Star Wars Live Action and Clone Wars TV shows

[Khev]

I actually really like how Maul was portrayed in this episode.

However...

...I'm really starting to feel like the creators of this show intend to milk every main character with no real climax in site. It's starting to feel like a comic book where the good guys and bad guys fight and EVERY duel ends in a draw with no lives lost. That isn't very interesting to me. Shouldn't the events of Revenge of the Sith be right around the corner at this point? It doesn't feel like it.

I really think there should have been a changing of the guard with Asajj when Savage showed up. Dooku or someone (like Grievous a few episodes back) should have taken her out. I can't believe she's still around.

As I said I *do* like Maul as he's portrayed on the show but I have a feeling him and Obi-Wan are going to duel about 30 more times over the next few seasons with someone always getting away when the other gets the upper hand.

 

[Spartan Rex]

Part one was a complete waste. Part two was just weird.

Spoiler

They set things up like it's going to be this big epic battle, then Kenobi gets taken out with a few punches in a matter of seconds. Then Ventress shows up and they decide they're "outmatched" and make a run for it? After they detached the cockpit, Maul and Opress were stranded in the cargo hold, no? Why not blow it up? If there are no weapons, why not hang around and call in reinforcements?

The whole thing made no sense, was anti-climatic, and overall, a wasted opportunity.

 

[Khonsu70]

I hope that it's Anakin that kills Maul and Savage-- but to do so he has to go to a really dark place (something that Obi Wan wasn't willing to do)... a hint of things to come.

I agree, though I wanna see Maul take a crack at Palpatine as well - if Maul is pissed at Obi-Wan for cutting him in two, then he must really be ripped at his old master for abandoning him and proceeding with their plans...with Dooku/Tyrannus at his side!

I'd like to see Anakin finish off Maul (maybe at Palpatine's behest?), because it further develops his character descent toward the dark side. It also ties in nicely with Obi Wan's line from ROTS: "Chancellor, Sith Lords are our speciality!" Would make perfect sense if both Obi and Annie had defeated Maul.

Savage is all Asajj's; she owns his ass. Killing Savage is her last bit of housekeeping on the show, the one loose end that needs resolution before she starts her new life. After dispatching him, she should fade off into the sunset, maybe into the outer rim to start rounding up wayward Nightsisters to rebuild their coven.

I'd like to see something like this for season five: a stand-alone episode with the brothers of Dathomir (about 5 episodes into the season), something that fills in the gap in Maul's story in the time immediately before and after TPM, has them taking out a Jedi or two, and leaves the door open for further mayhem. Then a 3-4 episode story arc, the second to last arc for season 5, that is essentially a mini-movie that ties up this storyline decisively forever.

My thoughts on this episode: overall good stuff, love the interplay between Obi wan and Asajj - I'm beginning to think they should just get married and be done with it! . Wish they had had taken 30 seconds to show Asajj intercepting Maul's message for Obi Wan and figuring out Savage is behind this. Would have been a very OT Boba Fett style moment for her and would have explained how she knew where the Hell to find Savage in the first place.

The battle was cool and I LOVED Maul taunting Obi Wan into losing his cool - that never happens! Interesting that Obi Wan's failure to save Qui Gon is the one sore spot that can send him over the edge.

The end of the episode was soft, for all the reason others have mentioned; thought it would be more intense, the whole thing with Maul and Savage adrift in space, yet no follow up by Obi Wan and Asajj calling in reinforcements. Could have been better.

Pretty happy with this story so far - time to move on to other things for a bit before revisiting it, though.

 

[GodzillaSpawn]

Savage is all Asajj's; she owns his ass. Killing Savage is her last bit of housekeeping on the show, the one loose end that needs resolution before she starts her new life. After dispatching him, she should fade off into the sunset, maybe into the outer rim to start rounding up wayward Nightsisters to rebuild their coven.

Hah, not gonna happen. Not in a fair one-on-one fight anyway. Star Wars purists may like Asajj Ventress more, and understandably so, but Savage Opress is a hugely popular character for the shows main target audience. Besides that, but he already seems to be stronger than Ventress and continues to grow stronger at a fast rate. If Dooku and the jedi are fearful of Savage, then he must be a bigger threat than Asajj. And from what happened on the finale, Savage had his way with Ventress. If Savage doesn't survive past the end of the show, then I'd be hard pressed to imagine Ventress will be alive past Revenge of the Sith. I think all powerful force users will bite the dust so when Vader rises, there is a feeling that he is the basically the last one left (like Tarkin proposes in ANH).

