Star Wars: Episode IX - THE RISE OF SKYWALKER

Collector Freaks Forum

Help Support Collector Freaks Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Yeah and for the most part we did too. When I saw ROTJ as a kid I certainly didn't immediately do the math that Leia being Luke's sister totally contradicted ESB nor did I mico-analyze Vader's sudden about face and just assumed that it was planned that way all along and just rolled with it and enjoyed all the things that you mentioned.

*Something* didn't feel right but thankfully it didn't become obvious until years later which allowed ROTJ to survive on Jabba, Leia's bikini, cool space pew pews and all that in order to become an icon of its own.

Even today I don't gnash my teeth while watching it and just enjoy it for what it is, but it also helps me to not freak out about every little thing done wrong in the ST either since as has been said many times, SW stopped being perfect in 1983 so why expect it to be so going forward.
 
Last edited:
I've argued on this forum in the past something along the lines of Vader switching into a contemplative mode after his first meeting with the son he thought had never been born....but I dunno. Why would he become so passive after having been so determined and man of action in ESB....it seemed like he had plans, why did he drop them?
 
I've argued on this forum in the past something along the lines of Vader switching into a contemplative mode after his first meeting with the son he thought had never been born....but I dunno. Why would he become so passive after having been so determined and man of action in ESB....
I know right and--hey look over there! Leia's hot and the second Death Star is operational! :rock

That's the best way to appreciate ROTJ in a nutshell IMO. Let go of how you think it should have gone and just enjoy it for what it is (since what it is is still pretty darn entertaining.)
 
Last edited:
ROTJ Vader going up to see the Emperor:

1623886151900.gif
 
You guys have some issues of drawing up things in your head then being entitled for those things to happen and staying bitter all these years later. Let it go. Vader was handled perfectly in ROTJ.

The first time I saw the movies I binged watch them in like 2005. They made sense to kid me and adult me and the little contradictions are easily explained away.
 
You guys have some issues of drawing up things in your head then being entitled for those things to happen and staying bitter all these years later. Let it go. Vader was handled perfectly in ROTJ.
You guys have some issues of drawing up things in your head then being entitled for those things to happen and staying bitter all these years later. Let it go. Luke was handled perfectly in TLJ.

''That's different''

 
I've argued on this forum in the past something along the lines of Vader switching into a contemplative mode after his first meeting with the son he thought had never been born....but I dunno. Why would he become so passive after having been so determined and man of action in ESB....it seemed like he had plans, why did he drop them?
After proposing to "rule the galaxy as father and son," Vader watched Luke plunge to what could've been his death rather than join him. Vader then reached out to Luke on the Falcon to try one more time to recruit him. Luke ended their connection twice and started mumbling about Kenobi having kept the truth from him.

Vader walked away dejected when the Falcon hit hyperspace. Luke wasn't going to join the dark side willingly. The Emperor would either be the one to convert Luke (as he had Anakin), or he'd have to kill him. To me, those are the only realistic outcomes left to Vader between ESB and ROTJ. From watching it in the theater in 1983 to watching it now almost 40 years later, there was never a disconnect for me with Vader's change in character. Seemed (and still seems) logical given how ESB ended.

Even in that draft that Gary Kurtz refers to in Khev's post, Vader wasn't going to be ruling the galaxy with Luke. The two would only join forces to take the Emperor out, but not as father and son trying to inherit the throne of power. It would be Anakin's redemption for having served the Emperor's evil schemes. Luke would then walk off into the sunset and Leia would be left in that place of power (but as a benevolent queen instead).
 
ROTJ takes way too much grief here nowadays. It wasn't as polished of a film as the first two but it also does some things better, like entertainment and fun :dunno

It had a slug gangster in a dingy old palace full of bizarre creatures and henchmen, a fricking Rancor pit monster, speeder bikes, AT STs, Luke in black with a green saber, a forest battle on the ground and a space battle in the stars, etc etc etc. And to steal a word from that Netflix documentary, it was the most toyetic movie ever made(isn't that why most of us are here?). It was fun. And it ended the trilogy in a very satisfying manner. 9.3/10
 
You guys have some issues of drawing up things in your head then being entitled for those things to happen and staying bitter all these years later. Let it go. Luke was handled perfectly in TLJ.

