R.I.P. Charlie Hebdo

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I still refuse to believe Hebdo are wholly innocent in all of this. That doesn't mean for one second that I condone the actions of those Muslim extremists.

It may be seen as 'satirical banter' to some or the majority, I don't know, but in reality we know it is going to offend and cause provocation amongst certain (sensitive) sections of the Islamic faith. This reaction to publications like this is not a new phenomena.

The debate on free speech, and who and when we can exercise that democratic right is fraught with complications, as I have posted above.

I just don't understand why we (Hebdo) would want to realistically cause unrest with this type of commentary, satirical or not.

agree


people don't really want peace. if they really do, they'll make compromise/sacrifice. its not a lot. most cartoon in newspaper are funnies. some are political but it doesn't need to be like this. just because the majority deem fit doesn't mean the other have to accept. for these minority, to accept is to sacrifice their belief/freedom to retaliate. people confuse this with freedom of speech and it is in some small sense. but the reality is do we really have this total freedom as we seem to believe we do? now a days, there's government structure like NSA spying, possible future policy that limit our freedom to smoke, drink, etc. like that bill that was strike down in nyc of limiting how much ounces in soft drink people can buy. illegal/legalizing of pot. its the people within this power structure/authority that have the real freedom.

of course this violence is sad. but is it new? no. in the us alone, there's school shooting, police killing, rioting/protesting. a lot of it is based on social unrest, inequality, etc.
 
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A great and insightful leader for the ages is always pertinent:
 

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These guys used to live with the American underwear bomber, they were allowed to post pics of themselves on facebook at a Yemen terrorist training camp shooting AK47's and bragging about how they were going to come back home and kill people and then they get back to France with weapons and cause this massacre and we are supposed to believe that French intelligence agencies or the NSA didn't know what they were gonna do and so couldnt prevent them ? Bulls**t ! This whole thing stinks just like 9/11.

That is the problem with conspiracy enthusiasm - it fills in the gaps that are most often the domain of human fallibility with notions of complicity and deceit.

I still refuse to believe Hebdo are wholly innocent in all of this. That doesn't mean for one second that I condone the actions of those Muslim extremists.

It may be seen as 'satirical banter' to some or the majority, I don't know, but in reality we know it is going to offend and cause provocation amongst certain (sensitive) sections of the Islamic faith. This reaction to publications like this is not a new phenomena.

The debate on free speech, and who and when we can exercise that democratic right is fraught with complications, as I have posted above.

I just don't understand why we (Hebdo) would want to realistically cause unrest with this type of commentary, satirical or not.

In refusing to believe Hebdo are wholly innocent in all of this means precisely that for one second you condone the actions of Muslim extremists. Unless what you meant to say is, "publishing cartoons deemed offensive to Islamic nutters is likely to draw a violent response because they are intolerant savages of the highest order".

What you call "provocation" is behaviour and commentary that lies within the realm of free speech. Never forget - never forget - that it is only "provocation" because those on the receiving end of this satire or commentary are the same group of people who threaten death to apostates.

Freedom of speech is not as fraught as your previous post makes out - you posted a threadbare report about the potential passage of an anti-terrorism bill. This is what debate in free societies is all about. The boundaries of free speech are not rigid, but subject to debate as to where the rights of those to speak impinge on the civil liberties of others. Generally this boundary is defined by incitement to violence - which is wholly different from "provocation".

This is a pertinent read, one that expresses my opinion far better than I could ever articulate it.

What everyone gets wrong about Charlie Hebdo and racism - Vox

It is an interesting article - but ultimately, despite its many caveats, is tantamount to victim-blaming. For example, the author writes that the "dual-layers" extant in many of the cartoons invite interpretations that empower racists. But this "dual-layering" of metaphor and imagery is one of the taxonomical elements of political cartooning. The writer implies that many of Hebdo's readers are too ignorant to "get" the joke - so that is somehow the fault of the satirists?

All of this is indignation is moot anyhow when one considers the paper's press run. 60 000? Really? So even if this is the most provocative, racist and divisive rag in all of France, a societal scourge that reinforces white hegemony... well that's quite an achievement for a print run that is 20% of either Le Monde or Le Figaro.

agree


people don't really want peace. if they really do, they'll make compromise/sacrifice. its not a lot. most cartoon in newspaper are funnies. some are political but it doesn't need to be like this. just because the majority deem fit doesn't mean the other have to accept. for these minority, to accept is to sacrifice their belief/freedom to retaliate. people confuse this with freedom of speech and it is in some small sense. but the reality is do we really have this total freedom as we seem to believe we do? now a days, there's government structure like NSA spying, possible future policy that limit our freedom to smoke, drink, etc. like that bill that was strike down in nyc of limiting how much ounces in soft drink people can buy. illegal/legalizing of pot. its the people within this power structure/authority that have the real freedom.

of course this violence is sad. but is it new? no. in the us alone, there's school shooting, police killing, rioting/protesting. a lot of it is based on social unrest, inequality, etc.

How exactly does one "sacrifice their belief/freedom to retaliate" by ignoring a statement or drawing, or answering in kind? If I offend you, or your religion, how are you "sacrificing your beliefs"? How am I denying your "freedom to retaliate"?

I will keep saying this until you can understand the profundity of the statement: democracy does not work without freedom of speech. You are conflating provocation with incitement to violence. And yet the only reason you can conflate these is because we have a group, the Islamic extremists, who respond to offence with unspeakable violence. So, because we have a group who will kill you if you offend them, then somehow it is the fault of those who speak the offence and not the fault of those who perpetrate the grossly and despicably disproportionate response?

