Star Wars: Episode IX - THE RISE OF SKYWALKER

[abake]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

Odd, 'cause I love BvS and intensely dislike TLJ...

As for the time-span building the Death Star from ROTS to ANH, when I first saw ROTS I also thought it was a bit of a discrepancy that the Death Star was already being built and that it took them so long to finish it, whereas it was apparently a matter of years to move much faster on the second one. However, nobody said they hadn't started building the second one long before the first was finished. Sure, it's not mentioned, but then again, the Empire was pretty secretive about the first one, why would it advertise the second one? Also, maybe it was a lot faster building the second one after the experience gained on the first one.

 

[rushmore223]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

...and I hate BVS and love TLJ.

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[ajp4mgs]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

Because you yourself introduced the notion that there's a double standard with regard to RO and TLJ:

You're conflating "justification for" with "execution of" in this case. I thought I was being pretty clear, but I'll take the blame on this for not being clear enough. In a minute, when I respond to Ropen's post, I think you'll have a much clearer sense for what I meant about justifying these movies.

Hmm, I'm not sure why you're getting upset here. You mentioned the perceived double standard with the two films and I countered that notion (tongue in cheek too.)

The tongue-in-cheek nature suggested by a winking emoji kinda gets overridden when it's followed by a statement like, "but the battles don't just fall apart when you think long and hard about them, they often times hit you directly over the head with their stupidity." I trust that you can see where I'd misinterpret how tongue-in-cheek you were being.

And I think it still is...

Well, if we can postpone a TLJ debate for a brief bit, I'd like to continue nerding out one last time about this RO thing.

Although you may (will) disagree, I contend that RO tells us that the small exhaust port Luke fired into at the end of a long and fortified trench would've actually been there *by design* (as a means to destroy the whole station), rather than just by an arrogant Imperial oversight (as we believed for about 40 years).

How do I know that? Because the Alliance/Rebellion would've been using computerized analysis of those DS plans that R2 was carrying. These weren't pirates staring at physical blueprints while confusedly scratching their heads with their hook hands. The Alliance on Yavin had droids and computers with advanced AI beyond anything we have irl. The whole DS layout, and the means by which to reach the reactor, would have been isolated within minutes (if not seconds).

Using context from what we know about SW navigation calculations, and geographic tactical assessments, we know how much they rely on computerized data. So, aiming for the exhaust port tells me that is what the computer analysis determined was the best/only way to exploit Galen's designed vulnerability. You can speculate and assume any other scenario of Galen's if you choose to, but as you've told me before: only go by what you see and hear on screen. Doing so tells us that Galen either designed the most impractical "trap" ever, or the Alliance was riddled with ineptitude (computers, droids, pilots . . . the whole deal).

I think it all boils down to you taking issue with how RO's events have an effect on the Rebel Alliance's and Luke's actions, whereas I (and I believe Khev as well) do not.
Fair enough.

Yes! That sums it up better than I did. Thank you for understanding my point, even if I made it clumsily.

I think Luke's one-in-a-million shot has more luster, if not coherency, when it wasn't a designed flaw built intentionally to be exploited.

So did Galen’s design flaw echoed into the DS2? How did the bothans acquired the information because honestly lando seems to fly directly into the reactor and destroy the power regulator?

The whole Plot is a mess, i mean right at the end of the ROTS, we see a young tarkin hanging out with vader and palpatine, then we are lead to believe it takes them close to 30 years to complete such monumental task because at the beginning of Rogue One, they are barely finishing up the weapons on it, and RO goes straight into ANH, but between Esb and ROTJ, the second death is built in a short ungodly amount of time...

Two Death Stars wasn't a problem during the OT because we didn't know it would take longer than 2 or 3 years to complete one. ROTS ruined that by showing us that, nope, it takes a couple of decades.