 

[thenammagazine]

Hah, not gonna happen. Not in a fair one-on-one fight anyway. Star Wars purists may like Asajj Ventress more, and understandably so, but Savage Opress is a hugely popular character for the shows main target audience. Besides that, but he already seems to be stronger than Ventress and continues to grow stronger at a fast rate. If Dooku and the jedi are fearful of Savage, then he must be a bigger threat than Asajj. And from what happened on the finale, Savage had his way with Ventress. If Savage doesn't survive past the end of the show, then I'd be hard pressed to imagine Ventress will be alive past Revenge of the Sith. I think all powerful force users will bite the dust so when Vader rises, there is a feeling that he is the basically the last one left (like Tarkin proposes in ANH).

And yet canonically, two of the most powerful, Obi Wan and Yoda were still alive.

 

[Darth Caedus]

And yet canonically, two of the most powerful, Obi Wan and Yoda were still alive.

Well, both are not true. In the EU, Palpy and Vader are the only True SITH in the galaxy, but they have plenty of force users and Sith Acolytes around them(Mara Jade for example). There were even rumors that Palpy's Red Imperial Guards are brainwashed force users doing Palpy's bidding.

Even with Obi-Wan and Yoda, they weren't the only Jedi left; there were plenty of them hiding around in the galaxy, unable to do anything about Palpy.

 

[thenammagazine]

Well, both are not true. In the EU, Palpy and Vader are the only True SITH in the galaxy, but they have plenty of force users and Sith Acolytes around them(Mara Jade for example). There were even rumors that Palpy's Red Imperial Guards are brainwashed force users doing Palpy's bidding.

Even with Obi-Wan and Yoda, they weren't the only Jedi left; there were plenty of them hiding around in the galaxy, unable to do anything about Palpy.

Hence the word "canonically." I'm well aware of the EU and enjoy many of the books and comics from it, but as far as Georgie's concerned, it's not canon until he says it is (I lost the Republic Commandos stories as potential canon ).

 

[Khonsu70]

Hah, not gonna happen. Not in a fair one-on-one fight anyway. Star Wars purists may like Asajj Ventress more, and understandably so, but Savage Opress is a hugely popular character for the shows main target audience. Besides that, but he already seems to be stronger than Ventress and continues to grow stronger at a fast rate. If Dooku and the jedi are fearful of Savage, then he must be a bigger threat than Asajj. And from what happened on the finale, Savage had his way with Ventress. If Savage doesn't survive past the end of the show, then I'd be hard pressed to imagine Ventress will be alive past Revenge of the Sith. I think all powerful force users will bite the dust so when Vader rises, there is a feeling that he is the basically the last one left (like Tarkin proposes in ANH).

Somehow, some way, I believe Asajj will take out Savage, even if she has to fight dirty. I'd like for her to survive, but it may cost her her life. It simply makes sense thematically for her to be the instrument of his demise, since she feels responsible for creating this monster to begin with. It's kind of like Frankenstein and his monster.

It may take a combined effort to take down Maul, he is rage and vengeance personified, a skilled and deadly former Sith apprentice, and a threat to Jedi and Sith alike.

And I still want to know what Mother Talzin's angle is, she seems to be "helping" every child of Dathomir, even when they're hell-bent on killing each other...?

 

[GodzillaSpawn]

Somehow, some way, I believe Asajj will take out Savage, even if she has to fight dirty. I'd like for her to survive, but it may cost her her life. It simply makes sense thematically for her to be the instrument of his demise, since she feels responsible for creating this monster to begin with. It's kind of like Frankenstein and his monster.

It may take a combined effort to take down Maul, he is rage and vengeance personified, a skilled and deadly former Sith apprentice, and a threat to Jedi and Sith alike.

And I still want to know what Mother Talzin's angle is, she seems to be "helping" every child of Dathomir, even when they're hell-bent on killing each other...?

I just don't see it. If anybody, I feel like a bigger player is going to have to take out Savage. Unless something happens where they kill each other or something corny like that (in a far-fetched attempt to please everybody), I just think they have built Savage too far up to be killed by Ventress. The show slowly seems to be implying that Savage (and Maul, in a way) are just too much for one person.

