Star Wars: Ahsoka

[chrisstbh]

Thrawn was great in Rebels and if he’s anywhere near as good in this then I see no problem .

 

[Ramatuelle]

Thrawn was great in Rebels and if he’s anywhere near as good in this then I see no problem .

You bring up an interesting point.

Is it even possible for him to be as good in this as he was in Rebels? After all, Rebels is animation. And THAT is the place where Lucasfilm puts the heavy-hitting stuff.

Speaking in general, for instance find me ONE MOMENT in Mando season 3 that was ONE TENTH AS IMPORTANT OR MEANINGFUL as TBB's "The Solitary Clone" or "Plan 99." Or some of Rebels. NOT ONE MOMENT will you find. Even if you hate Rebels or TBB you cant do it.

This is a sad indictment of Lucasfilm's live action efforts, but thats where we are now.

 

[jye4ever]

You bring up an interesting point.

Is it even possible for him to be as good in this as he was in Rebels? After all, Rebels is animation. And THAT is the place where Lucasfilm puts the heavy-hitting stuff.

Speaking in general, for instance find me ONE MOMENT in Mando season 3 that was ONE TENTH AS IMPORTANT OR MEANINGFUL as TBB's "The Solitary Clone" or "Plan 99." Or some of Rebels. NOT ONE MOMENT will you find. Even if you hate Rebels or TBB you cant do it.

This is a sad indictment of Lucasfilm's live action efforts, but thats where we are now.

Live action will always trump cartoons, ALWAYS!

Mando’s flying in jet pack formation battles have been around for a long time in animation…IRRELEVANT!

Mando’s flying in jet pack formation battles in Mando S3 ep 8…EPIC!

I don’t hate animation but live action always takes precedent in my brain.

I don’t compare to animation when watching live action I compare to other live action.

Same will apply for Thrawn.

 

[Ramatuelle]

But Mandos flying around with their jetpacks is not emotionally engaging to me. Cool, yes but something that makes me think, that makes me care about that character.... Its not that.

Lucasfilm drags Boba Fett out of the sarlacc, returning him to current canon and practically making us stand on our chairs in awe: live-action priceless.

Lucasfilm showing hardened clone warriors undergoing huge personal changes and horrible losses? Priceless.

Ahsoka having to fight her former mentor to the death? People had big feelings. I hate Rebels but priceless.

Lizzo, Jack Black and Force-flippin' Grogu: not priceless. Little House on Navarro: not priceless. And the fact that that was live action does not increase its cool factor, which hovers in the neighborhood of zero.

 

[jaztermareal]

I find the cartoons to mostly be childish nonsense (did a re-watch of 2008 clone wars series to see if it was better on re-viewing but nope, Bad Bad 1 and 2 were almost exclusively silly side quest filler episodes and cringe too) but agree that they have moments or specific episodes that exceed Disney live action shows (except Andor). TBOBF, OWK and Mando s3 (1 and 2 to lesser extent) are just lowest common denominator trash for the most part.

I hope Disney can turn things around and produce good live action Star Wars as a rule. If they can keep the kid stuff in the cartoons and allow the live action stuff to be mature that will help a lot (Lizzo and Jack Black guest starring in an animated show is far less damaging and easy to ignore)

 

[a-dev]

Live action will always trump cartoons, ALWAYS!

I mean it should, and I just can't seem to motivate myself to watch actual cartoons but I hear that oftentimes the cartoons are better, and given the standards of so much of the live action - the PT, the ST, BOBF, Obi-Wan, most of Mando S3 - I'm not entirely surprised if it's the case.

I just don't care enough about Star Wars anymore to find that out for myself. It's funny, I was probably the biggest SW fan in my family - certainly the only one to assemble a massive toy collection from it - and yet today my brothers watch everything, cartoons included, whereas I'm the slowest to watch the live-action stuff and don't watch the animation at all.

With Star Wars it's all about the past for me. It ties into me wanting to scale back my toy collection (and any ongoing collecting) to that era you spoke of before, the great vacuum of 1983-1997 (well, the Special Editions were a good time in a way, ill-advised though so many of the changes were). Therefore it's in my interest to be less interested in ongoing Star Wars.

 

[chrisstbh]

I mean it should

Why should it? There's such a stigma surrounding animation that people think you can't have quality content within that medium, it's weird. Some of the best shows and movies ever made are animated.