And the vulnerability of Death Star reactors was fine when we could assume that you can't build a Death Star any other way (just maybe fortify it better next time - like with the Endor shield). But RO told us that the DS1 reactor posed a special vulnerability by way of intentional design flaw. That would now make any similar DSII flaw a plot/logic problem, since Galen Erso had to go out of his way to make the first reactor unstable. A second unstable reactor is now just ridiculous.

SW movies are like any other movie in this (or a similar) genre. When you scrutinize them too much, you find plenty of the same "problems" that YouTubers are having a field day with on the new ones. What's worse is that each of the five prequels muddles the plot logic of the OT movies more and more. The more they make, the worse it'll get - even when the prequel movie is enjoyable to watch. That's one of the reasons why it's hard for me to see how they are justified so readily by fans when compared to sequels.

 

[abake]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

You're conflating "justification for" with "execution of" in this case. I thought I was being pretty clear, but I'll take the blame on this for not being clear enough. In a minute, when I respond to Ropen's post, I think you'll have a much clearer sense for what I meant about justifying these movies.



The tongue-in-cheek nature suggested by a winking emoji kinda gets overridden when it's followed by a statement like, "but the battles don't just fall apart when you think long and hard about them, they often times hit you directly over the head with their stupidity." I trust that you can see where I'd misinterpret how tongue-in-cheek you were being.



Well, if we can postpone a TLJ debate for a brief bit, I'd like to continue nerding out one last time about this RO thing.

Although you may (will) disagree, I contend that RO tells us that the small exhaust port Luke fired into at the end of a long and fortified trench would've actually been there *by design* (as a means to destroy the whole station), rather than just by an arrogant Imperial oversight (as we believed for about 40 years).

How do I know that? Because the Alliance/Rebellion would've been using computerized analysis of those DS plans that R2 was carrying. These weren't pirates staring at physical blueprints while confusedly scratching their heads with their hook hands. The Alliance on Yavin had droids and computers with advanced AI beyond anything we have irl. The whole DS layout, and the means by which to reach the reactor, would have been isolated within minutes (if not seconds).

Using context from what we know about SW navigation calculations, and geographic tactical assessments, we know how much they rely on computerized data. So, aiming for the exhaust port tells me that is what the computer analysis determined was the best/only way to exploit Galen's designed vulnerability. You can speculate and assume any other scenario of Galen's if you choose to, but as you've told me before: only go by what you see and hear on screen. Doing so tells us that Galen either designed the most impractical "trap" ever, or the Alliance was riddled with ineptitude (computers, droids, pilots . . . the whole deal).



Yes! That sums it up better than I did. Thank you for understanding my point, even if I made it clumsily.

I think Luke's one-in-a-million shot has more luster, if not coherency, when it wasn't a designed flaw built intentionally to be exploited.



Two Death Stars wasn't a problem during the OT because we didn't know it would take longer than 2 or 3 years to complete one. ROTS ruined that by showing us that, nope, it takes a couple of decades.

And the vulnerability of Death Star reactors was fine when we could assume that you can't build a Death Star any other way (just maybe fortify it better next time - like with the Endor shield). But RO told us that the DS1 reactor posed a special vulnerability by way of intentional design flaw. That would now make any similar DSII flaw a plot/logic problem, since Galen Erso had to go out of his way to make the first reactor unstable. A second unstable reactor is now just ridiculous.

SW movies are like any other movie in this (or a similar) genre. When you scrutinize them too much, you find plenty of the same "problems" that YouTubers are having a field day with on the new ones. What's worse is that each of the five prequels muddles the plot logic of the OT movies more and more. The more they make, the worse it'll get - even when the prequel movie is enjoyable to watch. That's one of the reasons why it's hard for me to see how they are justified so readily by fans when compared to sequels.

