As long as I keeo him away from Superman # I guess he'll grow up well adjusted. But that's another thread.

 

[D. Martin]

Stealing a page from Josh's manual of multi-quotes

This is opinion.

the acting but mostly the character development and not too good dialog. they were all pretty flat. didn't care about them. overuse of special effects to the point that it's more about being visually pretty instead of having substance. the plots were a bit unclear with the political aspects. The PT doesn't carry much emotional weight for me

This is the exact response, almost word for word, created by movie reviewers. Funny thing is, each and everyone of them said the same thing about the OT when it came out.

Too many special effects? Lucas has said from the beginning that he was limited by special effect technology. In 1983, when promoting ROTJ, Lucas said he has to wait until SXF evolve before he can go back because he can't tell the story without the advancements. That's not me finding excuses, its fact. If memory serves, it was stated in the 1983 Time magazine with ROTJ on the cover (I could be wrong), but it most certainly was a story in 1983.

As for the acting, have you watched the OT? Leia talking to Vader and the Moff on the Death Star? Hardly Oscar material. Han talking to Rieken about having a price on his head?

Don't even get me started on comparatively cheesy dialogue in the OT.

What's truly different from the PT and the OT is the audience. Plenty of people who grew up with the OT can't look at it realistically and they lack the ability to watch the PT with the same frame of mind they did when seeing the OT for the first time. The only kids I've ever heard dis the PT are the ones who have parents that dis it.

All the kids who have seen the films without any outside influence tend to love it.

and in some ways how it seemed like fanboy mentality had influenced Lucas. Like Anakin building C-3PO or Yoda hanging out with Chewbacca. totally goofy stuff. R2-D2 and C-3PO even being around wasn't needed. Obi-Wan doesn't remember R2 in ANH.

I really dug how these characters weren't all introduced in ANH. One really cool thing is, when you think about it, R2 and Vader never see each other again after Mustafar, so the PT added a really cool dynamic to the little droid.

 

[D. Martin]

You're reading too much into it. So he says hello to the droid. That means he noticed the droid and is friendly to droids.

And Leia gave orders to R2 to do his best so I guess R2-D2 figured he'd have a better chance if he said he's the property of Obi-Wan. Leia needs Old Ben. she wants him bad. Anyway, Obi-Wan doesn't remember R2.

I think he remembers R2 and is being Obi-Wan about it.

 

[Darthrazz]

I really wish that the PT had shown a bit more of Tarkin, and why he was able to be "holding Vader's leash" as Leia put it.

 

[D. Martin]

Alot of what you (Maulfan) are saying about Leia's memory of Padme and Obi-Wan recognizing the droids makes sense (to me at least) but technically speaking they are inconsistencies (to me at least). Take Leia's memory, her exact words don't contradict what could be her memories, but her words are misleading and I don't know any reason why she would phrase it that way to Luke. It makes more sense that she would say, "well I only saw pictures, but she always seemed sad" or something like that. But like I said I'm perfectly okay with the inconsistencies (although they did annoy me alot at first) and I find it fun to explain them and that's a really good explanation for that one.

When I was about 12, I was positive I had the rocket fire Fett, because I could clearly remember it. Thing is, that memory, despite how convincing it was, clearly couldn't have been real. My mind reflected the few images I had on card backs and more particularly the insert in my vinyl collector case and translated it to having owned it. Well, it was more of a feeling really.

If Leia saw images of her mom when she was young, she could easily have translated it into her memory to have images and feelings... Not to mention she might have been more empathic with the Force, and therefore had a better connection with Padme than Luke who had to struggle to keep his mind on where he was, what he was doing.

 

[Atom Hues]

I think he remembers R2 and is being Obi-Wan about it.

Back in the 90s, I had an red '89 Toyota Corolla, just like about 2 million other people on the road.

Nowadays, when I'm driving down the road and I see a red Toyota Corolla from that period, my first thought isn't "Hey, that's my old Toyota Corolla!"

Artoo units must be a dime-a-dozen in the SW universe. In the PHANTOM MENACE, amongst Amidala's astromech labor pool in her royal starship, there's another Artoo unit the exact same color as Artoo-Detoo.

I'm sure there's a million silver, white, and blue Artoo units in the galaxy. There's no reason for Obi-wan to assume that the one he finds with Luke is the same one as Anakin's.

Just a thought.

 

[D. Martin]

In the end for me as much as I liked the OT before the PT I like it WAY more now because of the PT. Much the same way I am with LOTR. I liked LOTR before the movies but once I saw the movies the light went on with what I was missing.