 

[a-dev]

Why should it? There's such a stigma surrounding animation that people think you can't have quality content within that medium, it's weird. Some of the best shows and movies ever made are animated.

Because Star Wars began as live action. That's the medium where the most important stuff should go. It shouldn't be left for cartoons to fill in vital stuff like the breakdown of Anakin and Obi-Wan's relationship and making Anakin's turn to the darkside plausible - the prequel movies should have done that.

 

[chrisstbh]

Because Star Wars began as live action. That's the medium where the most important stuff should go. It shouldn't be left for cartoons to fill in vital stuff like the breakdown of Anakin and Obi-Wan's relationship and making Anakin's turn to the darkside plausible - the prequel movies should have done that.

So..? I completely disagree with that point of view. If you have something against animation that’s on you and you alone. Can’t hold it agains the franchise/creatives if you’re not even willing to give it a chance…

Sure, the movies should be be good but that doesn’t mean animated shows and movies can’t contain important info and be integral to the overall story.

 

[a-dev]

That's fine.

 

[jaztermareal]

Lucas was of the opinion that live action trumped all. Cartoons were in a lesser canon, as they are usually more kid focused and Lucas was happy to retcon them whenever he saw fit as only the live action stuff was truly canon. Same as how video games were not truly canon (remember how ridiculously OP characters in games were?) They were sort of all what if scenarios.

These other mediums can be good absolutely but should only be supplementary to a prime live action canon.


When Disney declared everything they release (except visions) to be canon that opened a huge can of worms with stuff like hyperspace whales etc becoming part of the same level of canon as the live action stuff. A lot of people do not take kindly to silly stuff like that being shoved into the prime canon as it just dilutes it.


We should be getting incredible live action with some good animated stuff to supplement it and bring children into the fandom, we should not have the cartoons canon becoming prime live action canon. Disney has it back asswards.

 

[Ramatuelle]

But animated bypasses many live-action hurdles, and they are big ones:

*the inclusion of aliens which would be live-action costuming nightmares. And said animated aliens are not bound by the action-based strictures presented by human stuntpeople.

*No puppets.

*We can have 50,000 clones without having to de-age Tem Morrison 50,000 times

*We can have Legacy characters that we dont have to de-age such as Hamill and Ford

What can be shown onscreen is literally unlimited.

Live action should be better? But ah.... IS IT BETTER? Is it really, really really? You going to tell me the ST is good? Its live action, but good is another thing. Is the Mandalorian Mad Hatter Tea Party good?

Jaz: ... Bad Bad 1 and 2 were almost exclusively silly side quest filler episodes and cringe too) but agree that they have moments or specific episodes that exceed Disney live action shows (except Andor). TBOBF, OWK and Mando s3 (1 and 2 to lesser extent) are just lowest common denominator trash for the most part.

Do TBB and TCW have plenty of filler? You betcha they do. I'm not thrilled about that, either. And then you get an episode here and there that is exactly what you want to see in a SW show. Something that resonates and you have big feelings about. This is usually more than we get in any live-action offering. And that's why I watch it. In animation, I get way fewer cute critters. Strange but true!

 

[chrisstbh]

Lucas was of the opinion that live action trumped all. Cartoons were in a lesser canon, as they are usually more kid focused and Lucas was happy to retcon them whenever he saw fit as only the live action stuff was truly canon. Same as how video games were not truly canon (remember how ridiculously OP characters in games were?) They were sort of all what if scenarios.

The Clone Wars was always hard canon and Lucas was directly involved with the show back then. The old Legends EU was a mess, anyone could make basically whatever they wanted and it didn't have to be coherrant.

Nothing should trump anything, it should all be treated equally and fall under one unified vision. Sure whenever there's new live action stuff that's the big event or whatever but I'm happy with new animated shows, games, comics, novels etc. playing an important role in the lore and stories that are happening.

These other mediums can be good absolutely but should only be supplementary to a prime live action canon.

Congrats, that's one of the worst takes I've ever read.

When Disney declared everything they release (except visions) to be canon that opened a huge can of worms with stuff like hyperspace whales etc becoming part of the same level of canon as the live action stuff. A lot of people do not take kindly to silly stuff like that being shoved into the prime canon as it just dilutes it.

And the galaxy and lore is so huge that you can largely ignore the stuff you don't like. I don't like whatever the hell this thing is so I simply just do not think about it. That's some silly **** being shoved into "prime canon" directly from live action.