How contemptuous and pathetic that one should have to silence oneself under pain of death. I am offended by your sentiments. But should you not post your opinion here on my account?
 
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Cease publications that would further provoke an irrational, bat **** crazy organization of psychopaths and live

vs.

Eat a bunch of bullets in my office before lunch time over a couple of ****** cartoons and die before I even knew what hit me


Tough call, touch call.
 
Cease publications that would further provoke an irrational, bat **** crazy organization of psychopaths and live

vs.

Eat a bunch of bullets in my office before lunch time over a couple of ****** cartoons and die before I even knew what hit me


Tough call, touch call.

Indeed. And yet the surviving staff at Charlie Hebdo have chosen principle over regard for personal safety in publishing the current edition. That's some seriously big kahunas.
 
So, because we have a group who will kill you if you offend them, then somehow it is the fault of those who speak the offence and not the fault of those who perpetrate the grossly and despicably disproportionate response?

What interests and concerns me most with the debate over free speech and offending people is that instead of discussing what should and shouldn't be allowed the more direct issue of how one deals with being offended should be brought up.

Everybody is offended in life, it's not necessarily a daily occurrence but it's an occurrence that is part of our nature. Rather than hiding the offending thing away so as not to offend people what should happen, and what has for most of the world, is dealing with that offence in the proper manner.

For example in a workplace two men are chatting, one is talking about his significant other and ends the sentence with "Ugh Women!". Now a neighbouring female co-worker overhears this and is offended by this phrase as she feels he's generalising her gender.

Let's look at her options for dealing with this offence.

Firstly she could simply choose to ignore it and let it roll off her back, sure she might seethe a bit but she bites her tongue.

Secondly since it's a workplace the company guideline state she should take any complaints to her superior so lodging a complaint is her second option.

Her third option is to confront the Man and ask what he means by that phrase and to inform him that she is offended by it.

Her fourth choice is to file a suit against him for sexual harassment, this would be unlikely as it wouldn't be considered harassment under the law and was not directed at her.

And finally her fifth option is to murder him for offending her.

Now let's say a Man is watching Porn on speaker on a Bus with people of differing faiths and morals and even Children present.

Following the same structure the first option would be to ignore it until they get off at their stop, secondly would be to inform the driver who would ask him to turn it off, thirdly would be for someone or some people to ask him to turn it off and inform him how inappropriate and offensive it is to view in public, next for someone or some people to get into a physical altercation with him about the offence, and finally to flat out murder him for causing such offence.

These are generally the steps most would go through in most countries with these examples, not always in the same order but 99% of the time without resorting to the final option.

If Jesus is depicted in satire I'm sure many would complain to the party responsible, as would those of the Jewish faith for satirising Moses.

To the best of my knowledge Extremist Muslims are the only ones in this day and age who go right to the final option of Murder.

Is it "wrong" to depict Mohammed? That depends on who you ask. But ask the majority of the population of the world is it wrong to murder in retaliation for being offended and the answer would be yes.

Civilised society would nearly always choose the most peaceful option for dealing with someone who offended them.
 
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Personally, I'd just call it quits at this point. There isn't much more to say that hasn't already been said. I wouldn't view them as cowards or "losers" by ceasing publications and I doubt the world would either. The messages have been sent before and after the killings, the world knows.

Life > Death

Unless we're are at the point where we're all in danger of being slaves to some form of massive tyranny where we lose our freedoms, I don't think it's necessarily worth dying over a bunch of political cartoons that bother a group of whack jobs. I'll take living to see another day over some melodramatic martyrdom where I die over an ideal. We're not at that point yet and let's hope we never are. I mean, they're dangerous enough without being provoked, I don't think it is particularly wise to continue to fuel those flames. They'll get theirs in the end, they always do. Yeah, yeah, freedom of speech and freedom of the press, I get and respect that when it's necessary. Unfortunately words and drawings aren't going to defeat these guys (or other organizations like them) in the long run.
 
Check out the eBay completed sales listings for the latest edition. One English copy was sold to day for £100k.
 
Pfft, beheadings are much more civilized than sitting down and talking about your issues.
 
An international circle jerk could bring about peace?
 
I prefer the privacy of my own home, but for world peace it's worth coming together.
 
These guys used to live with the American underwear bomber, they were allowed to post pics of themselves on facebook at a Yemen terrorist training camp shooting AK47's and bragging about how they were going to come back home and kill people and then they get back to France with weapons and cause this massacre and we are supposed to believe that French intelligence agencies or the NSA didn't know what they were gonna do and so couldnt prevent them ? Bulls**t ! This whole thing stinks just like 9/11.

Sluggie???
 
I still refuse to believe Hebdo are wholly innocent in all of this. That doesn't mean for one second that I condone the actions of those Muslim extremists.

It may be seen as 'satirical banter' to some or the majority, I don't know, but in reality we know it is going to offend and cause provocation amongst certain (sensitive) sections of the Islamic faith. This reaction to publications like this is not a new phenomena.

The debate on free speech, and who and when we can exercise that democratic right is fraught with complications, as I have posted above.

I just don't understand why we (Hebdo) would want to realistically cause unrest with this type of commentary, satirical or not.

From what I understand, they were the hardest on the Catholics, yet you don't see any group of Jesuits going in and machine gunning them down in the name of Jesus.
 
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