While you think it should be Ventress because she in essence created him, I think Savage will be the key to his own destiny. I think somewhere along the way he realizes what not only Asajj did to him but also Mother Talzin. He may force Asajj to run away (or kill her), and he may kill Talzin too (like how Vader caught Palpatine in RotJ). I think due to his honorable past, he somehow will end up doing something heroic, even if he tragically sacrifices his own life. I see Savage as a tragic character, maybe at times even an anti-hero (of course, that's if you run with the idea that keeps popping up that the jedi and sith aren't much different).

I could be way off as well. But after all the hype and build up for Savage Opress and his power, it would honestly be superfluous really to have him be killed by Asajj Ventress, whom I feel has been made second-fiddle to the zabrak duo. For storyline sake, I see only Anakin (as his powers increase) probably being strong enough to kill Savage. And he still might need help. Hell, maybe the zabraks turn on each other.

 

[GodzillaSpawn]

And yet canonically, two of the most powerful, Obi Wan and Yoda were still alive.

Well, both are not true. In the EU, Palpy and Vader are the only True SITH in the galaxy, but they have plenty of force users and Sith Acolytes around them(Mara Jade for example). There were even rumors that Palpy's Red Imperial Guards are brainwashed force users doing Palpy's bidding.

Even with Obi-Wan and Yoda, they weren't the only Jedi left; there were plenty of them hiding around in the galaxy, unable to do anything about Palpy.

I could have been more clear. I think the powerful force users in this cartoon will kick the bucket. I hope they don't. But to have the feeling of hopelessness that the jedi have at the end of Revenge of the Sith, you can't have Asajj Ventress running around as a potential free agent, or Savage Opress potentially foiling everybody's plans, and certainly not Maul. When A New Hope first came out, it seemed as though Obi Wan was the last of the jedi. Then we were introduced to Yoda, who was powerful but too old and weak to save the galaxy himself. It wasn't until all the EU stuff came out that we learned of all the force users surviving.

Which naturally has always made me question why nobody else did anything. I mean even at the end of Revenge of the Sith, I didn't understand why Yoda and Obi Wan gave up so quickly. They didn't even know Darth Vader was around, Yoda almost beat Sidious. They should have teamed up and jumped the emperor. Obi Wan almost beat Anakin before he lost all his limbs...he would have kicked Vader's ass. It was all kind of stupid if you ask me..

 

[GodzillaSpawn]

Spoiler

OK, so you have the two most wanted by the Jedi floating out in space in a cargo hold. Unless the hold has an auxillary cockpit, I'd be calling the Jedi to haul those Zabraks back to Coriscant!

Thought it was kinda anti-climactic. BRUTAL what Maul did to the kiddies. Obi-Wan was an idiot not to bring Anakin along. I did find interesting that Maul seemed to know about the plan to start the war with the Clone Army.

Considering that Savage specifically asks Maul if they "should go after them?", it would seem that they aren't just stuck being stranded in space

 

[Khonsu70]

While you think it should be Ventress because she in essence created him, I think Savage will be the key to his own destiny. I think due to his honorable past, he somehow will end up doing something heroic, even if he tragically sacrifices his own life. I see Savage as a tragic character, maybe at times even an anti-hero (of course, that's if you run with the idea that keeps popping up that the jedi and sith aren't much different).

? While I agree that savage is tragic I see him as neither a hero nor anti-hero. He kills (or allows Maul to kill) innocent people indiscriminately, just to draw one guy into a trap. He snaps King Katunko's neck when even Dooku wants him alive. He kills his brother on Asajj's say-so. The epsiode where he first sees real action is called "Monster". A character can be both tragic and a villain. He may have a change of heart, or he may not. Asajj is already there, she is not exactly "good", but she is no longer "evil". The Dark Horse comics have her sailing off into deep space, turning her back on both Jedi and Sith forever. I could see the show doing something similar, in pursuit of lost Nightsisiters, but she ain't gonna do that while Savage is still alive. While he is out there killing and being evil, it's on her head. Yes, Savage bested her in this last battle, but Maul bested Obi Wan as well, even though we all know Obi Wan is capable of defeating Maul. This really could go anywhere, but I really want to see Asajj to take out Savage, whatever the cost...