''That's different''


It is different. We had dozens of books depicting Luke, Han, Leia post-ROTJ. My opinion of them was informed by official material, not something I imagined in my own head.
 
After proposing to "rule the galaxy as father and son," Vader watched Luke plunge to what could've been his death rather than join him. Vader then reached out to Luke on the Falcon to try one more time to recruit him. Luke ended their connection twice and started mumbling about Kenobi having kept the truth from him.

Vader walked away dejected when the Falcon hit hyperspace. Luke wasn't going to join the dark side willingly. The Emperor would either be the one to convert Luke (as he had Anakin), or he'd have to kill him. To me, those are the only realistic outcomes left to Vader between ESB and ROTJ. From watching it in the theater in 1983 to watching it now almost 40 years later, there was never a disconnect for me with Vader's change in character. Seemed (and still seems) logical given how ESB ended.

Even in that draft that Gary Kurtz refers to in Khev's post, Vader wasn't going to be ruling the galaxy with Luke. The two would only join forces to take the Emperor out, but not as father and son trying to inherit the throne of power. It would be Anakin's redemption for having served the Emperor's evil schemes. Luke would then walk off into the sunset and Leia would be left in that place of power (but as a benevolent queen instead).
Absolutely right.
:duff
 
If I can live with Han, Fett, and Vader being wasted in ROTJ then I can sure as hell live with Finn being wasted in the ST, lol.
To be fair, there is waste as in trash can alongside your desk, then there is waste as in garbage dump the size of a small city. OT waste is the former, ST waste is the latter. :lol
 
Whoever said Finn was the first black stormtrooper? No one, that’s who.
The character’s race wasn’t written in to it.
The point is he was the first main character who was a stormtrooper turned good and it was a good idea that was poorly executed, like everything else in the sequel trilogy.
Yeah race was immaterial - it could have been an memorable character idea that was instantly wasted within the same movie it is presented in.

I do think that Boyega was wrong for the type of character though, both his age and his persona. Finn should have been a little older, more seasoned Daniel Craig/Idris Elba type (at least those actors as they were 10 years ago,) likeable but with a past, not this simpler, golly-gosh younger guy. Like an anti-Han Solo.

II would have loved to have seen what Boyega would have done with the idea that Finn eventually turned back to the FO and betrays his new friends though. Finally some edge to the ST.
 
It is different. We had dozens of books depicting Luke, Han, Leia post-ROTJ. My opinion of them was informed by official material, not something I imagined in my own head.
That certainly is a good point to demonstrate where your (and my) expectations came from but we're the ones who chose to so rigidly adhere ourselves to those expectations to then be let down when they weren't met. The people who like the ST are the ones who decided to 'let go'.
 
After proposing to "rule the galaxy as father and son," Vader watched Luke plunge to what could've been his death rather than join him. Vader then reached out to Luke on the Falcon to try one more time to recruit him. Luke ended their connection twice and started mumbling about Kenobi having kept the truth from him.

Vader walked away dejected when the Falcon hit hyperspace. Luke wasn't going to join the dark side willingly. The Emperor would either be the one to convert Luke (as he had Anakin), or he'd have to kill him. To me, those are the only realistic outcomes left to Vader between ESB and ROTJ. From watching it in the theater in 1983 to watching it now almost 40 years later, there was never a disconnect for me with Vader's change in character. Seemed (and still seems) logical given how ESB ended.
Ah yes, I was trying to remember in more detail what arguments I had made the last time this came up. I think I pointed to exactly that moment when Vader turns and silently leaves the bridge after the Falcon escapes into hyperspace. That right there is arguably the start of ROTJ Vader...
 
After proposing to "rule the galaxy as father and son," Vader watched Luke plunge to what could've been his death rather than join him. Vader then reached out to Luke on the Falcon to try one more time to recruit him. Luke ended their connection twice and started mumbling about Kenobi having kept the truth from him.

Vader walked away dejected when the Falcon hit hyperspace. Luke wasn't going to join the dark side willingly. The Emperor would either be the one to convert Luke (as he had Anakin), or he'd have to kill him. To me, those are the only realistic outcomes left to Vader between ESB and ROTJ. From watching it in the theater in 1983 to watching it now almost 40 years later, there was never a disconnect for me with Vader's change in character. Seemed (and still seems) logical given how ESB ended.