Well, as I said earlier, we don't know when they started building the second Death Star. At no point (that I can remember) is it said in ANH that the Death Star is the only one. Of course, we assume, as does the Rebellion, that it is so, but it's never said. Thus, seeing the Death Star being built in ROTS doesn't contradict anything, as we merely supposed there was only one Death Star and building it took only a few years...
As for the built in flaw, there's two things to take into consideration:
1. We don't know for sure the Empire had an exact knowledge of why the Death Star blew up, since Vader wasn't with Tarkin when he is informed the the rebel attack had been analyzed and deemed dangerous. He could've made an educated guess, but...
2. After ROTS we must assume the second Death Star had been in construction for a while when the first one was destroyed, so whatever flaws it had were already built into it. Regardless, the Rebellion had to modify the plan slightly, flying into the superstructure to fire at the reactor. And let's face it, when you fire point blank at a reactor, there's always the chance it'll blow up...

However, I do have a doubt... is it explicitly mentioned in any part of RO that there is just one Death Star?

 

[Prime Clone]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

Odd, 'cause I love BvS and intensely dislike TLJ...

...and I hate BVS and love TLJ.

And I love 'em both!

Oh well, there goes that theory.

 

[jye4ever]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

This ANH Leia quote still contradicts RO:

LEIA: At least the information in R2 is still intact.

HAN: What's so important? What's he carrying?

LEIA: The technical readouts of that battle station. I only hope that when the data's analyzed a weakness can be found. It's not over yet.


To make it fit better with RO I just imagine that Galen’s specific plan didn’t get fully translated to Leia.

She’s specifically said “I only hope a weakness can be found”.

Wouldn’t she know what that weakness was since the data came directly from Galen himself.

 

[abake]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

But did she know?
In RO we're only told that Senator Organa is sending her to retrieve the plans, right? As far as I can remember, it's never said that she knows what exactly is in those plans.

 

[Wor-Gar]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

She just got rescued by two idiots (in her mind). Why would she even let on that there's a secret weakness in the Death Star?

She could have said "I only hope that weakness can be found"... but then that opens a whole conversation about 'what weakness', etc. Maybe she didn't want to bother and just ended the conversation easily.

Not even Dodonna let's his own pilots know that. He says that they've found a weakness too. Doesn't mean they didn't find Galen's sabotage -- just means the higher ups don't want to get into it.

I buy it.

I buy it more than Ben's: "He betrayed and murdered your father." And... "You can't win, Darth"

 

[Khev]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

As for the time-span building the Death Star from ROTS to ANH, when I first saw ROTS I also thought it was a bit of a discrepancy that the Death Star was already being built and that it took them so long to finish it, whereas it was apparently a matter of years to move much faster on the second one. However, nobody said they hadn't started building the second one long before the first was finished. Sure, it's not mentioned, but then again, the Empire was pretty secretive about the first one, why would it advertise the second one? Also, maybe it was a lot faster building the second one after the experience gained on the first one.

I have no problem assuming that two Death Stars were under construction simultaneously (which would also explain why they were too far along on the second one to not circumvent Galen's flaw.) Even McQuarrie himself conceptualized that idea:

Although you may (will) disagree, I contend that RO tells us that the small exhaust port Luke fired into at the end of a long and fortified trench would've actually been there *by design* (as a means to destroy the whole station), rather than just by an arrogant Imperial oversight (as we believed for about 40 years).

How do I know that? Because the Alliance/Rebellion would've been using computerized analysis of those DS plans that R2 was carrying. These weren't pirates staring at physical blueprints while confusedly scratching their heads with their hook hands. The Alliance on Yavin had droids and computers with advanced AI beyond anything we have irl. The whole DS layout, and the means by which to reach the reactor, would have been isolated within minutes (if not seconds).

Using context from what we know about SW navigation calculations, and geographic tactical assessments, we know how much they rely on computerized data. So, aiming for the exhaust port tells me that is what the computer analysis determined was the best/only way to exploit Galen's designed vulnerability. You can speculate and assume any other scenario of Galen's if you choose to, but as you've told me before: only go by what you see and hear on screen. Doing so tells us that Galen either designed the most impractical "trap" ever, or the Alliance was riddled with ineptitude (computers, droids, pilots . . . the whole deal).