 

[GodzillaSpawn]

? While I agree that savage is tragic I see him as neither a hero nor anti-hero. He kills (or allows Maul to kill) innocent people indiscriminately, just to draw one guy into a trap. He snaps King Katunko's neck when even Dooku wants him alive. He kills his brother on Asajj's say-so. The epsiode where he first sees real action is called "Monster". A character can be both tragic and a villain. He may have a change of heart, or he may not. Asajj is already there, she is not exactly "good", but she is no longer "evil". The Dark Horse comics have her sailing off into deep space, turning her back on both Jedi and Sith forever. I could see the show doing something similar, in pursuit of lost Nightsisiters, but she ain't gonna do that while Savage is still alive. While he is out there killing and being evil, it's on her head. Yes, Savage bested her in this last battle, but Maul bested Obi Wan as well, even though we all know Obi Wan is capable of defeating Maul. This really could go anywhere, but I really want to see Asajj to take out Savage, whatever the cost...

Everything Im saying though regarding Savage being a tragic character is due to what he was before Asajj and Talzin came into his life. He seemed like a whole different character, with a whole different state of mind. All your examples come after Savage has been transformed into this monster (but snapping that little Watto king guy's neck was an accident). Like I said after last week's episode, even to innocent people in the diner, Savage is a jerk. But I dont think he was always like that. Yes, he broke out of Asajj's control, but he clearly is still being used by Talzin, who turned him into a hulk-like fighter, made him snap his brother's neck, and placed him under the merciless "care" of Ventress. If Savage finds out, or somehow remembers, who he used to be or what he has been made to do (and what has been taken from him), then he would not be very pleased with Talzin or Ventress.

And I'm of the crowd that says Maul bested Obi Wan in the first fight, but let victory slip from his hands. I think Maul is the superior combatant, and I always have. Like many sith, overconfidence is typically a byproduct. But like Palpatine said in the novel, it was simply a matter of circumstance and rotten luck that Maul was defeated, not because he wasn't more skilled.

 

[automaton]

I could have been more clear. I think the powerful force users in this cartoon will kick the bucket. I hope they don't. But to have the feeling of hopelessness that the jedi have at the end of Revenge of the Sith, you can't have Asajj Ventress running around as a potential free agent, or Savage Opress potentially foiling everybody's plans, and certainly not Maul. When A New Hope first came out, it seemed as though Obi Wan was the last of the jedi. Then we were introduced to Yoda, who was powerful but too old and weak to save the galaxy himself. It wasn't until all the EU stuff came out that we learned of all the force users surviving.

Which naturally has always made me question why nobody else did anything. I mean even at the end of Revenge of the Sith, I didn't understand why Yoda and Obi Wan gave up so quickly. They didn't even know Darth Vader was around, Yoda almost beat Sidious. They should have teamed up and jumped the emperor. Obi Wan almost beat Anakin before he lost all his limbs...he would have kicked Vader's ass. It was all kind of stupid if you ask me..

Luke was able to help redeem Anakin not because he was a force user, but because he was his son. you claim Yoda "almost" beat Sidious, but from my point of view, Yoda "almost" didn't get out of the Sidious fight alive. "should have jumped"the Emperor"? please.

 

[GodzillaSpawn]

Luke was able to help redeem Anakin not because he was a force user, but because he was his son. you claim Yoda "almost" beat Sidious, but from my point of view, Yoda "almost" didn't get out of the Sidious fight alive. "should have jumped"the Emperor"? please.

I didn't even mention anything about Luke (that I remember). He obviously was able to help Vader because he was able to get through to him, being his son and all. But yes, the Yoda vs Sidious fight didn't look so one-sided to me. They both seemed to equal each other with the force, from what I remember Yoda just took the nastier fall to the ground, lost his lightsaber, and ran away quick as hell, while Palpatine fell down into his little floating chair. Mace Windu beat the Emperor (and according to the novel, it was pretty clear Windu beat him), why couldn't Yoda and Obi-Wan had they both decided to try one last attempt? Like I said, Obi Wan had just come off of beating a healthy Anakin. Would half-cyborg, less-powerful, ultra-slow Vader beat him this time?

And do you think putting selective words of mine in quotations gives your words more weight? Cause it doesn't, you simply just look like you belong in a GOP debate.

 

[Khonsu70]

Okay, so only Anakin can take out Savage, since Savage is such a penultimate badass that Anakin is the only being in the SW universe who is powerful enough to snuff him- which is a moot point since Obi Wan should have just walked up to Anakin while he was flaming and limbless on Mustafar and put a lightsaber through his head. Then Yoda and Obi Wan could jump Sidious while he was using the Intergalactic Banking Clan ATM, drained his account of all his credits, and stuffed his carcass into the trunk of their speeder and sold it to Watto. The saga would be so much better off for all that...