In 20 years, when kids have the opportunity to grow up with a six part Saga, the whole story will be look upon the same way the purists look at the OT. Only then will the PT get the props it deserves.

 

[D. Martin]

I agree. I think I mentioned it once before, probably in this thread, but maybe another, but after the PT I really love the part when Obi-Wan looks up at the screen and says, "Well hellow there." Because to me it is like being welcomed back by an old friend that's not been seen for 18 years.

Ex-act-ly!

 

[D. Martin]

How do you figure that. Obi-Wan tells Luke that Anakin was the best starpilot in the galaxy, a cunning warrior and a good friend, that sums up how GL portrayed PT Anakin to me.

Yeah, I agree with that. We met Ani when he was little, but he was already an excellent pilot, and Obi-Wan was amazed at how strong the force was with him.

In AOTC and ROTS, he proved himself to be a cunning warrior. (jumping out of the speeder to catch Zam Wessell), (cutting off Tyrannus' hands)

And finally, in the first scene of them together in AOTC it is certainly established that they are very good friends (and I want PFs of the pair in that elevator). Easily, this to me is one of the most important scenes in the Saga.

"You fell into that nightmare, Master, and I rescued you, remember?"

What Obi-wan said was true... from more than just a certain point of view.

I think the big problem people have in accepting the PT is that it didn't happen the way they imagined it would. They walked into the films unwilling to accept them as the official story. And that is what they are.

 

[The Josh]

Stealing a page from Josh's manual of multi-quotes

Very good job! I'll give you an A+ for the way you went about the multi-quote.

In 20 years, when kids have the opportunity to grow up with a six part Saga, the whole story will be look upon the same way the purists look at the OT. Only then will the PT get the props it deserves.

I agree. By then I'll be nearing 50 but will be quite happy to know the whole thing is finally getting the props it deserves.

 

[The Josh]

I think the big problem people have in accepting the PT is that it didn't happen the way they imagined it would. They walked into the films unwilling to accept them as the official story. And that is what they are.

That's always been how I've felt. People just not willing to accept Lucas didn't make it exactly the way they had dreamed. They decided "hate" for a lack of a better word was the way to go instead of just enjoying the ride.

 

[TheObsoleteMan]

I think what he's getting at is, the "Luke's father" that Ben is talking about is the one that existed at that stage in the writing. Meaning, Luke father, a Jedi Knight & ally of Kenobi who was ACTUALLY betrayed and murdered by a pupil of Ben's who turned to the Dark Side and helped hunt & kill Jedi Knights for the Empire. And NOT the version of Anakin that we ended up knowing and loving, after later versions of scripts were changed, modified, what have you.

Thank you. You're so much better at explaining this stuff than I am.

 

[MaulFan]

Fortunately, even with Ben sounding like he's referring to Vader and Anakin as 2 separate people, it still works per the overall story because Obi-Wan and Yoda both felt Luke needed to find out that truth at a certain point and ANH was far too soon as even in ROTJ, Yoda says of Luke in ESB, "then, not ready for the burden were you." If Ben were to speak of Anakin's death more faithful to the truth, Luke may have picked up on it, but by being coy, Luke knew enough to know Anakin was a good man, Darth Vader in some form was who killed Anakin, and that's all.

 

[D. Martin]

I went to each prequel completely open minded, knowing that what I was watching was the actual story I speculated on for 16 years. I never felt like Lucas was taking anything away from me, I always saw it as him giving to us all, what we always wanted. In the geekiest way imaginable, Lucas gave us closure and let us move on --somewhat--.

As a matter of fact, since no one here could possibly know this, I was talking pretty extensively with LFL in 2005 to film a documentary called "The Last Hurrah Of The Star Wars Generation". I had a $350, 000 budget, and it was so far in development that we had a full crew, hotels and airfares booked, and were negotiating with an undisclosed distributor for theatrical distribution. LFL pulled the plug at the zero hour because they were beginning a new marketing plan. I'm sure all y'all have heard about "Star Wars Is Forever". Clearly, a documentary that focused on closure didn't fit into that. I can't say I blame them, but it left me pretty deflated.

Star Wars collectors would have crapped over the marketing for the Last Hurrah. Our mock ups were super cool

 

[MaulFan]

I think the Prequels were what they were always meant to be once a back story was even under consideration, a wild ride with a grander scope that also gave us the proper background to key characters. The PT never could be like the OT because they're both too different in scope. The OT is a chess match and we watch 2 sides go at it until there's an ultimate conclusion. The PT is a grand adventure showing what life was like before the galaxy went to hell and how all of it could come about.

