tomandshell
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This is hard. Is the strongest of the PT better than the weakest of the OT?
Saga Madness: Round 2 (Final Four) - ROTJ vs ROTS
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Seretur
Elf
For what it's worth (and it's 3 AM here, and I've worked all day, and I don't know why, but posting in forums is a great post-work exercise for me), I have to come to the argument of story structure again.
ROTJ is imbalanced. The entire half-hour spent on Jabba, however interesting in itself, basically serves to get the storyline back to square one -- to return all our characters to that happy place of camaraderie where we left them back at the end of ANH. Cue much friendly backslapping, "Who's coming with me to our Next Great Adventure?" "I am!" "I am!" "And I am, too!" and here we go again, and against yet another Death Star to boot.
It's only after the first hour (and three mentor/apprentice discussions that follow on the heels of one another, making the post-Jabba part of the movie come to a dynamic standstill) that we get to Endor, and the proper storytelling, whatever you might think of Ewoks. You get the multiple, intertwined storylines of the ground battle, space battle, and the battle for the Skywalker souls, and it's all good. But the movie took its time getting there, and the way this storyline was achieved wasn't exactly ingenious.
(The Jabba bit might be integrated a bit more skillfully if the rumored scene of Vader's mental conversation with Luke is reinstated at the beginning of the film. So far, all we have to go on is the cue John Williams wrote for it, available on all the post-1977 reissues of the complete score CD.)
ROTS, on the other hand, also begins with an almost self-contained action sequence, but this one actually sets up all the plotlines of the movie to follow. It, also, proceeds to feature a brief lull in the action with the successive Coruscant scenes, but they tighten the conflict even further, and serve as a bit of a respite from the mad capers that preceded them. And then -- after Yoda gets to Kashyyyk, Obi-Wan arrives at Utapau, and Anakin learns the true identity of Palpatine -- we get the most sustained case of parallel storytelling in the entire career of George Lucas, and for the most part, he pulls it off so masterfully that I have no problem calling this his greatest directorial achievement yet.
His early films -- student experimental shorts, THX 1138 and especially American Grafitti -- indicated his proclivity towards this kind of editorial juxtapositions and intertwined narratives. But never before has he managed to have each of these storylines be as resonant visually and emotionally, and never before has he been able to structure them to play with and against each other in so many exciting and satisfying ways.
Be it the overall structure, or a layered sequence like Order 66, or a contrasted case of parallel editing like the birth of Vader/birth of the Twins, ROTS offers the most mature direction in the career of George Lucas. It feels like a well-tuned orchestra performance of a grand symphonic movement -- which is all the more surprising in the light of the uncomfortably disjointed AOTC, its immediate predecessor.
ROTJ is imbalanced. The entire half-hour spent on Jabba, however interesting in itself, basically serves to get the storyline back to square one -- to return all our characters to that happy place of camaraderie where we left them back at the end of ANH. Cue much friendly backslapping, "Who's coming with me to our Next Great Adventure?" "I am!" "I am!" "And I am, too!" and here we go again, and against yet another Death Star to boot.
It's only after the first hour (and three mentor/apprentice discussions that follow on the heels of one another, making the post-Jabba part of the movie come to a dynamic standstill) that we get to Endor, and the proper storytelling, whatever you might think of Ewoks. You get the multiple, intertwined storylines of the ground battle, space battle, and the battle for the Skywalker souls, and it's all good. But the movie took its time getting there, and the way this storyline was achieved wasn't exactly ingenious.
(The Jabba bit might be integrated a bit more skillfully if the rumored scene of Vader's mental conversation with Luke is reinstated at the beginning of the film. So far, all we have to go on is the cue John Williams wrote for it, available on all the post-1977 reissues of the complete score CD.)
ROTS, on the other hand, also begins with an almost self-contained action sequence, but this one actually sets up all the plotlines of the movie to follow. It, also, proceeds to feature a brief lull in the action with the successive Coruscant scenes, but they tighten the conflict even further, and serve as a bit of a respite from the mad capers that preceded them. And then -- after Yoda gets to Kashyyyk, Obi-Wan arrives at Utapau, and Anakin learns the true identity of Palpatine -- we get the most sustained case of parallel storytelling in the entire career of George Lucas, and for the most part, he pulls it off so masterfully that I have no problem calling this his greatest directorial achievement yet.
His early films -- student experimental shorts, THX 1138 and especially American Grafitti -- indicated his proclivity towards this kind of editorial juxtapositions and intertwined narratives. But never before has he managed to have each of these storylines be as resonant visually and emotionally, and never before has he been able to structure them to play with and against each other in so many exciting and satisfying ways.