 

[automaton]

I didn't even mention anything about Luke (that I remember). He obviously was able to help Vader because he was able to get through to him, being his son and all. But yes, the Yoda vs Sidious fight didn't look so one-sided to me. They both seemed to equal each other with the force, from what I remember Yoda just took the nastier fall to the ground, lost his lightsaber, and ran away quick as hell, while Palpatine fell down into his little floating chair. Mace Windu beat the Emperor (and according to the novel, it was pretty clear Windu beat him), why couldn't Yoda and Obi-Wan had they both decided to try one last attempt? Like I said, Obi Wan had just come off of beating a healthy Anakin. Would half-cyborg, less-powerful, ultra-slow Vader beat him this time?

And do you think putting selective words of mine in quotations gives your words more weight? Cause it doesn't, you simply just look like you belong in a GOP debate.

no intent to give my words more weight... they don't need more weight next to your anorexic display.

 

[HeadlessGree]

all valid points....like I said feel free to correct me

 

[thenammagazine]

I could have been more clear. I think the powerful force users in this cartoon will kick the bucket. I hope they don't. But to have the feeling of hopelessness that the jedi have at the end of Revenge of the Sith, you can't have Asajj Ventress running around as a potential free agent, or Savage Opress potentially foiling everybody's plans, and certainly not Maul. When A New Hope first came out, it seemed as though Obi Wan was the last of the jedi. Then we were introduced to Yoda, who was powerful but too old and weak to save the galaxy himself. It wasn't until all the EU stuff came out that we learned of all the force users surviving.

Which naturally has always made me question why nobody else did anything. I mean even at the end of Revenge of the Sith, I didn't understand why Yoda and Obi Wan gave up so quickly. They didn't even know Darth Vader was around, Yoda almost beat Sidious. They should have teamed up and jumped the emperor. Obi Wan almost beat Anakin before he lost all his limbs...he would have kicked Vader's ass. It was all kind of stupid if you ask me..

So you're implying Yoda and Obi Wan aren't in the cartoon?

Luke was able to help redeem Anakin not because he was a force user, but because he was his son. you claim Yoda "almost" beat Sidious, but from my point of view, Yoda "almost" didn't get out of the Sidious fight alive. "should have jumped"the Emperor"? please.

Mace came the closest to destroying Palps and probably would've if not betrayed by Anakin. While Yoda was able to hold his ground for a bit, to me, it looked like he was outmatched.

 

[GodzillaSpawn]

Okay, so only Anakin can take out Savage, since Savage is such a penultimate badass that Anakin is the only being in the SW universe who is powerful enough to snuff him- which is a moot point since Obi Wan should have just walked up to Anakin while he was flaming and limbless on Mustafar and put a lightsaber through his head. Then Yoda and Obi Wan could jump Sidious while he was using the Intergalactic Banking Clan ATM, drained his account of all his credits, and stuffed his carcass into the trunk of their speeder and sold it to Watto. The saga would be so much better off for all that...

Well just kind of shows how wacky the writing was in the prequels. You make a joke out of it, but I don't understand why it was better for Yoda to go into hiding and plan on just dying away and Obi-Wan just to get old. Yoda didn't know Luke would turn out how he would, even in ESB Yoda was hesitant to train him. So in RotS, why would it not be smart for Obi-Wan to link up with Yoda and "take him together", which the jedi seem to be keen on doing against Dooku? And you guys are telling me there are other jedi and force users who survive past RotS, so why not get their help? Plus, Obi-Wan thinks Vader is dead, presumably, so with one sith out of the picture, the jedi don't try to do anything? It makes no sense--one of the dumbest strategic moves in the series, and that says alot.

So you're implying Yoda and Obi Wan aren't in the cartoon?

No, I left them out because we obviously know what happens to them, obviously. They ran away and went into hiding, despite killing Dooku and thinking Darth Vader is a chopped up corpse on Mustafar. So, for twenty or so years, Yoda and Obi Wan are so irrelevant to the story and to the rise of the empire, that they might as well be dead. Now if their are going to be 10 other powerful warriors out there, or jedi, or fallen acolytes or whatnot (which their are because you have Rohm Kota and a few others out there), and nobody decided to band together to stop Palpatine especially when he was vulnerable (instead years and years after), I just think its a lame cop out. But clearly, some of you think that Star Wars is more well-written than I do.