Even in that draft that Gary Kurtz refers to in Khev's post, Vader wasn't going to be ruling the galaxy with Luke. The two would only join forces to take the Emperor out, but not as father and son trying to inherit the throne of power. It would be Anakin's redemption for having served the Emperor's evil schemes. Luke would then walk off into the sunset and Leia would be left in that place of power (but as a benevolent queen instead).
I agree, I never saw any kind of disconnect until AFTER the PT. No matter what anyone says, a guys who murders a room full of kids, is not gonna just have a change of heart for some rando guy whom happened to be his son. After PT we saw how brutal Litt’ Ani’s quest for control and power had become.
Now before PT, I could buy Vader’s change of heart, however one line stick I my craw.....”SISTER! So you have a twin sister......” yada yoda Yoda..

Up to that point , it might have been a plausible route, but we see Vader is willing to throw away Luke to get at the sister who he can turn to the DS. Without that moment, I can buy the sudden change of heart.....but with it, Vader once again become irredeemable. Even he reduce of Luke rings hollow due to that line.
 
After proposing to "rule the galaxy as father and son," Vader watched Luke plunge to what could've been his death rather than join him. Vader then reached out to Luke on the Falcon to try one more time to recruit him. Luke ended their connection twice and started mumbling about Kenobi having kept the truth from him.

Vader walked away dejected when the Falcon hit hyperspace. Luke wasn't going to join the dark side willingly. The Emperor would either be the one to convert Luke (as he had Anakin), or he'd have to kill him. To me, those are the only realistic outcomes left to Vader between ESB and ROTJ. From watching it in the theater in 1983 to watching it now almost 40 years later, there was never a disconnect for me with Vader's change in character. Seemed (and still seems) logical given how ESB ended.

Even in that draft that Gary Kurtz refers to in Khev's post, Vader wasn't going to be ruling the galaxy with Luke. The two would only join forces to take the Emperor out, but not as father and son trying to inherit the throne of power. It would be Anakin's redemption for having served the Emperor's evil schemes. Luke would then walk off into the sunset and Leia would be left in that place of power (but as a benevolent queen instead).
Your interpretation is nice in that it gives you a more cohesive trilogy but I still find that that take makes ROTJ less congruous with ESB than what Kurtz revealed as the original plan. I do think that Vader was originally seeking redemption of a sort, but not the full swing to pure "good" that we got. I see him as realizing that running the galaxy like Nazi Germany was bad but his solution wasn't so much to try and turn the Empire into a feel good "Kumbaya" society but rather one that was more free but still fearsome to all who opposed it.

End the destructive conflict, bring order to the galaxy. Since Kurtz revealed that Vader was still heading toward a redemptive arc we can then surmise that peace, order, and yes even a good amount of freedom would have to be included in the mix. Now maybe that freedom would look like Putin's Russia or maybe it'd look like Trump's America. But I definitely don't see him as wanting anything akin to Biden's America, a society based on nothing but "feels" that is weak, crumbling and inviting opposition from emboldened oppressors. Luke and Leia obviously wanted the latter and well the ST happened as a result. ;)

So again I think that Vader's redemption would have had him crossing over into the side of good, but kind of a stern scary good that carried stiff consequences for obstructing law and order. I see his vision of destroying the Emperor with Luke maybe even ending with Vader sitting on a throne in full costume with his son as the prince and heir, ruling over a free society where planets are mostly autonomous but still needing to follow certain guidelines as decreed by the new king/emperor. To me that would all be in line with what we saw in ESB and what Kurtz has shared as well.

I disagree that Vader was "turning" or starting to turn at the end of ESB when he watched the Falcon escape into hyperspace. I think he was beyond angry (and all of his officers could practically feel it in their very souls) but so much so that he decided to just bury it and process this new turn of events in charting his next move for the throne.

I will say this though, TROS definitely makes Vader's actions in ROTJ easier to stomach if you allow that Palps was planning on having Luke kill him so that he could take over his body like he was going to do with Rey. Then Vader's deflection of the attack makes much more sense as he certainly wouldn't have wanted to lose both the allegiance of his son AND give his hated master a brand new body through which to continue his reign.