We should be getting incredible live action with some good animated stuff to supplement it and bring children into the fandom, we should not have the cartoons canon becoming prime live action canon. Disney has it back asswards.

And there lies the problem, animation isn't exclusively for children, and it shouldn't be treated that way. I'd rather the animated content be important instead of it just being a simple entry point for someones kid. Good luck to anyone watching this show that hasn't watched TCW or Rebels just because they have some weird prejudice against animation.

 

[Otomofan]

I hope Disney can turn things around and produce good live action Star Wars as a rule.

After this many years, it's very apparent Disney is incapable of producing a live action TV show that we all like. (I think S1 and 2 of Mando certainly fit that bill, but they either couldn't sustain it or they chose not to.)

You've got Andor on one end, which artsy-fartsy nerds like, but would put kids and casuals to sleep in five minutes.

On the other end you've got the sub-80 IQ highjinks of Boba Fett and the Radical Vespa Gang and The Adventures of Kid Princess Leia in the Forest.

When they try to compromise somewhere in the middle, the result is the 40 minute slog of Dr. Pershing vs the Mind Flayer. Which wasn't highbrow enough to touch Andor's boots, and was so boring and dull there's no way a kid could stay awake through it without ritalin.

So I say to Disney....fool me once...shame.....shame on.....can't get fooled again!

 

[Wor-Gar]

If you look at Disney's history, Disney was good at making cartoons. And amusement parks. That's about it as far as consistency.

 

[jaztermareal]

The Clone Wars was always hard canon and Lucas was directly involved with the show back then. The old Legends EU was a mess, anyone could make basically whatever they wanted and it didn't have to be coherrant.

Nothing should trump anything, it should all be treated equally and fall under one unified vision. Sure whenever there's new live action stuff that's the big event or whatever but I'm happy with new animated shows, games, comics, novels etc. playing an important role in the lore and stories that are happening.

Congrats, that's one of the worst takes I've ever read.

And the galaxy and lore is so huge that you can largely ignore the stuff you don't like. I don't like whatever the hell this thing is so I simply just do not think about it. That's some silly **** being shoved into "prime canon" directly from live action.

View attachment 637412

And there lies the problem, animation isn't exclusively for children, and it shouldn't be treated that way. I'd rather the animated content be important instead of it just being a simple entry point for someones kid. Good luck to anyone watching this show that hasn't watched TCW or Rebels just because they have some weird prejudice against animation.

I get that you are very defensive about cartoons because you enjoy them and likely grew up with them, which is fine and Claude (or whatever that wang-worm alien is called) is indeed stupid, that is why I said Disney is failing, they are messing up everything on every level more or less.

And I should add, yes, Star Wars cartoons really are silly and childish for the most part. They just are. They are a ratio of 90% childish adventures and cutesy filler with 10% actual good content most of the time.

I did also previously state that they have moments of greatness and maturity but the amount of stupid and filler you have to sit through makes it it like slogging entire rivers of poo searching for the occasional gold nugget.

That is not to say animation cannot be mature or great entertainment for adults, it is siimply that Disney will never make good mature cartoons, they just have the occasional good episode in a show full of cutesy kid friendly filler and bad voice acting.

Also, no prejudice against animation, Jin Roh (one of my all time favourite movies) for example was a great, mature, and beautiful animated movie definitely made for an adult audience. You mistake criticism of Star Wars cartoons for prejudice against animation in general, you are merely strawmanning in that. I do prefer Live action over animation for things that started live action, but well done animation will win me over (like with Jin Roh being far superior to Red Spectacles and Stray Dog which are really actually kinda terrible movies despite being live action).

If Disney could separate the kid friendly from the adult targeted stuff I think we would all be happy but they refuse to do so. that is why TBB was a painful slog to get to 2-3 decent episodes and Mando s3 had Grogu hagging babu fricks and dinner with Lizzo. They try to cater to everyone but end just not really catering to anyone (like a jack of all trades, master of none).


EDIT: IIRC Lucas Considered Clone Wars canon but not same level as live action. he had tiers, live action at top, animation below, novels, games, comics etc below that. So yes, live action trumps all.

 

[jaztermareal]

After this many years, it's very apparent Disney is incapable of producing a live action TV show that we all like. (I think S1 and 2 of Mando certainly fit that bill, but they either couldn't sustain it or they chose not to.)

You've got Andor on one end, which artsy-fartsy nerds like, but would put kids and casuals to sleep in five minutes.