 

[Deak Starkiller]

I went to each prequel completely open minded, knowing that what I was watching was the actual story I speculated on for 16 years. I never felt like Lucas was taking anything away from me, I always saw it as him giving to us all, what we always wanted. In the geekiest way imaginable, Lucas gave us closure and let us move on --somewhat--.

As a matter of fact, since no one here could possibly know this, I was talking pretty extensively with LFL in 2005 to film a documentary called "The Last Hurrah Of The Star Wars Generation". I had a $350, 000 budget, and it was so far in development that we had a full crew, hotels and airfares booked, and were negotiating with an undisclosed distributor for theatrical distribution. LFL pulled the plug at the zero hour because they were beginning a new marketing plan. I'm sure all y'all have heard about "Star Wars Is Forever". Clearly, a documentary that focused on closure didn't fit into that. I can't say I blame them, but it left me pretty deflated.

Star Wars collectors would have crapped over the marketing for the Last Hurrah. Our mock ups were super cool

Anymore info Dave? Curious.

 

[Khev]

If you're taking a poll, I say that your lad needs to learn the Lucas Way to Count: 4,5,6,1,2,3.

Before my wife and I were married she had never seen the SW saga. So I had her watch them in this order: 4,5,1,2,3,6. I didn't want the surprise of ESB spoiled early but by the same token I didn't want the whole resolution of the saga spoiled before seeing the prequels.

So we watched Luke's story right up until Vader reveals who he really is. Then we watched the PT as sort of a "flashback interlude" before jumping back into Luke's adventure and the redemption of this much more fleshed out villain. Suddenly ROTJ has much bigger stakes and you *don't* know how it ends. Some old fans find controversy with the new ending of ROTJ, but my wife actually cried when young Anakin appeared before Luke in celebration of Luke's victory and the fall of the Empire.

 

[Atom Hues]

Fortunately, even with Ben sounding like he's referring to Vader and Anakin as 2 separate people, it still works per the overall story because Obi-Wan and Yoda both felt Luke needed to find out that truth at a certain point and ANH was far too soon as even in ROTJ, Yoda says of Luke in ESB, "then, not ready for the burden were you." If Ben were to speak of Anakin's death more faithful to the truth, Luke may have picked up on it, but by being coy, Luke knew enough to know Anakin was a good man, Darth Vader in some form was who killed Anakin, and that's all.

Here's where we get into the aspect of discussing STAR WARS on an 'interior level' or an 'exterior level'.

Interior level = "When Ben said this, he actually meant..."

Exterior level = "When George Lucas wrote Ben saying this, he actually meant.."

The two discussions are mutually exclusive. It's hard to discuss one when the rebuttal addresses the other.

You wrote "If Ben were to speak of Anakin's death more faithful to the truth, Luke may have picked up on it, but by being coy, Luke knew enough to know Anakin was a good man, Darth Vader in some form was who killed Anakin, and that's all".

That's a great rationalization to explain what was going on, from the perspective of an interior discussion of the story.

My point is, from an exterior perspective (which is where this discussion has led) you address what the creators were motivated to say and do.

The "truth" that Ben is referring to actually changed from 1977 to 1980. When Alec Guinness was given his script to memorize in 1976, Luke's father was killed by a bad Jedi named Vader; that's the extent of the Skywalker backstory. Since Ben's story to Luke is vague enough and free from details, when the filmmakers decide to change the 'truth' from "Luke's dad was killed by Vader" to "Luke's dad IS Vader", all the audience has to do is accept that Ben was keeping the truth from Luke for his own good.

Guys, I'm not trying to be a tool or anything. I'm just saying that it's A-OK to discuss retro-continuity character motivations, and what an OT character was actually 'thinking' now that we have PT events to compare them to. But the poster was actually adressing the fact (and it is a fact, a documented one) that Lucas changed his mind (which he has every right to do) after STAR WARS and before EMPIRE as to what the 'truth' of Ben's story was. Especially since that story change really doesn't require Ben's ANH tale to Luke to be altered; it just requires the audience to have a change-of-context in their perceptions.

The bottom line is: Lucas didn't have all of this written in stone from Day One. It's fun to come up with rationalizations to make it all work, but STAR WARS was a work-in-progress the whole way. Some stuff was concretely figured out early, some stuff was thought up down-the-road, and required some deft screen-writing and/or audience suspension-of-disbelief to blend seamlessly.

 

[TheObsoleteMan]

Some old fans find controversy with the new ending of ROTJ, but my wife actually cried when young Anakin appeared before Luke in celebration of Luke's victory and the fall of the Empire.

So did I...