Be it the overall structure, or a layered sequence like Order 66, or a contrasted case of parallel editing like the birth of Vader/birth of the Twins, ROTS offers the most mature direction in the career of George Lucas. It feels like a well-tuned orchestra performance of a grand symphonic movement -- which is all the more surprising in the light of the uncomfortably disjointed AOTC, its immediate predecessor.
At one time I would have went with Sith. But like all the PT films it just does not have the lasting power of the OT films. I think I am going with Jedi. But these two films are not far apart IMO.
King Darkness
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Come on Sith, you're just 4 votes behind!
Get in there and knock this old ass Jedi out!
Get in there and knock this old ass Jedi out!
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jedi .
Starts crowd chant
"Let's go Jedi!!! Let's go Jedi!!!! Let's go Jedi!!! You can do it!!!"
"Let's go Jedi!!! Let's go Jedi!!!! Let's go Jedi!!! You can do it!!!"
D
DarthNeil
Guest
Gimme an S----- S
Gimme an I------ I
Gimme a T------- T
Gimme a H------- H
What's that spell?... SITH... SITH... GO
SITH!
Gimme an I------ I
Gimme a T------- T
Gimme a H------- H
What's that spell?... SITH... SITH... GO
SITH!
BDboystoys
Super Freak
Return of the Jedi easily.
Both films have their faults but the OT always wins.
Both films have their faults but the OT always wins.
Revenge of the Sith without a doubt. Jedi followed one of the greatest movies in history, which had one of the most shocking revelations in history and victories that the heroes had to truly earn with every fiber of their being and gave us basically a retread of ANH but with ewoks.
ROTJ was also the beginning of the "Oh you're related to Vader, yeah well so am I" shtick that permeated throughout every one of the prequels as well.
ROTS followed the two least favorite films of the saga with a slam dunk that reminded everyone why we loved SW, reminded everyone why we even wanted a PT, and did so masterfully. It returned an intensity and dramatic weight to the saga and reminded you why the villains are so bad and the heroes are worth routing for.
It also showed that a film *can* live up to ridiculously unrealistic expectations, and exceed them. Anakin's turn, the Clone Wars, and the Mustafar battle really were everything and more than I ever imagined them to be since the time I was a child.
The sky was the limit when ESB ended. ROTJ will always be cool, and it has so much wonderful nostalgia, but oh what a missed opportunity.
ROTJ was also the beginning of the "Oh you're related to Vader, yeah well so am I" shtick that permeated throughout every one of the prequels as well.
ROTS followed the two least favorite films of the saga with a slam dunk that reminded everyone why we loved SW, reminded everyone why we even wanted a PT, and did so masterfully. It returned an intensity and dramatic weight to the saga and reminded you why the villains are so bad and the heroes are worth routing for.
It also showed that a film *can* live up to ridiculously unrealistic expectations, and exceed them. Anakin's turn, the Clone Wars, and the Mustafar battle really were everything and more than I ever imagined them to be since the time I was a child.
The sky was the limit when ESB ended. ROTJ will always be cool, and it has so much wonderful nostalgia, but oh what a missed opportunity.
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tomandshell said:This is hard. Is the strongest of the PT better than the weakest of the OT?
Pretty much the same way I feel. There are some amazing moments in both. I remember acting out Luke getting Sith Lightning in my room as a kid. I had my green light up saber.
But I'll never forget watching ROTS at the midnight showing and just having tingles the whole time.
An interesting element of this matchup is that ROTS actually made ROTJ a lot *better*. Luke's entrance to Jabba's palace is much more ominous after seeing the results when Anakin made a similar arrival at the Mustafar bunker, the revelation of Leia being Luke's sister doesn't seem like such a quick fix cop out anymore, and the final Luke/Vader duel is much more poignant, from Luke taking the "high ground" (to which Vader wisely throws his blade instead of himself this time) to Vader's last chance to choose his side while Palpatine electrocutes a Jedi.
Great points Khev. I had never thought about the "high ground" connection between ROTS and ROTJ. Way to go! 
D
DarthNeil
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Khev said:
Excellent points---- some real nice analysis of the two "third" parts...
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I'm stuck with the contemplation of ROTJ is the better movie, but ROTS is the more entertaining movie. I don't know if I can even vote in this poll because I just don't know what movie I like more.
KitFisto
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I ended up going with Jedi. The Luke/Vader/Emperor scene did it for more. That music and then Vader FINALLY turning on the Emperor to save Luke. I remember sitting the the theater almost screaming at Vader to do SOMETHING to save Luke while he was looking back and forth trying to decide.
I watched them both, back to back, last night with my boys and I gotta say that definitely agree with my original vote. JEDI JEDI JEDI!
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