On the other end you've got the sub-80 IQ highjinks of Boba Fett and the Radical Vespa Gang and The Adventures of Kid Princess Leia in the Forest.

When they try to compromise somewhere in the middle, the result is the 40 minute slog of Dr. Pershing vs the Mind Flayer. Which wasn't highbrow enough to touch Andor's boots, and was so boring and dull there's no way a kid could stay awake through it without ritalin.

So I say to Disney....fool me once...shame.....shame on.....can't get fooled again!

Yeah, when I said hope, I meant it hope. My expectation though is that will drive the franchise further into the ground.

Hope for the best, expect the worst.

 

[jaztermareal]

But animated bypasses many live-action hurdles, and they are big ones:

*the inclusion of aliens which would be live-action costuming nightmares. And said animated aliens are not bound by the action-based strictures presented by human stuntpeople.

*No puppets.

*We can have 50,000 clones without having to de-age Tem Morrison 50,000 times

*We can have Legacy characters that we dont have to de-age such as Hamill and Ford

What can be shown onscreen is literally unlimited.

Live action should be better? But ah.... IS IT BETTER? Is it really, really really? You going to tell me the ST is good? Its live action, but good is another thing. Is the Mandalorian Mad Hatter Tea Party good?



Do TBB and TCW have plenty of filler? You betcha they do. I'm not thrilled about that, either. And then you get an episode here and there that is exactly what you want to see in a SW show. Something that resonates and you have big feelings about. This is usually more than we get in any live-action offering. And that's why I watch it. In animation, I get way fewer cute critters. Strange but true!

Live action can overcome those hurdles too with modern tech, and it is getting easier and cheaper as time goes on, but sure animation can depict literally ANYTHING, which begs the question, why so much poor storytelling and filler? Why so many uninspired character designs (like the trandoshan lady or Wanda Sykes characters)? Why so few Alien looking planets? Felucia was really cool, why couldn't the Bad Batch hang out there?

The problem is that animation is not being fully utilised by Disney to tell good stories, because no matter how much you, I or others think of animation as purely a format Disney will always view it as something that attracts kids (kids do like animation after all) so will always make shows (even ones set during the purge/dark times) full of kid friendly stuff and never allow the stories to truly deepen. they will offer the token gesture episodes but that is it. Of course, The ST, Kenobi, TBOBF, Mandalorian (especially s3) etc show that they will do the same to almost everything they touch (except Andor somehow, must be a fluke).

 

[ajp4mgs]

I'm in total agreement with those saying that SW live action trumps SW animation. It is, and will always be, a live-action cinematic franchise to me. The other mediums are supplementary and even unnecessary.

In general, the broader appeal of live action is easy to understand: We are not cartoons, and we don't live in cartoon environments. A big part of the "magic" of Star Wars is the fusion of fantasy with reality. That's what live action allows, whereas animation can't be anything other than strictly fantasy.

Also, there's a reason why countless documentaries about ILM have been made for people to marvel at the artistry and craft that goes into making fantasy seem real. Watching real people in real environments interact with aliens, spaceships, lightsabers, laser blasts, etc. is inherently cooler than watching cartoon people interact with animated equivalents. And knowing what kind of skill and effort it takes to pull that off enhances the value of it.

Before cinema and television, stage plays had more appeal than puppet shows. It's because of the same fundamental reason: without some sort of tether to our observable reality, there's a natural inclination to regard the material as being too silly. Fine for kids, not so much for anyone else.

Cartoons are intrinsically silly because they only exist in a realm of exaggerated fantasy. That's why animation is so effective for adult satire such as South Park. That show works way better in animation than any live-action equivalent could ever hope to because they utilize the intrinsic silliness to their benefit. SW shouldn't be trying to embrace silliness, IMO. Use *some* silliness? Sure. Be cartoony? No. That's why the phrase "live-action cartoon" is usually meant to be derogatory.

 

[Otomofan]

Excellent points.

I also think that's why "realistic" animation like the rotoscoping used in "A Scanner Darkly" or the mo-cap CGI in "Polar Express" were off-putting to audiences. Animation is supposed to look fantastical.

Of course, I think the lines have been blurred the last 20 years or so. So much of "live action" movies these days are just computer animation that I consider them cartoons. Most of the MCU stuff is cartoons. "Endgame" was a cartoon. "Avatar" was a cartoon. That "live action" Lion King? How in the world is that not considered a cartoon? I don't think there's any actual non-digital elements in the entire movie...not even the backgrounds?