Yep, obviously I don't think that the film suggests your take on Galen's plan but hey, who says you have to agree with me. I think I've stated my view of it enough (for now, heh heh) so we can just disagree on that one.

This ANH Leia quote still contradicts RO:

LEIA: At least the information in R2 is still intact.

HAN: What's so important? What's he carrying?

LEIA: The technical readouts of that battle station. I only hope that when the data's analyzed a weakness can be found. It's not over yet.


To make it fit better with RO I just imagine that Galen’s specific plan didn’t get fully translated to Leia.

She’s specifically said “I only hope a weakness can be found”.

Wouldn’t she know what that weakness was since the data came directly from Galen himself.

Yeah, as others have said you kind of have to assume that since Leia wasn't present during Jyn's speech on Yavin that she didn't have the full story as to why they were going after the plans when she arrived at Scarif.

RO definitely isn't a perfect fit with SW but its so good that I have no problem handwaving away the 5% that doesn't fit. As Wor-Gar said even the OT films aren't perfect fits with one another so I see no reason to stress about a minor detail or line here and there.

 

[Prime Clone]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

My main problem is the transmissions being "beamed", not hand-delivered.

 

[Popnfresh98]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

I have no problem assuming that two Death Stars were under construction simultaneously (which would also explain why they were too far along on the second one to not circumvent Galen's flaw.) Even McQuarrie himself conceptualized that idea:

I await the imminent release of the art in which 2 Starkiller Bases are under construction at the same time

Since it’s going to have to be even bigger to keep up the pattern... perhaps it’ll be a full on Dyson sphere.

(Love that McQuarrie art tho)

 

[jye4ever]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

She just got rescued by two idiots (in her mind). Why would she even let on that there's a secret weakness in the Death Star?

She could have said "I only hope that weakness can be found"... but then that opens a whole conversation about 'what weakness', etc. Maybe she didn't want to bother and just ended the conversation easily.

Not even Dodonna let's his own pilots know that. He says that they've found a weakness too. Doesn't mean they didn't find Galen's sabotage -- just means the higher ups don't want to get into it.

I buy it.

I buy it more than Ben's: "He betrayed and murdered your father." And... "You can't win, Darth"

So you’re saying that the cartoon Khev posted of Han and Luke being portrayed as idiots was correct then.

 

[Wor-Gar]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

My main problem is the transmissions being "beamed", not hand-delivered.

Well if Vader said "Several transmissions were beamed very close to this ship by rebel spies", it would sound awkward.

 

[ajp4mgs]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

Well, as I said earlier, we don't know when they started building the second Death Star.

There have been recent novels written (in current canon) that make it very clear that the DS2 was built *after* the destruction of the first one. If you put any stock in canon stories that aren't actual movies, then the timeline for the construction of DS2 is not in any doubt at all.

Even if you want to ignore the novels & comics, the context in RO (especially the dialogue between Krennic and Tarkin) leaves little doubt that there was no second Death Star being built. The first one was a huge risk, took a ton of resources that were difficult to procure, and its viability was in question all the way up until the test on Jedha. Building a second one before the headache-riddled first one even reached proof-of-concept stage would stretch the limits of credibility too far, imo.

As for the built in flaw, there's two things to take into consideration:
1. We don't know for sure the Empire had an exact knowledge of why the Death Star blew up, since Vader wasn't with Tarkin when he is informed the the rebel attack had been analyzed and deemed dangerous. He could've made an educated guess, but...

It was a bit more than an educated guess by Vader. In RO, this is what he tells Krennic: "I expect you to not rest until you can assure the Emperor that Galen Erso has not compromised this weapon in any way." Vader is telegraphing his suspicion (and good judgment). So, what/who do you think Vader and Palpatine would blame for the flaw in the DS1 design, given that line of dialogue?