I also like that Rogue One suggests that Vader possibly DOESN'T want to be much of a hands on ruler, nor does he want to run around the galaxy doing the bidding of another and would prefer to just soak in his rejuvenating bacta fluid 24 hours a day with someone he trusts (like a son) that would leave him alone ruling instead.

All fun things to consider IMO.
 
Last edited:
I disagree that Vader was "turning" or starting to turn at the end of ESB when he watched the Falcon escape into hyperspace. I think he was beyond angry (and all of his officers could practically feel it in their very souls) but so much so that he decided to just bury it and process this new turn of events in charting his next move for the throne.
I never took it as Vader being beyond angry. He had, IMO, mixed feelings about just meeting his son face to face and trying to recruit him. No way an Angry Vader does not make those around him pay some sort of price. There is a sadness to that scene IMO. Was it when Vader started to turn?? I dont know if that was the plan at the time but it comes across that way.
 
I disagree that Vader was "turning" or starting to turn at the end of ESB when he watched the Falcon escape into hyperspace. I think he was beyond angry (and all of his officers could practically feel it in their very souls) but so much so that he decided to just bury it and process this new turn of events in charting his next move for the throne.
It's not about "turning" as much as it is about a conflict within him getting stronger. But I want to start with that final scene on the Executor because I think it was deliberately designed to contrast with how he dealt with every prior instance of anger with his Imperial subordinates. Like JAWS just posted, I just cant see it as a display of anger.

When Vader is angry, he doesn't do double-takes and put his hands behind his back to stride off casually. There's no story purpose to having Vader react that way if it's supposed to give the audience an impression that Vader was seething. From how he handled Captain Antilles, to Motti's mocking, to the incompetence of Ozzel and Needa... Vader's expressions of anger were well established. His demeanor at the end of ESB doesn't convey anything remotely related to that, IMO.

As you alluded to in your post, Anakin's redemption was going to be part of the ultimate resolution to the saga at every stage of writing ROTJ. That includes the planning stages when ESB was being filmed. The redemption can't happen without some type of inner conflict, and seeds of that would need to be planted. This doesn't mean that such an inner conflict needs to be 50/50 between Vader's "Sith" side and Anakin's "Jedi" side. It could be something closer to 95/5. But I believe the seeds of whatever conflict existed were purposely illustrated in that final ESB Vader scene to build upon later.

And yeah, I obviously prefer a seamless flow, and prefer to think that Luke was right in sensing the conflict in Vader before ever turning himself in on Endor. But I honestly believe elements of ESB were absolutely setup for the sequel(s). And Vader's budding inner conflict was one of those.

You can trace everything Vader would've been feeling to the first appearance of the Emperor in ESB. Palpatine wanted Luke killed. It was Vader who suggested that Luke be converted instead, and thereby spared. By the time Vader became familiar with Bespin, his intention was still to freeze/preserve Luke to personally deliver to the Emperor. When their duel starts, Vader follows through exactly with that intention in a fashion that he deemed "all too easy." It wasn't until Luke showed much more potential that I think Vader's wheels started turning on a new ambition for his son. Instead of "he will join us, or die" now Vader was recognizing a new option. Something more like "join *me*" (and overthrow Palpatine).

The longer that duel went on, and the longer Vader had to evaluate Luke, the more he had to deal with the fact that this was his son. Prior to that, Vader was very willing to either turn Luke over to the Emperor or kill him. There was enough disconnect. But on that gantry, after having violently dismembered his son, I think "Don't make me destroy you" had more than one layer to it.

Vader ended up reaching out to Luke to join him in defeating the Emperor. Luke wasn't going to do that, and it became abundantly clear. So, the options returned to 1.) have the Emperor convert Luke, or 2.) have Luke die. The inner conflict would obviously lead to preferring one of those options over the other.

When Palpatine made it clear at the end of ROTJ that turning Luke to the dark side was no longer on the table, Vader had to watch his son being killed. And that was always the line he couldn't cross, and therefore the seed of inner conflict that started when Luke earned Vader's respect as the Bespin duel went on. And I choose to believe that it was more than just respect that Vader discovered himself feeling for Luke. That's why Vader connected with Luke via the Force and their final ESB exchange started: "Luke." "Father!" "Son... come with me."
 
Back
Top