Vader and Palpatine would've more than merely suspected Galen Erso having compromised the first DS. After its destruction, the Empire would've analyzed their own schematics, and Galen's work, to spot the flaw.

2. After ROTS we must assume the second Death Star had been in construction for a while when the first one was destroyed, so whatever flaws it had were already built into it.

The DS2 would not have been built with the same flaw of Galen Erso's intentionally-designed unstable reactor module. And the new novels even go so far as to state that the DS2 was designed with micro exhaust tubes instead of the 2-meter exhaust port that Luke exploited in ANH. The design was different; and not just by being bigger and more powerful.

Regardless, the Rebellion had to modify the plan slightly, flying into the superstructure to fire at the reactor. And let's face it, when you fire point blank at a reactor, there's always the chance it'll blow up...

Yes, a very good point. The fact that the Rebellion got to DS2 before it could be fully fortified is the only saving grace for that aspect of the plot logic after the various prequels redefined everything. By getting there early, it can be argued that the Rebellion wouldn't need an unstable module to exploit this time. They just flew right into the damned thing and bombarded the reactor core. So, you're right; that part of ROTJ can still make sense.

And I love 'em both!

Oh well, there goes that theory.

This ANH Leia quote still contradicts RO:

LEIA: At least the information in R2 is still intact.

HAN: What's so important? What's he carrying?

LEIA: The technical readouts of that battle station. I only hope that when the data's analyzed a weakness can be found. It's not over yet.


To make it fit better with RO I just imagine that Galen’s specific plan didn’t get fully translated to Leia.

She’s specifically said “I only hope a weakness can be found”.

Wouldn’t she know what that weakness was since the data came directly from Galen himself.

They must've edited down Leia's dialogue in RO. It probably would've gone like this:

 

[abake]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

Very good points!
I don't care for anything outside the movies, but if you accept other media as canon, then the timing of building the first vs. the second could be a bit problematic.
However, once you have the facilities and the know-how, the entire process could be faster.

As for Vader's knowledge of Erso's treason, that doesn't mean he knew what the flaw was. But yes, the Empire would've checked the design.

Ah, the wonders of geeking out over Star Wars...

 

[Prime Clone]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

Well if Vader said "Several transmissions were beamed very close to this ship by rebel spies", it would sound awkward.

True dat!

The length of time taken to build the Death Star, and the extent of redesign of the original plans, helps distance it from the prequels for the PT haters. Obviously the original Trade Federation designs required extensive modification.

 

[xipotec]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

SW movies are like any other movie in this (or a similar) genre. When you scrutinize them too much, you find plenty of the same "problems" that YouTubers are having a field day with on the new ones. What's worse is that each of the five prequels muddles the plot logic of the OT movies more and more. The more they make, the worse it'll get - even when the prequel movie is enjoyable to watch. That's one of the reasons why it's hard for me to see how they are justified so readily by fans when compared to sequels.

This is perfectly said. I have been saying this to the critics of the ST plot since the beginning. Its no worse than all the PT stuff, and alot of the OT stuff. When someone starts in on the “implausibility” of some plot point, I attempt to point out similar plot devices from OT and PT, but the excuses as to why those ridicules plot points are acceptable and the ST ones are not get tiresome.

In the end, I chalk it up to 40 years of explanation in all forms of media, that fans now think was there right from the start, (and the rose colored glasses that all OT purists have worn since childhood.)





Sent from the inside of a giant slug in outer space.....

 

[YoNoSe]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

Do Rose-tinted glasses make everything look insufferably self righteous?

 

[punisher1974]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

Just imagine if 2 Death Stars were being built. Be like giant gonads in space. They imperials would never have lived it down.

 

[rushmore223]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

Just imagine if 2 Death Stars were being built. Be like giant gonads in space. They imperials would never have lived it down.

Would definitely bring a stop to any debate as to who has the biggest pair.

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